ADude Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, lilweirdward said: For whatever reason, certain people who are only in your coalition seem inclined to treat FL’s rogue AA as a legitimate alliance. This decision continues to baffle me and several people I’ve talked to, as there is no realistic world where this would have ever made sense, but we can’t force anyone to acknowledge that a rogue is indeed a rogue. Regardless, that doesn’t change the fact that tC will continue to treat FL and anyone else who joins him as such. . Except that we are a legitimate alliance with a legitimate grievance against CCC as mentioned multiple times in this thread. Also it’s funny that you are claiming that your allies are “assisting” with staggers when in reality they (NG ) has been the main force against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 (edited) 14 minutes ago, lilweirdward said: I shouldn’t have expected any less of you than for you to twist a good, genuine conversation between us into whatever this sentence is pretending it was. I honestly thought we ended it on a good note, agreeing to disagree, but apparently not. Have a good evening, Johnny. It was a good conversation; though it comes across as you taking issue with inconsistencies in your story and refusal to lstein to some friendly advice. If I was going to twist anything I'd provide a dossier for circulating to "specific people" to "see where it landed" with carefully selected discord logs and all the omissions that you made in timeframe to absolve you of guilt. Maybe it's the inconsistencies are getting harder to defend, maybe it's not to your liking when someone calls you out on them. Ask plenty of people; I can still have a good chat and disagree, what I find curious is your decision to double down when I've given the best advice I can to save some face here. FL wont admint he did wrong, you could rise above it and do what he will not. Thought ti worth putting out there for the other people reading this mess that who may recognise your narrative is not the full story told with impartiality in mind. That ignoring FLs demands is one approach and there is another way to handle it and rise above that keeps it all fair game. A much more credible approach for you to show a little humility and capacity to admit when you've had a lapse in judgement- we all have them, it needn't be something to be ashamed of happening. FL hardly gave you a choice to do anything other than double-down in Armen's defense. Look what you tried to create in response to catch people out and use it to your advantage as an example. You still refuse to acknowledge your own member has been further trying to drag your alliance down with his conduct and you do nothing to address it. Not much else to say here; how you deal with this is upto you but your current method? It isn't flying with many people beyond the teams you have senatorial control over. Some Final thoughts: Do unto others as you would have done unto you, I choose expressing honesty with people even I rarely see eye to eye with them because at least I tried and see no merit in beating around the bus when I could be candid about something to get to the poibr. One good chat does not mean I will pander to you as a result and tell you what you want to hear and see said to discredit your opponent without any question of it. Have a good evening yourself, LWW. Edited June 27 by Johnny Apocalypse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted June 27 Author Report Share Posted June 27 40 minutes ago, lilweirdward said: This decision continues to baffle me and several people I’ve talked to, as there is no realistic world where this would have ever made sense, Sure there is. It's been explained multiple times. Even if you disagree, it's hard to see where you'd be 'baffled' by it unless you're just acting in bad faith. Frankly, you went out of your way to purposefully recognize TCTB, so it's even harder to take your confusion as genuine. Jason succinctly laid out many of the factors that determine what an alliance is, and our CB has been talked to death, but frankly even your own allies make it clear how wrong OOC attacks are, so I guess I'm not sure where the confusion is about the legitimacy of our actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrinkledStraw Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 1 hour ago, ADude said: Fixed that for you. Judging by LWWs inaction with Hersh when he reported three OOC attacks by armen this wasn't going to happen, thats where we came in because it was the right thing to do. You should read what FL posted around page 6. Should clear up what he initially thought for you. I’m just using his words. I know it is tough, since the stance has changed. 1 hour ago, Cosmic Chocolate said: I like how you change subjects so quickly. It’s rather amusing. I changed my subject from finding it very amusing that FL keeps being proven wrong by his own words to…continuing to be amused by the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted June 27 Author Report Share Posted June 27 Just now, CrinkledStraw said: You should read what FL posted around page 6. Should clear up what he initially thought for you. I’m just using his words. I know it is tough, since the stance has changed. I changed my subject from finding it very amusing that FL keeps being proven wrong by his own words to…continuing to be amused by the same? Hey Crink, hope all is well. You must have missed my last five or six requests, so I'll make another - please back up your earlier statement and provide specific examples of my story changing. Thanks in advance! xoxo FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrinkledStraw Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 (edited) As I said before, it’s all right here for those with eyes to see. (or for those who can read to read - this is not an OOC attack, text to speak exists and can be a very worthwhile tool) Edited June 27 by CrinkledStraw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted June 27 Author Report Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, CrinkledStraw said: As I said before, it’s all right here for those with eyes to see. Then take 2 minutes and point it out! Link, with my 'first' story. Second link, brief description of how my story 'changed'. Shouldn't be difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarkin Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 2 hours ago, lilweirdward said: For whatever reason, certain people who are only in your coalition seem inclined to treat FL’s rogue AA as a legitimate alliance. If your position was as widely held as you suggest, I think you would've had more success getting folks onboard with your sanction campaign. As it stands, only a few of your (extended) blocmates have bought in. Seems like most folks agree that you're just in a boring old alliance war and that you'll have to be satisfied with an overwhelming yet conventional military victory. Could be worse! 