Trouble at the MCXA?

[twodivine]

The way Sanctum works is that only three representatives from each alliance are allowed access at a time, and those three representatives are chosen by each alliance. They were MCXA top gov until they resigned, and until they resigned they had those three spots. So that's not really an issue.

Also that part of neuromancers post you apparently can't take seriously was arguably the most obviously correct part of the entire thing. It's practically a truism.

In a way it can be considered an issue, because of Sam's post to Q, which would of been concealed during that time frame if there was no communication between those leaving and the now transitional government. Fresh could of been out of any loop because of it.

[hizzy]

That's a simple fact. If you look at history, SO many major world problems have their root cause in basic miscommunication or gross stupidity or oversights.

Also, every post I make is serious. Believe me, I would NEVER attempt humor via this particular communication system. See My third point which you so quickly dismiss. Humor is MUCH more easily mistaken as something else then almost any other form of communication. Especially Via the Written Word.

Claiming that "miscommunication" and "misunderstanding" are key culprits is nothing more than a generic press release statement. You don't want to take the blame, but you don't want to come off as a jerk blaming the other guy, so you chalk it up to "misunderstanding". In this case, there was no misunderstanding as you guys never gave MCXA anything to understand. However, as you added into this post, it was probably more due to gross stupidity on TSO's part.

If this was a rare occurrence, one might be a little more willing to hear the "misunderstanding" excuse from your camp. But anyone worth their salt on Planet Bob can see the repetitiveness of TSO's antics. And it all boils down to the same steps;

1) join something awesome

2) once it runs into trouble, run away to something else.

Your GA is complaining that things need to be more transparent, so OF COURSE the perfect solution is to form a new alliance using all but 2 government and senior members. How silly of the GA to ever think of you guys as not being transparent enough and not appreciating you, eh? You sure showed them.

At the very least, MCXA can now redeem itself and walk with it's head high. It seems like the GA finally realized that they were being led around by what can equate to a bucket of shrimp, and they decided to do something about it. Way to prove them right.

[Chickenzilla]

So my only mistake was assuming it was a new thread. Either way, Fresh didn't make his complaint until after this thread was created, so my point stands and you are quibbling over irrelevant details trying to salvage your flawed analysis.

Delta, Fresh was not part of MCXA's top 3 until after TSO was founded and everyone left.

[Emperor José]

Well, it is time for me to make one of my rare big boards appearances. There have been far too many misconceptions, slanders, outright lies and early judgments lately, so I'm going to attempt to clear some of those up. Now, obviously I am no unbiased third party, but I will attempt to detach myself and look at this fairly objectively. I'm sure for many of you who have already condemned TSO, this post will look like a desperate shot at saving our skins, but I write this only to take care of the discrepancies I've read 50 pages worth of.

(Also, all relevant logs are at the bottom of this wall of text )

First of all, I found out about Project 91 (as it was called at the time) on the 13th of February. I was out and about when I got a text from a fellow MCXA gov't member telling me that quite a few members were planning on leaving to start their own alliance. Obviously text messaging is hard to communicate effectively on (160 character limit ftl), so I didn't find out much more of anything until February 14 (I was out late the 13th). Our original time for announcing was April - we would plan carefully and work closely with MCXA to iron out the details and make sure the transition happened without incident.

Then someone leaked everything about our plan, to not only our own members but also other alliances. That seriously screwed up our plan. When I talked to sam on the 16th, he was estimating only two weeks now, due to this. The MCXA general membership was (perhaps understandably) unhappy that many longtime members would be leaving, and hanging around would have only been detrimental to both sides.

Due to high levels of drama llama, flaming, etc., the date was, as of the 17th, moved up to Sunday the 22nd. I began the process of writing our charter, and we worked diligently throughout the week to talk to MCXA leadership (i.e. Fresh, Gopher) and TOP leadership as well. Many of these conversations took place on skype, so obviously I have no logs of them. I did, however, approach Gopherbashi to address some issues with him on the 17th. I had seen some evidence that he was angry at TSO for essentially recruiting from MCXA, so I approached him to try to clear up the issue; I had no intention or desire to harm MCXA or its membership, and I didn't want to leave on bad terms. He assured me that he didn't see it as recruiting, and I felt better about that.

