Nordlandic Haiku

[Duncan King]

To those who think that tC only lets people off of their lists for "positive PR", then why would they let people like myself off? I certainly never made a thread like this, in fact, coming back was perhaps one of the most un-public things I've done.

Writing an apology in haiku format was one of the conditions for KM's release.

The point is, it's never over. Personally, I think that you, outside this particular paradigm as you are, aren't really aware of what you speak.

My main point in my post was you are currently the member of a 3.4 million NS alliance created by the merger of the Communist Party of Cybernations and the Socialistic Empire while what remains of NoR/NoV is either gone entirely or in Vox. You outlasted the enemy and won in the end.

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

Duncan King--never a member of a nationalist or WUT alliance--has had virtually nothing to do with the Commie-Martens saga, or any relation with Kaiser Martens with the exception for the past three days. If anything, I had to drag DK kicking and screaming to even talk with Martens in a fair and respectable tone.

Thank you for making my point. If you had actually read my post, you would have noticed that my point was that Duncan King, by virtue of standing outside the communist-nationalist conflict, is unqualified to comment on its having ended. By illustrating that his argument, that one side had crushed the other virtually to the point where it would be impossible for it to rebuild, could have been made with equal veracity around October-November 2007, I hoped to illustrate that in this particular conflict, it is impossible for one side to truly win. I hoped to illustrate that the "crushed" side would always eventually rebuild.

If anything, Duncan King has been one of the more neutral members of the CN community when it comes to the Martens saga, and has a perspective not of nationalism or communism, but that of a perspective that allows all members to play the game, regardless of their past--considering they have paid their dues.

It is precisely this disinterested perspective that disqualifies him from commenting on the past and future of the saga. At certain times, for instance from Feb to Oct 2006, the Left was dominant over the Right. From Oct to Nov 2006 there was relative parity, and from then on the Right gained ascendency until May 2007, at which point relative parity was restored. It lasted until Oct 2007, at which point the Right gained complete and utter dominance which was only broken in May 2008. My point was that, from October 2007 to May 2008, the nationalist alliances had "won", that no "victory" was permanent, that no "dues" were ever really paid.

My main point in my post was you are currently the member of a 3.4 million NS alliance created by the merger of the Communist Party of Cybernations and the Socialistic Empire while what remains of NoR/NoV is either gone entirely or in Vox. You outlasted the enemy and won in the end.

And my point was that, in the long view, "winning" is impossible, because there is no "end". There is no doubt in my mind that a nationalist alliance along the lines of NoR would, if formed, garner double our membership in a couple of weeks, and get treaties to match. Just as I'm sure there was no doubt in NoV's mind in late 2007 that eventually the Left would some day try to regroup (though I doubt they envisioned themselves being disbanded before that happened).

EDIT: the English language has a grammar structure for a reason, and we should respect it

Edited February 12, 2009 by Sovyet Gelibolu

[Germanic Republic]

EDIT: Sorry Soviet, didn't mean to drag it on.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Germanic Republic

[Madmonkey24]

He's not a Nazi, let him play the game.

[Cataduanes]

I love how old grudges from over a year ago are still at play here. The ICP Reformation war was June 2007. Yes, it was a scummy thing to do, but it was also a long time ago. Both sides in the IC communist v. nationalist war were guilty of atrocities and considering the size of the International and the fact that NoR and NoV are both dead, the latter being executed by tC, it looks like the IC commies won. I know you may be missing your boogeyman as a common entity is very unifying for a group, but you're still fighting a war with an enemy that no longer exists. You won, enjoy it. The fact that tC granted him peace is a pretty good indicator that some of the OOC stuff that he was accused of wasn't true, either.

KM, I hope you get peace so you can finally stop fighting a long dead war.

I do not think the majority from the 'commie' side of things is holding a grudge afterall like you said we won in the end, but history is there to be remembered and for many of us the ICP reformation war was a key moment, it was one of the main motivating factors in the CPCN which has led to the International you see today. The war ended a while back as far as i am concerned and their is no desire for any sort of witchhunt...its not the commies KM has to worry about in that regards

Edited February 12, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

I do not think the majority from the 'commie' side of things is holding a grudge afterall like you said we won in the end, but history is there to be remembered and for many of us the ICP reformation war was a key moment, it was one of the main motivating factors in the CPCN which has led to the International you see today. The war ended a while back as far as i am concerned and their is no desire for any sort of witchhunt...its not the commies KM has to worry about in that regards

Is this complacency? Time to fire up the old reeducation spas.