3 hours ago, lilweirdward said: I’m sure you’ll be equally outraged at this heinous behavior from FL, and suggest that this amounts to a valid CB that anyone may be justified in using against him too. Right? It's fun that the standard of conduct in CCC has eroded down to, "if you can point at someone else outside of the alliance having done something similar, you're in the clear." It's the same approach I follow when I get pulled over for a speeding ticket. But officer, the car in front of me was speeding too! Whether he's the leader of his alliance or (as you claim) a rogue, it's up to FL to decide how/whether to solicit assistance during wartime. He's obviously pursuing a high-risk strategy by seeking out tech deals with uninvolved alliances. Assuming he subverted GPA or ODN leadership's wishes to make those happen, I do think it's a legitimate casus belli for them if they want to pursue it. For DT's part, his attempt to loop in Rooster was an obvious joke given their relationship (borne out by Rooster's response in that screenshot). However, if I had thought it were serious, it would be a legitimate casus belli and I would have considered retaliating. Conversely, Armen is a member of your alliance, not its leader. If he really did go out and try to drag another alliance into this conflict without your permission or that alliance leadership's agreement, then setting aside any OOC attack allegations, this is obvious IC bad behavior that does indeed hand that alliance a casus belli. It's not something you should be encouraging retroactively because he totally dunked on FL or whatever in the process. If he did it with your permission, then it would be bad behavior on your part and considerably worse given your position of responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Chocolate Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 3 hours ago, CrinkledStraw said: I changed my subject from finding it very amusing that FL keeps being proven wrong by his own words to…continuing to be amused by the same? I guess I have to delete the rest because you seemingly can’t figure out what I was talking about, or chose to blatantly ignore it because it made sense. I made a reference to the fact that you said “TC is wanting you to stay out” and you look like you’re doing that as noted before that NG is handling most of your work but not surprisingly you can’t listen to reason and handle conduct of your own member. I mean there’s been now OOC attacks and now he’s trying to draw other AAs in. Sheesh what’s next? Dropping secret logs from a discord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrinkledStraw Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 22 minutes ago, Cosmic Chocolate said: I guess I have to delete the rest because you seemingly can’t figure out what I was talking about, or chose to blatantly ignore it because it made sense. I made a reference to the fact that you said “TC is wanting you to stay out” and you look like you’re doing that as noted before that NG is handling most of your work but not surprisingly you can’t listen to reason and handle conduct of your own member. I mean there’s been now OOC attacks and now he’s trying to draw other AAs in. Sheesh what’s next? Dropping secret logs from a discord. And I’m the one changing the topic? Ahuh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabcat Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 7 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: A much more credible approach for you to show a little humility and capacity to admit when you've had a lapse in judgement- we all have them, it needn't be something to be ashamed of happening. Sound advice that applies both IC and OOC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Chocolate Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 6 hours ago, CrinkledStraw said: And I’m the one changing the topic? Ahuh. I guess this war isn’t about OOC attacks and you didn’t suggest that TC doesn’t want you to fight. Whatever you keep moving the finish line. FL only did it because we escalated. Once you escalate something the goals move. You clearly don’t understand how that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilweirdward Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 8 hours ago, Sarkin said: Whether he's the leader of his alliance or (as you claim) a rogue, it's up to FL to decide how/whether to solicit assistance during wartime. He's obviously pursuing a high-risk strategy by seeking out tech deals with uninvolved alliances. Assuming he subverted GPA or ODN leadership's wishes to make those happen, I do think it's a legitimate casus belli for them if they want to pursue it. For DT's part, his attempt to loop in Rooster was an obvious joke given their relationship (borne out by Rooster's response in that screenshot). However, if I had thought it were serious, it would be a legitimate casus belli and I would have considered retaliating. Conversely, Armen is a member of your alliance, not its leader. If he really did go out and try to drag another alliance into this conflict without your permission or that alliance leadership's agreement, then setting aside any OOC attack allegations, this is obvious IC bad behavior that does indeed hand that alliance a casus belli. It's not something you should be encouraging retroactively because he totally dunked on FL or whatever in the process. If he did it with your permission, then it would be bad behavior on your part and considerably worse given