I don't know what more I can say in terms of defending our actions. We didn't leave MCXA high and dry or leave with no warning. We planned for April as a declaration of existence, but that had to be moved up due to our entire plan being leaked. We didn't recruit from MCXA (most members either approached Project 91 about joining, or we simply informed them that it would be happening without actually telling them to join). And we made attempts to clear things up with the MCXA government before we left.

Now, on to maxfiles' post. I will say that you are dead wrong about some things, and full of misconceptions on others. Time to dissect your post.

to help the time line of understanding

I got told about this on the 15th late evening pacific time, by a member of mcxa.

so on the 15th of feb, the rumors started on this. By the 16th they knew they had to act.

Yes, by the 16th we had moved our date forward.

Many members of the mcxa are hurt by these events, people you think you can trust as loyal members up and pull something like this..

To me, I am being a loyal member of MCXA by joining TSO. I loved MCXA for what it was, not its name. When the reason I came to love MCXA in the first place changes, so must I change with it.

Should Top be held accountable, sure they should, only to their treaty and bloc partners, and that's it. The question about TOP is this, did they violate any of their treaties in doing this. If yes, they should be held accountable, if not, then let it alone.

Not sure what you're getting at, so I'll leave that alone.

As for TSO, Their plan was planned out, and it was premeditated, weeks or months in advance to slip one at a time out quietly. TFS and Valashu were supposed to be the first ones. they left on the 11th.. Sam had quietly announced he was stepping down as co-chancellor on the 12th but he would stay a few more days and then make an announcement.. That to me clearly says, I'm planning to betray my alliance when your working on a mass exit strategy to work out over time.

I don't know where you got the idea that we somehow had this plan in place for months. The first I knew about it was the 13th, and I was among the first to know. We didn't plan to have our members slip out slowly - really, someone would notice when 40 long-time members left in the course of a couple months. Sam announced on the 12th (to the General Assembly) that he would step down as Co-Chancellor, yes, but that had nothing to do with Project 91/TSO. And he announced it to the High Council a few days before. (I can't verify/screenshot this, as I am obviously unmasked on the MCXA boards.) In fact, many then-MCXA members at that point attempted to convince sam to keep his position (which they did).

When the plan broke wide open on the 16th they all still ran for government, none of them withdrew from elections, that would also conclude they wanted to do as much damage as possible, by laying waste to the high council, and to the many departments. One in their right mind would say, if your going to leave you should resign from elections. They did not. very few resignations from government actually happened.

There was no malicious intent when no one withdrew from the elections. For one, the elections ENDED on the 16th, and the plan just a few days before had been to announce in April. If there was malicious intent, we could have done many more things. We could have destroyed your forums. We could have deleted your guides, or made ourselves back-door usernames to log into the forums with. We did none of those things. We tried to transition as peacefully and easily as possible. I still love the MCXA, and I harbor no ill will towards her, but I have had to go my separate way :/ There's no way around that for me.

Now, obviously I haven't touched on every criticism of TSO, as my wall of text would be many times longer if I did, but I hope this clears up at least some of your misconceptions. And I will be happy to answer any polite, thoughtful and relevant questions regarding to this issue to the best of my ability.

And logs (threw them all under one quote tag since if I don't I exceed "the allowed number of blocks of quoted text."):

Session Start: Tue Feb 17 22:13:47 2009

Session Ident: Gopherbashi

01[22:13] <Jose[uSN]> Hey

[22:13] <Gopherbashi> This is Gopherbashi, Minister of Everything for the Multicolored Cross-X Alliance. Pulled away from retirement with less than 11 hours to spare.

[22:15] <Gopherbashi> Hello

01[22:17] <Jose[uSN]> Have a couple minutes?

[22:17] <Gopherbashi> While the news is boring, I suppose

[22:17] <Gopherbashi> sup?

01[22:20] <Jose[uSN]> Well, I saw a couple logs from you, including one in which you seemed angry because you felt this new alliance is essentially recruiting from MCXA, so I wanted to have a chance to tell you that that's hte last thing I'm trying to do

01[22:22] <Jose[uSN]> Believe me, MCXA is the alliance I grew to know and love. It's the only true home I ever had on Planet Bob, and the last thing I'd want to do to it is harm it. But the direction MCXA has been going isn't a direction I want to go, and many others feel the same

[22:22] <Gopherbashi> I know

[22:22] <Gopherbashi> If I had a dollar for every log had been passed around, I could afford to retire in RL

[22:22] <Gopherbashi> No worries, Jos

01[22:23] <Jose[uSN]> I know you feel differently from me about this alliance, but I don't want you to feel as if somehow we're an evil group or anything

[22:24] <Gopherbashi> Not at all

[22:28] <Gopherbashi> g2g

01[22:28] <Jose[uSN]> adios

-----------------------------------------------------

01[13:41] <Jose[uSN]> how long, you think? 2 weeks still?