[Cataduanes]

i prefer to think of it as us (the commies) being vigilant but not vengeful .. but your right my revolutionary edge must be getting blunt, time for re-ed!!!

Edited February 12, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Einswald]

martens ability to ferment responces to his topics never ceases to impress.

bravo

[Cataduanes]

credit were credit is due, Martens is a subject worth discussing (Note to my Comrades: Thats right i said it! )

Edited February 12, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Nemhauser]

If such instances had been reported, he'd most likely be banned from the game. And i'm pretty sure he knows that.

What we have as cold hard is the fact that stormfront (white nationalist website) members with thousands of posts and proper knowledge of the website claim that they used NoR for recruiting

Ah yes, and they were met with such enthousiasm that they ended up calling us "race traitors" and "jew lovers". We, as NoR, killed their presence in CN. And we were all happy about it.

[Slayer99]

I thought I'd offer some perspective.

First off, NoV as an alliance was targeted for their actions as an alliance due to their actions or inactions in regards to WS/WN. Using modified Nazi WWII propaganda was an easily identifiable example...something I told NoV leadership back in November/December of 07. Personally, I don't care what an individual's OOC beliefs are...they're irrelevant to what happens on PB. NoV as an alliance did matter because it was knowingly or unknowingly a base of recruitment for WS/WN. I don't want to debate that issue as it's seriously off-topic.

As for Kaiser Martens. My dislike of his character stems from strictly his actions on PB. He never paid for his mistakes...until recently. He hopped from one alliance to another while the alliances he founded and joined managed to get rolled. Suffice it to say I (and others) believe he's paid for his actions on PB.

[ochocinco]

I thought I'd offer some perspective.

First off, NoV as an alliance was targeted for their actions as an alliance due to their actions or inactions in regards to WS/WN. Using modified Nazi WWII propaganda was an easily identifiable example...something I told NoV leadership back in November/December of 07. Personally, I don't care what an individual's OOC beliefs are...they're irrelevant to what happens on PB. NoV as an alliance did matter because it was knowingly or unknowingly a base of recruitment for WS/WN. I don't want to debate that issue as it's seriously off-topic.

As for Kaiser Martens. My dislike of his character stems from strictly his actions on PB. He never paid for his mistakes...until recently. He hopped from one alliance to another while the alliances he founded and joined managed to get rolled. Suffice it to say I (and others) believe he's paid for his actions on PB.

Slayer, I'm impressed by your ability to let bygones be. Still, while you believe he has paid, some (notably GOD) disagree. Do you so firmly care for Martens that you would really mind seeing him taking a reroll to put aside his old in-character flaws?

[Bob Janova]

OOC: The 'evidence' against NoV was OOC, taken from off-game sides, and also tenuous at best. It is good to see that sentence finally lifted as it was deeply unsavoury to have OOC material brought into the game like that.

Also, why is it always about the Jews and the Holocaust? Many, many other people were also killed by the Nazis, not to mention the millions of people killed in other events since.

IC: As far as I'm aware KM's only major offences are (i) the ICP stuff, which while very low class he has paid for and apologised for (unlike other people who hide behind powerful shields and gloat), and (ii) joining Vox which presumably Continuum have forgiven.

[Delta1212]

IC: As far as I'm aware KM's only major offences are (i) the ICP stuff, which while very low class he has paid for and apologised for (unlike other people who hide behind powerful shields and gloat), and (ii) joining Vox which presumably Continuum have forgiven.

See the other thread for the issues with GOD which are not included in this thread.

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

IC: As far as I'm aware KM's only major offences are (i) the ICP stuff, which while very low class he has paid for and apologised for (unlike other people who hide behind powerful shields and gloat)...

