Announcement from the Viridian Entente

[Hereno]

[quote]Then there was PB-Polar, which honestly shouldn't have been shocking since we've never tolerated spying, but that's a whole different story. Then the last two wars, one where we tried to politically defend GOD while trying to please our other allies at the same time, then this last one where we went all-in for GOD one last time.[/quote]

Something is missing here.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Ruler with Plan X' timestamp='1346261661' post='3026386']
We had a checklist in January on how to prepare for the upcoming war against Pacifica+co, what we thought the sides would be and what we wanted out of the war. We were prepared for that war, we wanted to participate in that war and we wanted to win that war. We counterblitzed IRON and if memory serves we ended up taking more damage than almost any other alliance on our side while dishing out much more than we took. We rejected backroom deal after backroom deal attempting to get IRON through the war undamaged because they attacked our blocmate. We could have chosen the easy path, accepted the deal presented, gone for easier targets and let RoK burn, but we didn't and it was never an option. To say we wanted to sit back and let OV, GOD and VE burn is a complete misrepresentation of what happened. In the days running up to the war our .gov was certain we were about to get the absolute !@#$ beaten out of us in a well orchestrated curbstomp and we were prepared for a second holy war. Krack was not .gov at the time and left to make Aloha shortly after the war ended

As to VE they thought they were a shoo-in for SF so they didn't take our QnA seriously. Their representative screwed the pooch and the damage was done before .gov could get in with serious answers. That was 3 or 4 years ago. No one cares
[/quote]
FARK fought a great war and did all anyone could have expected and more. I didn't intend to imply otherwise (although I can see where you could get that impression) I was just pointing out that Krack didn't know what he was talking about.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1346130051' post='3025911']
Correct. It wasn't totally a good idea. And it wasn't something they all basically wanted. The KARMA side did not have anything close to winning numbers until Moo screwed everyone on his side by antagonizing the Citadel alliances on the eve of war. Before that screw-up KARMA was a losing proposition for what became the eventual winners.[/quote]

Oh dear God, how could anyone believe that...oh wait, it's Krack.

By the eve of the war everything was in place to ambush NPO and it was pulled off magnificently. NPO had antagonized far more than Citadel by that point, they weren't even listening to the warnings being given by their closest allies to expect a trap.

For the record...

SF had its time and it was during one of the most critical periods of world history. Unfortunately they were outpaced by MK and its allies post-Karma for a variety of reasons. Fark as part of SF provided a backbone that the other alliances formed around. It cannot be understated how important Fark was to SF, and its departure from the bloc, even though it maintained treaties with individual members, marked the absolute decline of SF to what it is now. That is not to say that GOD, Ragnarok, RIA, RnR, or CSN didn't also have something critical to contribute in their own way--each made SF what it was, one of the most respected blocs of all time.

Speaking of GOD, the GOD-VE relationship made sense for an extended period of time. That time had clearly passed by the time of TOP\IRON-NpO War. No need to mourn the loss of something that was in need of cancellation long before now.

[Mr Vicarious]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416']
Since I was Lord of VE for Karma, I thought I'd give my two cents. My personal motivation for that war was the protection of OV, and that was it. I felt they had been wronged in the lead-up to Karma, and I put my support behind what they felt was the appropriate response to that. If Seth felt that his ZI was best, we would have stood behind that, and if he wanted to continue to negotiate with NPO over a more fair resolution (as is what happened) then we would've stood behind that as well. I personally feared that I might be leading VE to a losing war, but felt that standing up for our ally was more important than winning. Xiphosis was more pro-war than I was (as were some of my fellow Viridians) while several members in C&G (which people tend to forget was also tied to OV) were more for appeasement. Now, we were lucky in several areas: 1. Moo attacked in the middle of TOP-sponsored peace talks, aggravating the Citadel alliances as stated before, 2. after realizing his potential mistake, tried to negotiate with Archon to leave the war and let TORN be a sacrificial lamb (which allowed Archon to then turn around and get TORN to surrender and bow out), and 3. the entire Coalition of Cowards fiasco (that would've gone off [i]much[/i] better had the DoW(s) simply been included in the same post) that basically swung most fence-sitters to our side. Karma could've easily swung the other way, but that would not have affected my decisions in the slightest. I can't speak for anybody else though.