[13:42] <sam[mcxa]> what?

[13:42] <sam[mcxa]> The alliance?

[13:42] <sam[mcxa]> we plan sunday.

01[13:42] <Jose[uSN]> o_O

01[13:42] <Jose[uSN]> kay

[13:42] <sam[mcxa]> Things got screwed up thanks to edited out

01[13:42] <Jose[uSN]> ya

Session Close: Tue Feb 17 13:44:40 2009

-----------------------------------------------------

01[12:14] <Jose[uSN]> so what's the ETA then if not April?

01[12:14] <Jose[uSN]> you said fast, but how fast?

[12:14] <sam[mcxa]> as fast as a pane

[12:14] <sam[mcxa]> 2 weeks?

[12:14] <sam[mcxa]> depends on a few things though

01[12:14] <Jose[uSN]> kk

Session Close: Mon Feb 16 21:05:31 2009

-----------------------------------------------------

[05:55] <sam[mcxa]> You know where weren't planning this until April 1st.

[05:55] <sam[mcxa]> But then edited out came...

[21:38] <Doctor_Fresh[MCXA]> do you plan on going to p91 or whatever?

01[21:38] <Jose[uSN]> Yes. The true spirit of MCXA that I grew to know and love is moving, so I must move with it :/

[21:39] <Doctor_Fresh[MCXA]> well that's disappointing

01[21:40] <Jose[uSN]> MCXA was always my home in CN

01[21:40] <Jose[uSN]> I was in NAAC, NPO and NpO in the past as well

01[21:40] <Jose[uSN]> they never felt like home

01[21:40] <Jose[uSN]> MCXA did

[21:40] <Doctor_Fresh[MCXA]> yeah

[21:41] <Doctor_Fresh[MCXA]> but think about this Jose. Just because some of the people are leaving---mind you, people who you're most familiar with probably, you don't have to leave. you can help bring MCXA back to its glory and help make good changes

01[21:41] <Jose[uSN]> But now...the tight-knit community I loved, Fresh, is moving. The people I know best are migrating. The spirit of MCXA is migrating. I dont' love MCXA for its name. I love it for what it is

01[21:42] <Jose[uSN]> P91 is, to me at any rate, a rebirth of the MCXA I've always loved

01[21:43] <Jose[uSN]> I hate that it has to happen this way, I really do

01[21:43] <Jose[uSN]> But I fear it is unavoidable

[21:44] <Doctor_Fresh[MCXA]> The choice is yours. I can't force you to do one thing or another. I understand what you're saying but I cannot leave MCXA as many of you are. I just can't do it.

01[21:44] <Jose[uSN]> I understand and respect that

01[21:45] <Jose[uSN]> It's simply not the path I feel I need to take

[21:46] <Doctor_Fresh[MCXA]> That's fine.

[21:47] <Doctor_Fresh[MCXA]> I know we didn't get along a lot, but thanks for everything you did Jose and I had a pleasure serving with you during our time in MCXA together.

01[21:49] <Jose[uSN]> Same. Although I often disagreed with your IC persona, I wish you nothing but the best of luck in MCXA and IRL as well

[21:51] <Doctor_Fresh[MCXA]> Thanks.

Session Time: Thu Feb 19 00:00:01 2009

-----------------------------------------------------

Session Start: Tue Feb 17 17:56:10 2009

Session Ident: Francesca

01[17:56] <Jose[uSN]> Hi

[17:56] <Francesca> hey

[17:56] <Francesca> sup?

01[17:57] <Jose[uSN]> mmm, just wanted to say that I don't think I deserve the title 'traitor'

[17:57] <Francesca> i was told that you were and i accepted without question

[17:57] <Francesca> i regret that.

01[17:57] <Jose[uSN]> I don't believe any of us are traitors

[17:57] <Francesca> Jose, i believe what has happened to be a betrayal

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> Hardly

[17:58] <Francesca> what i am upset about is that i didnt go to other people for more information

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> MCXA has lost its way, as much as it pains me to admit it

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> MCXA has always been my h ome

[17:58] <Francesca> but then, i had nobody else to go to.