1. Yes, he apologised for it. Far too little, years too late. He went back on his word, something which is usually rather unforgivable in CN. [sarcasm]I cannot possibly fathom why this case should be different [/sarcasm].

2. No, he did not pay for it. NoV was attacked by TPF and its coalition for reasons that had nothing to do with destroying the ICP (if you don't believe me, read their declaration of war and NoV's response neither of which mention that the destruction of the ICP was a reason for war. Incidentally, Golden Sabres wasn't destroyed because it instigated the destruction of the ICP either, but for other reasons.

3. Where, precisely, was Kaiser Martens in the period between July 7, 2007 and May 10, 2008? Oh yeah, hiding behind powerful shields and gloating (very occasionally, since we don't really matter to anyone on this green Bob ). He only stopped when the powerful shields turned on his alliance for, again, reasons that had nothing to do with the ICP.

[Sir Keshav IV]

which was a color included on the Nazi swastika (Hitler invented the swastika, I promise. Wiki it). and that knife will end up in the back of a non-white person!

Umm no.

The Swastika is orginally from Hindu Culture so no Hitler did not invent it.

Also just let the guy play the game.

Let the past be the past and let him play on. Its not in our hands to see who plays the game or doesn't.

Thats someone else's job.

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

Umm no.

The Swastika is orginally from Hindu Culture so no Hitler did not invent it.

Thank you captain obvious.

[Sumeragi]

Sir Keshav IV, the poster did state it was meant to be sarcastic......

[Cataduanes]

1. Yes, he apologised for it. Far too little, years too late. He went back on his word, something which is usually rather unforgivable in CN. [sarcasm]I cannot possibly fathom why this case should be different [/sarcasm].

2. No, he did not pay for it. NoV was attacked by TPF and its coalition for reasons that had nothing to do with destroying the ICP (if you don't believe me, read their declaration of war and NoV's response neither of which mention that the destruction of the ICP was a reason for war. Incidentally, Golden Sabres wasn't destroyed because it instigated the destruction of the ICP either, but for other reasons.

3. Where, precisely, was Kaiser Martens in the period between July 7, 2007 and May 10, 2008? Oh yeah, hiding behind powerful shields and gloating (very occasionally, since we don't really matter to anyone on this green Bob ). He only stopped when the powerful shields turned on his alliance for, again, reasons that had nothing to do with the ICP.

Gelibolu

But an apology is an apology Comrade, unless we leftists wish to demean our self respect by following the example others on Planet Bob have chosen. We won out in the end afterall, we survived, regrouped and ultimately now in the form of the Interntional grew stronger. It is not down to those veterans of the ICP reformation war to seek vengence but it a solemn duty to remain ever vigilant.

Let the past be the past and let him play on. Its not in our hands to see who plays the game or doesn't.

Thats someone else's job.

I must disgaree, the past is history and it has helped shape the planet Bob of today and for some of us the war in question can never and will never be forgotten. That said i agree KM should be allowed to play the game as i believe it is nobody's right to say who can and who cannot play CN..that belongs in the realms of those who run CN not those who play it.

Besides a part of me is intrigued by what he will get up to in the coming months

Edited February 13, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Xavii]

You don't happen to be form Norway do you

I am :jihad:

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

Gelibolu

But an apology is an apology Comrade, unless we leftists wish to demean our self respect by following the example others on Planet Bob have chosen. We won out in the end afterall, we survived, regrouped and ultimately now in the form of the Interntional grew stronger. It is not down to those veterans of the ICP reformation war to seek vengence but it a solemn duty to remain ever vigilant.

I think you may be inferring things in my statements that aren't there, Cata, probably because of the hyper-belligerant (for me) tone in which I'm expressing myself. Vengeance upon a single individual for the actions of an alliance, particularly when that individual is in a decrepit state, is rather pointless and devoid of satisfaction for the avenger. However, I must take issue with your assertion (not that it's just your assertion; IIRC Duncan King and others made it earlier) that we have "won out in the end". Cybernations is a paradigm without a forseeable end, certainly that end hasn't been reached. Given the capacity of nations to rebuild themselves, the ease of founding alliances, and the residual community ties of alliances that are formally destroyed (witness, if not the Left itself, the continued existence of pre-UjW subcultures across discrete alliances), there can be no "end" to a conflict unless both parties trust each other enough to put it behind them. Now, even in your own comparatively mild statement advocating "vigilance", it can be seen that this trust is not there. My point is simply this: that the Left-Right conflict cannot be declared over simply because one of the parties has momentarily ceased to have organized expression, because it is so very easy to reconstitute that organized expression and to build it to a point where it achieves relative parity with the supposedly "victorious" power.

