Challenging Conventional Nation Guide Concepts

[biged]

When I first started CN, I was recruited by an alliance that provided me great information on how to build my economy. They came up with great incentives and bonuses to help us grow. The model for development however was the same...build your infrastructure to grow your economy.

They gave us great suggestion on optimal trade deals, which improvements to get, buy just enough troops to avoid anarchy they said, military is a waste of upkeep money, keep your tech under 50 for deal oppurtunities...etc, etc.

It was all great until our alliance got a foot in their $@!. Most of us lower level nations were hit in the second wave, after all our leading members got jumped. I got tooled by 3 nations (who've I've not forgotten by the way) with no chance of response, no stronger nations to send us reinforcements. So quickly I became a POW and had a lot of time to rant and rave with my fellow alliance members about my disappointment. It appeared that our alliance didn't even muster up a fight...

So, I vowed to not get caught with my pants down again. Yeah, sneak attacks happen...everyday. But usually after the inital 2 days...it can be real bad for a nation. I decided to redesign my nation to be ready for war..at all times.

I decided to look at what worked, u need an economy...no doubt. But i decided that what I had was enough of an economy to power my idea. I kept what worked and deviated from the path.

To build a military power nation, a War Machine, you had to build your TECHNOLOGY to grow your nation. The balance of the game seemed to favor infrastructure oriented growth. But slowly, maybe unnoticed, game improvements that leveraged technology started to get rolled out:

1. Technology makes your people happy.

2. Having a higher technology level allows you to equip your soldiers and tanks with better weapons and gear.

3. Technology increases your nation strength by a multiplier of 5.

4. Technology lowers infrastructure upkeep costs up to a maximum 10% discount

5. Technology increases your chances of spy operation/counter-operation success

6. Technology increases damages caused in ground battles, cruise missile attacks, nuclear missile attacks, navy attacking and defending naval attacks, and aircraft bombing

I started buying technology like a junky on crack. As soon as I could, I was purchasing tech to grow my nation. Besides paying taxes, I purchased nothing else for weeks. As the tech grew, my costs started dropping. I could spend a few thousand on infrastructure .5 or 1 a day. I was all about the technology deals.

When I got to 500 infrastructure, i purchased level 9 planes. One a day, every day for a over a month. I started to make trade agreements that would support the building of a strong airforce:

Resources which provide aircraft bonuses include:

• Aluminum - Reduces initial cost of aircraft by -8%

• Lead - Lowers aircraft upkeep cost by -20%

• Oil - Lowers initial cost of aircraft by -4%

• Rubber - Lowers initial cost of aircraft by -4%

• Construction - Bonus Resource Increases aircraft limit by +10

• Space Program - National Wonder Aircraft cost -5%

Let some bullspit nation come at me with their level 4 or 5 planes now. I'll shoot them outta the sky with less than a squadron.

I started purchasing missle defense improvements, i will make you less effective than you hoped. When I start purchasing Satelite improvements...I will hit you harder than you thought!

A casual review of nations in my attack range, (50% to 200% of my NS 15,027) reveals that only 10 of the 20 top nations at the 200% range have technology levels to match me in combat. Although most of them had 2 or 3 times as much infrastructure (thus the ability to substan a long-term assault) they would not be able to overwhelm me in the first, second or even 3 day of combat. Enough time for me to call upon my allies to reinforcement. Almost no one in NS of 22000 or less has more technology rating.

It goes without saying a war machine nation needs to have a considerable amount of reserve war funds banked just in case of war and spys (who benefit from high technology) on hand to protect against subversion.

Lastly, in my alliance it is my attention to move to the front of the list to the "international police" nation of sorts. To make mysefl available to defend alliance mates from unprovoked attacks. In this way, I bring value to my alliance, not at this time as a economic giant but as a defender.

[oinkoink12]

Try my nation Its infra I need

Edited July 17, 2008 by oinkoink12

[Delta1212]

Two to three times your infrastructure means two to three times your troop and tank numbers. A tech advantage isn't going to help a lot against that.

There are strategies for building war oriented nations, but to be effective, they're all pretty much based around Wonder purchases by nations who built themselves up to a high economic level beforehand.