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> USN doesn't feel anywhere near right

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> NAAC wasn't right

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> NPO wasn't

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> NpO wasn't

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> only MCXA has ever felt right

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> I love the spirit behind MCXA, the members, the community

01[17:58] <Jose[uSN]> That sense of community I especially loved

01[17:59] <Jose[uSN]> It has fallen apart, however

[17:59] <Francesca>

[17:59] <Francesca> i know...

01[17:59] <Jose[uSN]> MCXA is no longer a tightly-knit bunch of friends, as I wish it could be

01[17:59] <Jose[uSN]> MCXA is a ragtag bunch who constantly argues nowadays

01[18:00] <Jose[uSN]> I have been in MCXA for nearly 2 years

01[18:00] <Jose[uSN]> The MCXA I know today is not the MCXA I knew 2 years ago

[18:00] <Francesca> we argue

[18:00] <Francesca> but then again

[18:00] <Francesca> we are loyal to one another.

01[18:00] <Jose[uSN]> The biggest part that pisses me off

[18:00] <Francesca> for instance, i would have gone to ZI for TFS

[18:00] <Francesca> before he left.

01[18:01] <Jose[uSN]> Is the absolute ignorance of some member of the General Assembly. They blindly shout that the High Council is evil

01[18:01] <Jose[uSN]> There is no trust left

01[18:01] <Jose[uSN]> I am a huge proponent of democracy, even on CN

01[18:01] <Jose[uSN]> I believe argument and criticism to be a cornerstone of any democracy

[18:02] <Francesca> mm...

01[18:03] <Jose[uSN]> I really wish it didn't have to come to this, believe me, I do

01[18:04] <Jose[uSN]> This is the only course of action I can see at this point, though

01[18:04] <Jose[uSN]> As for accusations of recruiting from MCXA, that is utterly false

[18:04] <Francesca> i never accused people of recruiting

01[18:05] <Jose[uSN]> Perhaps you haven't, but others have

01[18:05] <Jose[uSN]> :|

[18:05] <Francesca> people like andy rooney

[18:05] <Francesca> who has no idea whats going on

01[18:07] <Jose[uSN]> mmm

01[18:07] <Jose[uSN]> You know I respect you, and always have, but I think in this situation you are severely misguided

[18:07] <Francesca> maybe.

01[18:09] <Jose[uSN]> MCXA lately has grown much too drama-laden, too argumentive, too hostile an environment for me :/

[18:10] <Francesca> i can understand that

01[18:10] <Jose[uSN]> It is not the MCXA I came to know and love That is why I have made the decision to go with the breakaway plan.

[18:11] <Francesca> i'm sorry, but my laptop battery is about to die

[18:11] <Francesca> i'll try come back later

01[18:11] <Jose[uSN]> kk

[Heft]

In a way it can be considered an issue, because of Sam's post to Q, which would of been concealed during that time frame if there was no communication between those leaving and the now transitional government. Fresh could of been out of any loop because of it.

Maybe, but we know that, one way or another, MCXA and Fresh knew about this plan by the time Sam posted.

Delta, Fresh was not part of MCXA's top 3 until after TSO was founded and everyone left.

Perhaps, but that's not incredibly relevant to what the were discussing, I don't think. What it does mean is that Sam got a chance to give his version of events a week before Fresh did, but that doesn't seem to have been a deliberate thing so much as just a side-effect of how access to that forum is controlled.

[General Specific]

Also that part of neuromancers post you apparently can't take seriously was arguably the most obviously correct part of the entire thing. It's practically a truism.

Have to agree with Mr. Hizzy here, including that line was pointless, as it usually is, when people broadly use that line of defense on public boards such as this.

To wit:

3. Many of you are trying your hardest to find Sneaky Devious motives here. Miscommunication and misunderstanding are FAR more likely to be the culprits in this sort of thing... And usually are.

The humor is in the use of "likely," and "usually are" which at best, taking him at his word, tells us that he is guessing about what happened and tells us, his readers, nothing at all about this present situation.

It's just a slap in the face to those reading here, really, unintentional as it may have been.

edit, seem the posts made above while I typed this above bear this out as well.