your position of responsibility. Declaring war on someone for requesting aid from allies and friends in their ongoing fight with a rogue would have to be the dumbest CB of all time, and boy would it have a lot of competition. You started this section by essentially saying “whether FL is a rogue or not,” but I think it’s an extremely important distinction because alliances in CN have never held the same rules of engagement for dealing with a rogue, both militarily and economically. Has anyone dealing with Axiom of Regularity requested aid from an uninvolved alliance? I’m sure they have, and even if that hasn’t happened yet, it would mean nothing because Axiom are rogues. The community has already widely sanctioned them, and would expect nothing less than for the alliances being raided to do whatever necessary to mitigate the issue. This isn’t to say anything of the obvious double standard here, where FL soliciting aid is “an obvious joke,” but Armen doing the same thing is “obvious IC bad behavior,” even though you have no proof that either representation is “obviously” true. I don’t really think any of it is a crime because again, FL is a rogue, but it’s worth noting the implicit bias here, if nothing else. 8 hours ago, Sarkin said: If your position was as widely held as you suggest, I think you would've had more success getting folks onboard with your sanction campaign. As it stands, only a few of your (extended) blocmates have bought in. Seems like most folks agree that you're just in a boring old alliance war and that you'll have to be satisfied with an overwhelming yet conventional military victory. Could be worse! You underestimate how many people in our coalition see FL and Nuke6 as rogues. But honestly, it doesn’t really matter because I think this exchange does a great job of representing how CN has effectively become like Washington (the IC nation that either exists or probably did at some point). Any time an issue comes up and one party takes a position on it first, the other party takes the opposing stance by default, with both sides circling the wagons to make sure they stick to “their side” of the issue. Very few people are actually looking at these issues critically, they’re just terrified that if they support whatever position their opponents are holding, it will get used against them, and then escalated into further demands that would damage their side more. It is what it is. I do hope that people are prepared for the consequences of allowing rogues to “pick a side” and be legitimized and effectively protected by that party, because whether you like it or not, that is absolutely the precedent being set here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted June 27 Author Report Share Posted June 27 37 minutes ago, lilweirdward said: This isn’t to say anything of the obvious double standard here, where FL soliciting aid is “an obvious joke,” but Armen doing the same thing is “obvious IC bad behavior,” It's not a double standard, it's just a different scenario. I made a joking off-hand comment to TK and Bundy. In public. In full view of you. With no attempt to really convince them to do anything. The Bundy one is even more absurd given you're one of three treaty partners of his. He's obviously not going to abandon his alliance to join me in fighting his ally. That's fundamentally different than approaching these people privately and trying to convince them it's their opportunity to 'get back' at me by doing X, Y, Z. Quote You underestimate how many people in our coalition see FL and Nuke6 as rogues. See: your 'Washington' point. The fact that it's not all should tell you how weak your position is on this. Quote But honestly, it doesn’t really matter because I think this exchange does a great job of representing how CN has effectively become like Washington I think it explains your coalition, certainly. There are plenty of people holding their nose saying "I really don't like the way Armen is acting or how CCC supports him, but obviously we've put all this effort into the next global and that's way more important..." I think most people who somewhat support my side have been very critical in their assessments. It's not hard to side with Nukes^6. We negotiated diplomatically, resolved prior complaints through diplomacy, and stand on the side of long-held community standards that condemn OOC attacks. We have a clear and historically accepted CB, a clear goal with our war, and have offered reasonable peace terms (our initial offer was the same as pre-war: commit to booting Armen for a future serious OOC attack and we end the wars today.) While I can understand your desire to brand us as rogues, I'd argue most independent critical thinkers would find we're a legitimate alliance with a legitimate CB. Quote I do hope that people are prepared for the consequences of allowing rogues to “pick a side” and be legitimized and effectively protected by that party, You mean like TCTB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionic redhead Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 14 hours ago, cobwebbyarc6 said: How many times does someone need to say that victim blaming is not okay? As someone who has been insulted by many people over the last 18 years without pitching a tantrum like firingline, I'm good with saying that firingline gets offended too easily and holds on to grudges for much longer than is healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted June 27 Author Report Share Posted June 27 Just now, Bionic redhead said: holds on to grudges for much longer than is healthy. Says the guy who's been following me around on the OWF for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrinkledStraw Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 3 hours ago, Cosmic Chocolate said: and you didn’t suggest that TC doesn’t want you to fight. Correct, I did not say that. I think this may be the first time I’ve ever typed TC (or The Cookout) and meant anything other than trade circle. Please feel free to quote me if I’m wrong. I did say NG is a very very happy to jump in a play a teensy war game, it would be very hard to tell the salivating derp dogs no to the idea of helping, and it’s very silly to suggest that it required begging from CCC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted June 27 Author Report Share Posted June 27 19 minutes ago, CrinkledStraw said: Please feel free to quote me if I’m wrong. We'll consider it, but first you need to provide the quotes where I changed my story. We've been waiting for a week. If you have time to debate about this, you certainly have time to provide the links requested. We'll wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrinkledStraw Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 Facts aren’t a debate. 