Besides a part of me is intrigued by what he will get up to in the coming months

So I heard Zenith will be slowly transformed into Die Neue Nordland (sic.). Is this true?

[Bob Janova]

1. Yes, he apologised for it. Far too little, years too late. He went back on his word, something which is usually rather unforgivable in CN. [sarcasm]I cannot possibly fathom why this case should be different [/sarcasm].

Well, at this point it can be nothing but too late. Would you have him kept at war permanently on the basis of what he has done in the past? If it is simply too little, what do you require? (Also, why are you not ZI'ing Arcades?)

2. No, he did not pay for it. NoV was attacked by TPF and its coalition for reasons that had nothing to do with destroying the ICP (if you don't believe me, read their declaration of war and NoV's response neither of which mention that the destruction of the ICP was a reason for war.

ZI is ZI. He paid for all his crimes by losing everything he had.

3. Where, precisely, was Kaiser Martens in the period between July 7, 2007 and May 10, 2008? Oh yeah, hiding behind powerful shields and gloating (very occasionally, since we don't really matter to anyone on this green Bob ). He only stopped when the powerful shields turned on his alliance for, again, reasons that had nothing to do with the ICP.

Fair point ... if we were here on 9th May, 2008. (I couldn't have agreed more at that point in fact, as you will see if you look at my posts on the matter from that time. I never did understand why NPO protected KM so consistently and for so long.)

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

Well, at this point it can be nothing but too late. Would you have him kept at war permanently on the basis of what he has done in the past? If it is simply too little, what do you require? (Also, why are you not ZI'ing Arcades?)

Who, this guy? Probably because INT as an alliance has neither the political capital to get the NPO to release him, nor the strong nations with which to ZI him, nor a memory of any sort of justification (memory plays tricks like that). If you mean someone else, please say so; that was the only nation I could find with "arcades" anywhere in the nation name or ruler name.

Please read my last post, where I clearly state that "vengeance upon a single individual for the actions of an alliance, particularly when that individual is in a decrepit state, is rather pointless and devoid of satisfaction for the avenger". As for a positive policy proposal, let's just say that an alliance accepting Martens into the leadership or adopting policies that are recognizably Martensian while having him as a member would earn our suspicion (this is not a veiled threat against Zenith, which has not yet done either of these two things and will not be doing them in the forseeable future, jokes aside).

ZI is ZI. He paid for all his crimes by losing everything he had.

Now, I really don't think this is true. I don't ever recall the destruction of the ICP being a charge lesser than or included in the things Martens was charged with, and that account has yet to be settled. In this dream I've had of a sort of parallel universe, when someone is convicted of a number of crimes they take their punishment for each of them seperately, rather than clumped into one. As for our claim, it probably never will be satisfied, mostly because we're insignificant and if we were to raise demands nobody would listen to them anyway. Think not for a moment that we don't have a realistic assessment of our own relevance and political capital.

Fair point ... if we were here on 9th May, 2008. (I couldn't have agreed more at that point in fact, as you will see if you look at my posts on the matter from that time. I never did understand why NPO protected KM so consistently and for so long.)

Just sayin' that the present cannot really be divorced from the past.

[Bob Janova]

Who, this guy?

Yes. I believe it is correct that he was at least as guilty re the ICP debacle (he even has it in his sig on these boards) so if that is your justification for still being annoyed with KM, you should be so with him too.

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

Yes. I believe it is correct that he was at least as guilty re the ICP debacle (he even has it in his sig on these boards) so if that is your justification for still being annoyed with KM, you should be so with him too.

Yeah, probably. Then again, Arcades is a 100K NS nation in the NPO, whom we couldn't touch even if we could persuade NPO to give him up. Why bother?