Edited February 26, 2009 by General Specific

[The Big Bad]

Can someone actually just spill the truth?

No one knows the truth except MCXA and TSO. Everyone else here is just guessing. Well some are just trying cause trouble but they don't know anymore than anyone else, no matter how much they pretend they do.

[Heft]

Have to agree with Mr. Hizzy here, including that line was pointless, as it usually is, when people broadly use that line of defense on public boards such as this.

To wit:

3. Many of you are trying your hardest to find Sneaky Devious motives here. Miscommunication and misunderstanding are FAR more likely to be the culprits in this sort of thing... And usually are.

The humor is in the use of "likely," and "usually are" which at best, taking him at his word, tells us that he is guessing about what happened and tells us, his readers, nothing at all about this present situation.

It's just a slap in the face to those reading here, really, intentional as it may have been.

I think his point is that immediately assuming that those involved were deliberately up to no good or had bad motivations is almost always a mistake, because the truth is that usually people just screw up. It's not a very satisfying answer, but it is a valid point that is very often overlooked, both in the OWF and even in higher, more private conversations. I don't think he was trying to belittle anyone, he was just trying to remind everyone about this little fact of life because he felt that a lot of people were jumping to conclusions. I would like to agree that it wasn't necessary to put in, except that another fact of life is that it is very often necessary to point it out, even when dealing with cogent, intelligent, rational people.

So, again, it's rare that people act out of deliberate malice or ill-intent, and much more common for people to act out of ill-conceived motivations and based on incorrect judgments, or for people to just botch something and screw it up to the point where it looks like malice. Whether that was the case here or not isn't provable either way, but it is something that should be kept in mind in trying to assess why someone did something that, in retrospect, looks really bad.

[Chickenzilla]

Well, it is time for me to make one of my rare big boards appearances. There have been far too many misconceptions, slanders, outright lies and early judgments lately, so I'm going to attempt to clear some of those up. Now, obviously I am no unbiased third party, but I will attempt to detach myself and look at this fairly objectively. I'm sure for many of you who have already condemned TSO, this post will look like a desperate shot at saving our skins, but I write this only to take care of the discrepancies I've read 50 pages worth of.

(Also, all relevant logs are at the bottom of this wall of text )

First of all, I found out about Project 91 (as it was called at the time) on the 13th of February. I was out and about when I got a text from a fellow MCXA gov't member telling me that quite a few members were planning on leaving to start their own alliance. Obviously text messaging is hard to communicate effectively on (160 character limit ftl), so I didn't find out much more of anything until February 14 (I was out late the 13th). Our original time for announcing was April - we would plan carefully and work closely with MCXA to iron out the details and make sure the transition happened without incident.

Then someone leaked everything about our plan, to not only our own members but also other alliances. That seriously screwed up our plan. When I talked to sam on the 16th, he was estimating only two weeks now, due to this. The MCXA general membership was (perhaps understandably) unhappy that many longtime members would be leaving, and hanging around would have only been detrimental to both sides.

Due to high levels of drama llama, flaming, etc., the date was, as of the 17th, moved up to Sunday the 22nd. I began the process of writing our charter, and we worked diligently throughout the week to talk to MCXA leadership (i.e. Fresh, Gopher) and TOP leadership as well. Many of these conversations took place on skype, so obviously I have no logs of them. I did, however, approach Gopherbashi to address some issues with him on the 17th. I had seen some evidence that he was angry at TSO for essentially recruiting from MCXA, so I approached him to try to clear up the issue; I had no intention or desire to harm MCXA or its membership, and I didn't want to leave on bad terms. He assured me that he didn't see it as recruiting, and I felt better about that.

I don't know what more I can say in terms of defending our actions. We didn't leave MCXA high and dry or leave with no warning. We planned for April as a declaration of existence, but that had to be moved up due to our entire plan being leaked. We didn't recruit from MCXA (most members either approached Project 91 about joining, or we simply informed them that it would be happening without actually telling them to join). And we made attempts to clear things up with the MCXA government before we left.

Now, on to maxfiles' post. I will say that you are dead wrong about some things, and full of misconceptions on others. Time to dissect your post.

Yes, by the 16th we had moved our date forward.

To me, I am being a loyal member of MCXA by joining TSO. I loved MCXA for what it was, not its name. When the reason I came to love MCXA in the first place changes, so must I change with it.

Not sure what you're getting at, so I'll leave that alone.