😚 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1ph4 0m3ga Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 (edited) AO here: Retired CCC gov and retiring CN nation ruler I want to hand out the official "e-lawyer" certificates to all involved in the above discussions. You have all succesfully completed your honorary doctorates and can officially put in your ruler signature: Certified E-Lawyer, Planet Bob School of Law, Digiterra University. the tl;dr for all those who don't want to read 14 pages of back and forth -Armen bad, Armen not bad -fl bad, fl not bad -CCC bad, CCC not bad -fl rogue, fl not rogue -N^6 legitimate, N^6 not legitimate -JA makes long posts Enjoy your day! Touch the grass of your wonderful nations, unless you're fl whose nation is a smoldering crater of nuclear fire. Goodbye! Edited June 27 by A1ph4 0m3ga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Chocolate Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 On 6/26/2024 at 7:35 AM, CrinkledStraw said: This is literally what you said when confronted about an OOC attack. Also, let’s get over this absolutely silliness. No one is calling NG to save them. They have to hold our ding dongs back not to play war. You literally say NG is trying to prevent you from entering. Sorry I said TC it’s still apart of them. But whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrinkledStraw Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, Cosmic Chocolate said: You literally say NG is trying to prevent you from entering. Sorry I said TC it’s still apart of them. But whatever makes you feel better about yourself. I literally never said that. I’m…in NG? What are you talking about? I feel great. Edited June 27 by CrinkledStraw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted June 27 Author Report Share Posted June 27 3 hours ago, CrinkledStraw said: Facts aren’t a debate. 😚 Correct - they're not. Facts don't change, and the fact is you can't back up your claim because your claim was bullsh*t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerdge Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 (edited) [Sorry for the entirely OOC post, there's no IC way of addressing this thread.] I've been against bringing RL stuff into the game since 2007. To be fair, I have rarely been listened to on this (and on so many other things!) Nonetheless, against my best judgement, I'll try again... RL offences need to be dealt with in RL. 1. If someone breaches some enforceable RL rule(s) in the process of attacking you in any way, have them rules enforced by those in charge of enforcing them. Some analogies here are: an assault, call the cops; slander, hire a lawyer; breaking the platform's rules, bring it to the moderators. Usually there already are avenues designed for that, just make use of them. 2. If someone is nasty but they don't break any rule when attacking you in RL, while you have no actual leg to stand on, if you really feel aggravated and talking it out with them is not feasible, share it with your friends: for starters, they may provide you with suggestions, and in any way and at the very least they will help you get over it. Of course, none of you should go vigilante against the offender: after all they didn't break any actual rule. Your friends might have one or multiple talks with the offender, and in case they're friends with them too they might help with making peace in some way. Often your friends will break up with the offender or they will downgrade their relationship with them (if you're right, that's it), which can act as a deterrent against further attacks. (I personally wouldn't intentionally aim at it, anyway, as I think that meddling with others' relationship is manipulative and unhealthy.) If it looks like the offender will attack you again and again, do everything you can to just ignore them. Again, basically every socially-oriented Internet stuff nowadays has features to enable users to ignore trolls: just use them without mercy. Also: ask yourself why you should care about what someone intentionally being a dick is saying about you. What they're doing isn't worth your time, there's already too much idiocy around and you can't and shouldn't waste your time over it. An analogy here is: someone abrasively making fun of you without crossing the line into hate speech, slander or other illegal stuff: ignore them and talk with your friends instead. Have fun! I acknowledge that it can suck to be unable to force them to stop, but on the other hand you must realize that you can't and you won't (and you shouldn't) always have it your way. What if some unknown individual vandalizes your car and they also get away with it? Will you forever snarl about it, our will you claim agency over you time, and you'll just move on? 3. In no case you should try to use the game to set your RL counts straight. For starters, by design it can't work, as the game has no meaningful influence on RL. It's ridiculous and delusional. You'll look like you're trying to exploit a RL issue, maybe even a serious one, for your in-game ends. You'll pollute the game with unrelated stuff that a lot of people will be annoyed to just learn of. You'll jeopardize any chance of setting it straight in RL, where it belongs, instead. You'll reinforce bad precedents. RL offences need to be dealt with in RL. Edited June 27 by jerdge brackets fix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionic redhead Posted June 28 Report Share Posted June 28 10 hours ago, firingline said: Says the guy who's been following me around on the OWF for years. Wait, you think I keep track of who I mouth off to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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