[Hasin]

Two to three times your infrastructure means two to three times your troop and tank numbers. A tech advantage isn't going to help a lot against that.

There are strategies for building war oriented nations, but to be effective, they're all pretty much based around Wonder purchases by nations who built themselves up to a high economic level beforehand.

This. You've gotta have the economic base to become a true military nation. Grow some infra, they know what they're talking about. And in war it's the nations at the top that decide the outcome.

[Reformentia]

While I could comment on threads like these with extensive analysis of what I think makes the best combat optimized nation... the thing that most people who participate in these threads tend to overlook is the one single factor that REALLY gives you an advantage on the battlefield over another nation is if they don't know how to do it themselves.

Number 1 tip for optimizing your nation for combat? When you figure out how it's done DO NOT advertise how to do it to the entire planet on the forums... because you're just pissing away your efforts. I know the temptation to show off your amazing knowledge and nation building skils is tempting, but stop and think first. I've succumbed to the temptation myself to comment once or twice on some point or another on this topic, but when I'm thinking clearly I keep my mouth shut regarding anything to do with optimizing combat capabilities anywhere in public. I'd really very strongly suggest that course of action to everyone.

And why am I giving THIS advice then you ask? Because every time some random person pops in here with good advice it lowers my relative combat effectiveness against every single nation that listens to them... and the day may come when I find myself (just as you may find yourself) on the other side of the battlefield from one of these people you're handing free tips to. So, in summary... "Shhhhh!". Except for the people who don't know what they're talking about. You guys yap away as convincingly as you can. And no, I'm not saying whether anyone who already posted here is in one category or the other.

[Craven]

While I could comment on threads like these with extensive analysis of what I think makes the best combat optimized nation... the thing that most people who participate in these threads tend to overlook is the one single factor that REALLY gives you an advantage on the battlefield over another nation is if they don't know how to do it themselves.

Number 1 tip for optimizing your nation for combat? When you figure out how it's done DO NOT advertise how to do it to the entire planet on the forums... because you're just pissing away your efforts. I know the temptation to show off your amazing knowledge and nation building skils is tempting, but stop and think first. I've succumbed to the temptation myself to comment once or twice on some point or another on this topic, but when I'm thinking clearly I keep my mouth shut regarding anything to do with optimizing combat capabilities anywhere in public. I'd really very strongly suggest that course of action to everyone.

And why am I giving THIS advice then you ask? Because every time some random person pops in here with good advice it lowers my relative combat effectiveness against every single nation that listens to them... and the day may come when I find myself (just as you may find yourself) on the other side of the battlefield from one of these people you're handing free tips to. So, in summary... "Shhhhh!". Except for the people who don't know what they're talking about. You guys yap away as convincingly as you can. And no, I'm not saying whether anyone who already posted here is in one category or the other.

Proud to serve under your leadership Sir :jihad:

That basically means I agree with the above message...

Edited July 17, 2008 by Craven

[Gebiv]

Haha. Lucky. You don't have nukes at your 200% range, iirc.

Correction: What if you get nuked?

Edited July 17, 2008 by Gebiv

[Hyperion321]

While I could comment on threads like these with extensive analysis of what I think makes the best combat optimized nation... the thing that most people who participate in these threads tend to overlook is the one single factor that REALLY gives you an advantage on the battlefield over another nation is if they don't know how to do it themselves.

Number 1 tip for optimizing your nation for combat? When you figure out how it's done DO NOT advertise how to do it to the entire planet on the forums... because you're just pissing away your efforts. I know the temptation to show off your amazing knowledge and nation building skils is tempting, but stop and think first. I've succumbed to the temptation myself to comment once or twice on some point or another on this topic, but when I'm thinking clearly I keep my mouth shut regarding anything to do with optimizing combat capabilities anywhere in public. I'd really very strongly suggest that course of action to everyone.