I don't know where you got the idea that we somehow had this plan in place for months. The first I knew about it was the 13th, and I was among the first to know. We didn't plan to have our members slip out slowly - really, someone would notice when 40 long-time members left in the course of a couple months. Sam announced on the 12th (to the General Assembly) that he would step down as Co-Chancellor, yes, but that had nothing to do with Project 91/TSO. And he announced it to the High Council a few days before. (I can't verify/screenshot this, as I am obviously unmasked on the MCXA boards.) In fact, many then-MCXA members at that point attempted to convince sam to keep his position (which they did).

There was no malicious intent when no one withdrew from the elections. For one, the elections ENDED on the 16th, and the plan just a few days before had been to announce in April. If there was malicious intent, we could have done many more things. We could have destroyed your forums. We could have deleted your guides, or made ourselves back-door usernames to log into the forums with. We did none of those things. We tried to transition as peacefully and easily as possible. I still love the MCXA, and I harbor no ill will towards her, but I have had to go my separate way :/ There's no way around that for me.

Now, obviously I haven't touched on every criticism of TSO, as my wall of text would be many times longer if I did, but I hope this clears up at least some of your misconceptions. And I will be happy to answer any polite, thoughtful and relevant questions regarding to this issue to the best of my ability.

And logs (threw them all under one quote tag since if I don't I exceed "the allowed number of blocks of quoted text."):

Soooo what you are saying is that MCXA is falling apart now, and by you guys leaving you forced Gopher out of retirement and back into CN? Great job.

[theArrowheadian]

No one knows the truth except MCXA and TSO. Everyone else here is just guessing. Well some are just trying cause trouble but they don't know anymore than anyone else, no matter how much they pretend they do.

I do too, but I'm not suppose to tell because that would violate the little amount of integrity I have.

[Valashu]

As for TSO, Their plan was planned out, and it was premeditated, weeks or months in advance to slip one at a time out quietly. TFS and Valashu were supposed to be the first ones. they left on the 11th..

Always fun to see somebody who has no clue what he's talking about. "Valashu was supposed to be the first one."

You couldn't be more wrong. The first I heard about any new alliance was the 19th, 5 minutes after hearing about it I told the President of FOK, the alliance I went to after I left MCXA, that I'd be leaving because a new alliance was started. I left because I was sick of the the atmosphere in MCXA. I was not a active member and didn't feel like becoming active in MCXA because of its horrible drama. So I went to FOK. In the end another opportunity arose, a great atmosphere with friends and a challenge.

To sum it up, don't asume things. It makes your whole argument looks bad because it comes down to hearsay. You don't know me well enough to even remotely make such a character judgement of me. Enough people can vouch for me. I would not do such a thing.

Now go back to your useless whining and keep me out of it.

Retirement's a bliss, such things however need correcting.

[Chickenzilla]

Maybe, but we know that, one way or another, MCXA and Fresh knew about this plan by the time Sam posted.

No, he wasn't top 3. Remember, he used to be one of the top 3. Gopher would be new to it? I forget who said that and am too lazy to check my s/s atm.

Also, nice to see Q gov finally has their spin ready.

[King Srqt]

1. Every major member of government that left the MCXA posted an intent to resign at least one week in advance of doing so. With the sole exception of myself, Assuming a Deputy in Foreign Affairs counts. I, personally however, did discuss my intent to leave with Dr. Fresh; Said conversation occurring roughly a week before Exodus. At that time he had already begun planing who would comprise the members of the MCXA's Interim government.

And one week before they left was, correct me if I am wrong, was the day that your plans to form TSO were leaked to the membership. Which tells me you only informed the membership of your intent to resign because they had already found out. Why is it that all these government members ran for re-election while planning to leave the alliance? I don't know about you but when I run for a position in an alliance I am making a commitment to stay at minimum for the length of the term I am running.

Edited February 26, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Emperor José]

And one week before they left was, correct me if I am wrong, the day that your plans to form TSO were leaked to the membership. Which tells me you only informed the membership of your intent to resign because they had already found out. Why is it that all these government members ran for re-election while planning to leave the alliance? I don't know about you but when I run for a position in an alliance I am making a commitment to stay at minimum for the length of the term I am running.

Again, you overlook the fact that we originally planned to announce our existence on the 2nd of April, not the 23rd of February.