As to our failure to join SF, yes, we did take FARK's support for granted. We had been on good relations with the other members beforehand (or we would never have reached that point) and without any tip-off to potential problems with the last member we simply assumed they had no major objections. Obviously, we were wrong. Smooth, being very active at the time, was there when most of the rest of the Viridian delegation wasn't (who had started talks then left for the night), and proceeded to get into a flamefest with several FARK-members. There were people to blame on both sides, but the important thing is when the more level-headed Viridians had returned the damage had been done, and relations with FARK were trashed for months and even years. FARK simply had no respect because of our disbandment, and Smooth and others felt our courage was insulted for the actions of one previous Lord. Because of that day in 2007, we take disbandment seriously. We will never advocate it, and in fact talked GOD out of using it on UPN back in PB-Polar. Yes, not joining SF was an FA-failure on our part, but it wasn't the first and won't be the last. Some have been more serious than others (the worst obviously being the set of failures that led us to disband).

And one last thing, I don't understand why some continue to label us as fence-sitters. We don't change sides arbitrarily, and try to stand by our allies whenever possible. In GW2 and GW3, we stood with WUT because they had given our alliance relevance, and when we felt that WUT was moving in a direction counter to ours we left, despite it being the first step that led us to being rolled and disbanded. When we re-emerged, we stood with NpO in the UJW because they had been our biggest advocates in reforming. We stood with them until they stomped our ally FIST with little warning and for petty reasons. We fought with the Coalition in the WotC (aka NoCB) because we were defending OR (an alliance of ex-Viridians that would later help form OV, ironically) and were called to do so by two MADP partners (TORN and NPO, again ironically). Had the FIST thing never happened, I doubt we side against NpO in that war. I've already explained about Karma, war after that was BiPolar, which we actually tried to stay out of until NpO had hit GOD after leaving the war with them and we really would've been skipping out of our obligations. After that, we simply tried to get the rest of our allies out of the war, not demanding any reps. Then there was PB-Polar, which honestly shouldn't have been shocking since we've never tolerated spying, but that's a whole different story. Then the last two wars, one where we tried to politically defend GOD while trying to please our other allies at the same time, then this last one where we went all-in for GOD one last time. Is VE perfect? No, but then nobody is. We do try just as hard as anybody else, though.
[/quote]

Smooth is on record as to intentionally torpedoing that Q&A due to his own dislike for the idea of joining SF. That may or may not be true, but it is his claim.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Ogaden' timestamp='1346268207' post='3026419']
My god Cornelius why on earth did you step down.
o/ the good old days
[/quote]
The daily grind got to me. When you're in charge, you're expected to do a lot every day for months at a time. Eventually after all the dust from Karma settled and I looked around, I realized that I would have to keep doing it for who knows how long. There's no end to this game, after all. I decided to let some fresh blood work in the brave new world we all found ourselves in, after all they'd be as experienced in it as I was. In short, I was burnt out. 2010 was basically an off-year, 2011 I was head of FA for a while, now I just kind of hang around and help where I can.
[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1346272313' post='3026435']
Something is missing here.
[/quote]
Please, if you have a question, ask it. I don't have a lot else going on.

[Krack]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1346272972' post='3026438']
FARK fought a great war and did all anyone could have expected and more. I didn't intend to imply otherwise (although I can see where you could get that impression) I was just pointing out that Krack didn't know what he was talking about.
[/quote]

Yet you didn't refute anything I said. I know exactly what I'm talking about. I hate to break it to you, but for global influence purposes, SFs was FARK and Rok and a handful of their friends. GOD existed because of its friendship with FARK and RoK for years (not vice versa). KARMA was won because FARK pulled Gramlins to our side despite GOD's best efforts to sabotage the endeavor. This went on for months.