And why am I giving THIS advice then you ask? Because every time some random person pops in here with good advice it lowers my relative combat effectiveness against every single nation that listens to them... and the day may come when I find myself (just as you may find yourself) on the other side of the battlefield from one of these people you're handing free tips to. So, in summary... "Shhhhh!". Except for the people who don't know what they're talking about. You guys yap away as convincingly as you can. And no, I'm not saying whether anyone who already posted here is in one category or the other.

This says pretty much everything I was going to say.

If you really want to prove how good you are at fighting, don't just give away your strategies on the forums. Wait until a war and kill everything that moves. Your prowess as a fighter will speak for itself.

[JoshuaR]

Hehehe, Sir Reformentia.

MFO gives away economic guides, but we've never published war guides.

[General Zeikoh]

Yes... It's war that the nations should be built for. You cannot be in Peace Mode forever. :jihad:

[jackyseto123]

Isn't this...kinda obvious?

My alliance told me to start buying instead of selling tech after 10k NS.

[Britanicca]

You do,know trying to make your nation a war machine you have inadvertantly put yourself in the strengh range of those who can make more money and can deal the same damage.

[Viluin]

While I don't think it's necessary at low NS levels, the idea of building a nation for war interests me. I think there should be more changes made to the game to promote this, such as a maximum amount of soldiers/tanks/aircraft/cruise missiles you can purchase per day and higher CM / aircraft bills. People with a maxed out military would suffer a considerable economic penalty (Bills, lower environment), but people who do not buy military units will find themselves in a tough position when war breaks out. It would make militarized nations possible instead of the current standard cookie cutter nation building guide, and those with no military would be considered economical powerhouses.

On the other hand, this idea might not be feasible in Cybernations.

Edited July 19, 2008 by Viluin

[jer]

I would also like to see real decisions having to be made between whether you choose become a military/economic powerhouse. The OP is thinking ahead and sacrificing a fair amount of infra in order to prepare his nation but as others have said it's negligent as any 30-40k nation can build up their military at the clicking of fingers and stomp all over his hard work. Just doesn't really seem fair.

Edited July 19, 2008 by Aimee Mann

[nc1701]

I try to build my nation for war as well. Though all my methods are of course classified:)

Anyway I certainly do think that in nations built for war have a significant advantage over ones built purely for economics. Though this doesn't really appear until they become somewhat larger.

[Ch33kY]

You've got it all wrong, son. You don't buy tech for yourself. You pay tech dealers to sell it to you. It's much quicker and cheaper.

[Stylesjl]

In all honesty the guns vs butter dilemma seems to get considerably higher when nations get big. Wonders and Navies are where it most stands out. Right now my economic growth is slowed because I opt to purchase less economic wonders then what I could have, for example right now I'm planning to build a WRC, which is going to be a very expensive undertaking (at least in terms of what I could get if I decided on economic wonders instead). Navies are the same, building a full navy would help your nation considerably at wartime but is horrendously disastrous to economic growth.

So yeah there is a strategy to preparing your nation for war that forgoes economic progress, and so hard choices do have to be made

Interestingly a thing that I thought of a little while ago is the value of land, thanks to the Agricultural Development Program land can rake in a considerable income (still less then infrastructure in most circumstances though). But another thing that makes it valuable is the fact that it generates income and is less vulnerable to being destroyed in war. In conventional war cruise missiles, ground attacks (both successful and defeat alerts) and air attacks can destroy infrastructure whereas land is immune to being destroyed by those means. So in a conventional war successful ground attacks (even defeat alerts don't destroy your land) are the only way your land can be touched (in nuclear war investment in land is not quite as valuable due to nuclear anarchy and the land destruction of nukes). So war preparation might see some nations going for a land based economy instead of an infrastructure based economy

Edited July 19, 2008 by Stylesjl

[Steelrat]

While I could comment on threads like these with extensive analysis of what I think makes the best combat optimized nation... the thing that most people who participate in these threads tend to overlook is the one single factor that REALLY gives you an advantage on the battlefield over another nation is if they don't know how to do it themselves.