[theArrowheadian]

And one week before they left was, correct me if I am wrong, the day that your plans to form TSO were leaked to the membership. Which tells me you only informed the membership of your intent to resign because they had already found out. Why is it that all these government members ran for re-election while planning to leave the alliance? I don't know about you but when I run for a position in an alliance I am making a commitment to stay at minimum for the length of the term I am running.

Like others said the initial plan was to leave in march, but when the leak happened it accelerated the plan. Which still lacks some sense seeing as they would be leaving mid-term instead of post elections.

[Kindom of Goon]

we didn't recruit from MCXA (most members either approached Project 91 about joining, or we simply informed them that it would be happening without actually telling them to join).

I don't buy it.

You guys obviously wanted it to be kept a secret so its incredibly hard to believe you'd go around telling 40+ people unless you wanted them to join you.

[blackeagle]

Soooo what you are saying is that MCXA is falling apart now, and by you guys leaving you forced Gopher out of retirement and back into CN? Great job.

As jose said, there was no intention of founding the TSO this early. Had we not been rushed gopher would have been long retired by april.

I do too, but I'm not suppose to tell because that would violate the little amount of integrity I have.

no arrow...just no

[King Srqt]

Like others said the initial plan was to leave in march, but when the leak happened it accelerated the plan. Which still lacks some sense seeing as they would be leaving mid-term instead of post elections.

Just as bad, they were still running for government with full intent on leaving while serving office. That is disgusting and treasonous.

[theArrowheadian]

no arrow...just no

Oh you know what I'm referring to then?

[Heft]

No, he wasn't top 3. Remember, he used to be one of the top 3. Gopher would be new to it? I forget who said that and am too lazy to check my s/s atm.

Also, nice to see Q gov finally has their spin ready.

No, he wasn't top 3. That's irrelevant to what I said. Sam didn't post in Sanctum until MCXA (and Fresh) learned about what their plans. I'm not sure how MCXA and Fresh originally learned of their plans, or exactly when, but we do know that, somehow, it was before Sam posted in Sanctum. That Sam posted in Sanctum isn't exactly a big deal, as it would have been expected, and early warning of that sort of thing is appreciated. It is true that Fresh couldn't see what Sam posted (assuming sam didn't share that post anywhere else) until he got access a week later, but that does not mean that Fresh (or gopher) was being kept out of the loop, as there wasn't anything in that post that he didn't probably already know about or hadn't heard.

edit- (also, I'm not Q Gov in an appreciable sense anymore)

Edited February 26, 2009 by Heft

[Emperor José]

I don't buy it.

You guys obviously wanted it to be kept a secret so its incredibly hard to believe you'd go around telling 40+ people unless you wanted them to join you.

It wasn't a secret, though. It was leaked only a few days after we began talking about this whole thing, meaning plenty of people were able to make their own decision and ask to join.

[Haflinger]

To me, I am being a loyal member of MCXA by joining TSO. I loved MCXA for what it was, not its name. When the reason I came to love MCXA in the first place changes, so must I change with it.

A fascinating remark.

Here's a question for you: Were you and Arivili being loyal members of USN, the alliance which you "joined" on the way to TSO, by joining TSO?

[Kastro]

Here's a question for you: Were you and Arivili being loyal members of USN, the alliance which you "joined" on the way to TSO, by joining TSO?

Do tell.

[Emperor José]

A fascinating remark.

Here's a question for you: Were you and Arivili being loyal members of USN, the alliance which you "joined" on the way to TSO, by joining TSO?

Ahh, I figured that question was coming as well. Well, I have to pull the same argument I've been using for a while now: when I joined USN I was planning on staying there at least until April. I resigned quite a while before the rest of the MCXA'ers did, and in that time our plans changed. Same goes for Gibur/arivili. I even discussed that with sig to attempt to clear up any misunderstandings, and he did say he wasn't pissed, he just wished I would have stayed.

[Chickenzilla]

Ahh, I figured that question was coming as well. Well, I have to pull the same argument I've been using for a while now: when I joined USN I was planning on staying there at least until April. I resigned quite a while before the rest of the MCXA'ers did, and in that time our plans changed. Same goes for Gibur/arivili. I even discussed that with sig to attempt to clear up any misunderstandings, and he did say he wasn't pissed, he just wished I would have stayed.

Staying until April? Why would you join an alliance you never planned to commit fully to?