Then GOD destroyed SFs (and in turn, its own alliance) by making it well known that its relationship to VE was more valuable to it than its relationship to FARK. So that's what it got - GOD retained its relationship to VE and SFs lost FARK. How'd that work out for them? Hint: It worked out exactly as could be predicted (and was predicted).

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1346278187' post='3026460']
Oh dear God, how could anyone believe that...oh wait, it's Krack.

By the eve of the war everything was in place to ambush NPO and it was pulled off magnificently. NPO had antagonized far more than Citadel by that point, they weren't even listening to the warnings being given by their closest allies to expect a trap.
[/quote]

Oh, hey look ... it's the guy who sat in SFs leadership right up until it looked obvious we were about to get curbstomped, at which point he jumped to the other side. KARMA was no trap; the Karma side was going to get drilled right up until Moo insulted Crymson. Even some alliances we believed were solidly in our camp (like Gramlins) turned into weather vanes when the war appeared inevitable.

[Krack]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416']
Since I was Lord of VE for Karma, I thought I'd give my two cents. My personal motivation for that war was the protection of OV, and that was it. I felt they had been wronged in the lead-up to Karma, and I put my support behind what they felt was the appropriate response to that. If Seth felt that his ZI was best, we would have stood behind that, and if he wanted to continue to negotiate with NPO over a more fair resolution (as is what happened) then we would've stood behind that as well. I personally feared that I might be leading VE to a losing war, but felt that standing up for our ally was more important than winning. Xiphosis was more pro-war than I was (as were some of my fellow Viridians) while several members in C&G (which people tend to forget was also tied to OV) were more for appeasement. Now, we were lucky in several areas: 1. Moo attacked in the middle of TOP-sponsored peace talks, aggravating the Citadel alliances as stated before, 2. after realizing his potential mistake, tried to negotiate with Archon to leave the war and let TORN be a sacrificial lamb (which allowed Archon to then turn around and get TORN to surrender and bow out), and 3. the entire Coalition of Cowards fiasco (that would've gone off [i]much[/i] better had the DoW(s) simply been included in the same post) that basically swung most fence-sitters to our side. Karma could've easily swung the other way, but that would not have affected my decisions in the slightest. I can't speak for anybody else though.

As to our failure to join SF, yes, we did take FARK's support for granted. We had been on good relations with the other members beforehand (or we would never have reached that point) and without any tip-off to potential problems with the last member we simply assumed they had no major objections. Obviously, we were wrong. Smooth, being very active at the time, was there when most of the rest of the Viridian delegation wasn't (who had started talks then left for the night), and proceeded to get into a flamefest with several FARK-members. There were people to blame on both sides, but the important thing is when the more level-headed Viridians had returned the damage had been done, and relations with FARK were trashed for months and even years. FARK simply had no respect because of our disbandment, and Smooth and others felt our courage was insulted for the actions of one previous Lord..
[/quote]

This is an excellent accounting of what went on. I will add to it, however. There was an "informal get-together" between SFs' leadership and VE, which began with Smooth saying (paraphrase) "Well, we planned this meeting because we heard FARK didn't want us in SFs. So what's the problem?" Things were on the wrong foot from the start. Then we in FARK provided VE with its one and only test for admission in SFs: We asked what would happen if a SFs alliance was at war with another VE ally. VE flunked the test when it said it would "never allow that to happen".* Prompted more than once, the answer never changed ... even after we said we couldn't let an alliance into SFs with that stance. Smooth just kept becoming more abrasive.

This "informal" meeting went soooooo well that the FARK government who was at the meeting suggested letting Smooth talk to FARK's general membership (in Q&A format) - because prior to that meeting the membership had been slightly in favor of admitting VE. We figured it was easier to show the membership for themselves than try and explain it to them. And in spectacular fashion, Smooth flamed out in front of the entire membership - turning what had been a pro-admitting-VE crowd into a "we don't want to have anything to do with them" crowd literally overnight. Any notion that FARK had an antagonistic posture towards VE prior to this Q&A is simply inaccurate.