Number 1 tip for optimizing your nation for combat? When you figure out how it's done DO NOT advertise how to do it to the entire planet on the forums... because you're just pissing away your efforts. I know the temptation to show off your amazing knowledge and nation building skils is tempting, but stop and think first. I've succumbed to the temptation myself to comment once or twice on some point or another on this topic, but when I'm thinking clearly I keep my mouth shut regarding anything to do with optimizing combat capabilities anywhere in public. I'd really very strongly suggest that course of action to everyone.

And why am I giving THIS advice then you ask? Because every time some random person pops in here with good advice it lowers my relative combat effectiveness against every single nation that listens to them... and the day may come when I find myself (just as you may find yourself) on the other side of the battlefield from one of these people you're handing free tips to. So, in summary... "Shhhhh!". Except for the people who don't know what they're talking about. You guys yap away as convincingly as you can. And no, I'm not saying whether anyone who already posted here is in one category or the other.

^^ This.

And because i'm a nice guy some hints.

Get your eco up like hell until you reach a certain amount of Income, usually between 5-8Infra. While you do that don't forget to buy wonders and tech.

The tricky part is to get the military wonders at the right time and having a warchest. Anything else is negliable in warfare.

In other words as long as Infra is cheap (until 5k Infra and to an extend to 8k Infra) forget any military preps, it won't help you vs any enemy.

Last tip: NUKES

[alpreb]

That is some bad advise you give here. Infra > Tech

The real question, how much do you make a day and how much do you think a say 4999 infra nation make a day?

Good Stuff

The thing is, from my experience with the internet is that on average people are rather stupid. Even if admin released guides for optimum warfare plenty of people will ignore it or claim it is not true. Moreover, not that many even watch this section of the forum so even if I disclosed an "air force supremacy 101" guide, only as fraction of CN would ever read and use it. While you naturally shouldn't tell the dark secrets of warfare the most important part for winning a war does not lie in game play mechanics.

Edited July 20, 2008 by alpreb

[Hob Dobson]

Last tip: NUKES

Spoken like a true Grämlin.

Now I'm left trying to figure out whether Craven, ncc1701, or Reformentia handed you more useful information for conducting warfare on CN.

[Hyperion321]

While you naturally shouldn't tell the dark secrets of warfare the most important part for winning a war does not lie in game play mechanics.

This is the truest statement made in this thread. Sure, you can get lots of flashy wonders and loads of cash, but if you don't know how to use it to your advantage in the long run (not in the number crunching sense) you might as well surrender.

Nukes do not equal victory, knowing how to use them right does.

[Bob Sanders]

Good luck man. In 2-3 years your economicly handicapped nation might be in nuke range after 15k people stop playing the game.

[Decomposition]

Good luck man. In 2-3 years your economicly handicapped nation might be in nuke range after 15k people stop playing the game.

What Bob said. Focus on getting good trades and then infra, infra, and then some more infra. You need to get your population up which allows you to rapidly acquire improvements, which gives you happiness,money and more population - which ultimately can be translated into that military might you so crave. Focusing on tech and military in the early stages is highly counterproductive.

[LeVentNoir]

The easiest way to win in a war is to watch the politics of CN and always be on the larger side. This means you will usually strike first, and that there will be bankers etc to help you out. IN the UJW I was in TAB, a little 7k nation, and we were on the larger side, and I kicked butt and took names during that war. Now look where I am. I have gone for a economic build, and now that I am at this level, focusing on military makes some sense.

[Craven]

The easiest way to win in a war is to watch the politics of CN and always be on the larger side. This means you will usually strike first, and that there will be bankers etc to help you out. IN the UJW I was in TAB, a little 7k nation, and we were on the larger side, and I kicked butt and took names during that war. Now look where I am. I have gone for a economic build, and now that I am at this level, focusing on military makes some sense.

Shh... don't tell him that , it isn't like we have sides anymore. Everyone trying to be on the bigger side lessens the chance of a war to begin with thus making this thread pointless. Of course breakups happen, but it is getting more and more unlikely. Fight for what you believe in. Find a good place that shares your beliefs and keep learning. This game updates a good bit so it helps to stay active and on top of things. Asking questions , just means you're on the right track.

EDIT: Also get your forum name changed to reflect your Nation Ruler or Nation Name.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Craven