The posture towards VE (and GOD) became antagonistic when Xiph came in and decided to basically insult the entire FARK leadership because of the denial of SFs membership. As I remember it, prior to that tirade, the alliance had a "they seem okay, but we don't want to be tied to them until they prove themselves in a war" attitude towards VE. That was the attitude I had.

[size="1"]* Had Smooth said "Of course, we'd defend the SFs alliance 100% however we're asked," there's a good chance VE would have been in SFs by the end of that month.[/size]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416']And one last thing, I don't understand why some continue to label us as fence-sitters.
[/quote]


Here's why ...

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416']
We don't change sides arbitrarily, and try to stand by our allies [color="#FF0000"]whenever possible[/color].

After that, [color="#FF0000"]we simply tried to get the rest of our allies out of the war[/color], not demanding any reps.

Then the last two wars, one where [color="#FF0000"]we tried to politically defend GOD while trying to please our other allies at the same time[/color], then this last one where we went all-in for GOD one last time.
[/quote]

--------------------

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1346265606' post='3026416']
Is VE perfect? No, but then nobody is. We do try just as hard as anybody else, though.
[/quote]

I believe that you believe this, but that doesn't make it accurate.

[quote name='Mr Vicarious' timestamp='1346279328' post='3026471']
Smooth is on record as to intentionally torpedoing that Q&A due to his own dislike for the idea of joining SF. That may or may not be true, but it is his claim.
[/quote]

This is the first time I've ever heard this, but I honestly don't believe he's capable of intentionally doing as poor a job and wrecking a budding relationship as he did. It had to have been unintentional. Either that or he deserved the Tony award for that year.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Krack

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Mr Vicarious' timestamp='1346279328' post='3026471']
Smooth is on record as to intentionally torpedoing that Q&A due to his own dislike for the idea of joining SF. That may or may not be true, but it is his claim.
[/quote]
Honestly it wouldn't surprise me. But I do think it wasn't at least entirely intentional.
[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1346297903' post='3026550']
This is an excellent accounting of what went on. I will add to it, however. There was an "informal get-together" between SFs' leadership and VE, which began with Smooth saying (paraphrase) "Well, we planned this meeting because we heard FARK didn't want us in SFs. So what's the problem?" Things were on the wrong foot from the start. Then we in FARK provided VE with its one and only test for admission in SFs: We asked what would happen if a SFs alliance was at war with another VE ally. VE flunked the test when it said it would "never allow that to happen".* Prompted more than once, the answer never changed ... even after we said we couldn't let an alliance into SFs with that stance. Smooth just kept becoming more abrasive.This "informal" meeting went soooooo well that the FARK government who was at the meeting suggested letting Smooth talk to FARK's general membership (in Q&A format) - because prior to that meeting the membership had been slightly in favor of admitting VE. We figured it was easier to show the membership for themselves than try and explain it to them. And in spectacular fashion, Smooth flamed out in front of the entire membership - turning what had been a pro-admitting-VE crowd into a "we don't want to have anything to do with them" crowd literally overnight. Any notion that FARK had an antagonistic posture towards VE prior to this Q&A is simply inaccurate.The posture towards VE (and GOD) became antagonistic when Xiph came in and decided to basically insult the entire FARK leadership because of the denial of SFs membership. As I remember it, prior to that tirade, the alliance had a "they seem okay, but we don't want to be tied to them until they prove themselves in a war" attitude towards VE. That was the attitude I had.[size="1"]* Had Smooth said "Of course, we'd defend the SFs alliance 100% however we're asked," there's a good chance VE would have been in SFs by the end of that month.[/size]Here's why ...--------------------I believe that you believe this, but that doesn't make it accurate.This is the first time I've ever heard this, but I honestly don't believe he's capable of intentionally doing as poor a job and wrecking a budding relationship as he did. It had to have been unintentional. Either that or he deserved the Tony award for that year.
[/quote]
I'll admit we screwed up with regards to FARK, but mistakes were made on both sides. At this point it's all water under the bridge anyway. As for the parts in my quote you highlighted, the "whenever possible" part still resides in nearly every war we've fought in. GW2, UJW, WotC, Karma, BiPolar, and the last two we defended our allies, as well as countless smaller conflicts. The major wars that were the exceptions: GW3 we were jumped by two alliances and outnumbered, and PB-Polar we were defending ourselves against a spy attack (or aggressively attacking NpO, depending on your perspective). As for "we simply tried to get the rest of our allies out of the war" we did so by actually fighting against various alliances attacking our allies and forced peace. We even called it the "Viridian Surrender Tour". I don't know how that could possibly be construed as fence sitting. The last point is admittedly your best one, "we tried to politically defend GOD while trying to please our other allies at the same time" and the only defense I have for that is that we had promised TOP that we would not join the other side, so we kept our word. We did our best to limit the engagement politically, and when that failed when NebX attacked GOD we intervened directly with military force, though only on them alone, again, to keep our word. TOP were still angry, and technically they had a right to be, but we didn't abandon GOD there. As for the last point, about me not being accurate, we'll have to agree to disagree as it's nothing more than an opinion for either of us.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1346278187' post='3026460']
Oh dear God, how could anyone believe that...oh wait, it's Krack.
[/quote]
It's nice to know that people of different spheres like you and I can come to agreement at times.
[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1346166603' post='3025988']
I think you confuse "fail to realize" with [i]don't really care[/i]. You're an alliance of fence sitters. You sit on a fence and try to get a bunch of little meaningless ties to everyone so you can pick an choose who and when a friend is actually a friend and when they are just a treaty partner that is no longer valuable. It's why you have no strong allies and why the allies you do have only keep you around as long as you present value as meatshields to them. What's funny is that your alliance-mate (above) views this as a "successful" existance on Planet Bob; one must assume he echoes the sentiments of the rest of your alliance. The rest of us are laughing at you (and have been for years now). A tiger never changes his stripes - you were a bunch of disloyal fence sitters 4 years ago, and you're still a bunch of disloyal fence sitters. If that floats your boat? Terrific, enjoy yourselves.

I don't even like GOD. But what's right, is right - you owe your current existence to them.
[/quote]
As one of VE's meaningless ties I have to say, you're full of it. VE have always been there for us when we requested help, and I would not hesitate to defend them, were they to request our assistance. They were there for GOD too, they contributed to their defense in meaningful ways, both politically and on the field of battle. They are about the furthest thing from fence sitters.

What's it like to be so universally wrong, you manage to get a variety of very different spheres to agree on it?

[asawyer]

At this point I'm considering writing anti-VE propaganda and sending it to our enemies for free just to get a legitimate discussion going.

[Krack]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1346339433' post='3026643']
As one of VE's meaningless ties I have to say, you're full of it. VE have always been there for us when we requested help, and I would not hesitate to defend them, were they to request our assistance.
[/quote]

I'm sure they'd welcome your ankle [s]biting[/s] nibbling in their defense.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1346343891' post='3026656']
I'm sure they'd welcome your ankle [s]biting[/s] nibbling in their defense.
[/quote]
Well, proper coverage of all relevant ranges is quite valuable.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1346296930' post='3026544']
Oh, hey look ... it's the guy who sat in SFs leadership right up until it looked obvious we were about to get curbstomped, at which point he jumped to the other side. KARMA was no trap; the Karma side was going to get drilled right up until Moo insulted Crymson. Even some alliances we believed were solidly in our camp (like Gramlins) turned into weather vanes when the war appeared inevitable.
[/quote]

Maybe in the J. J. Abrams version where the writers were too lazy to go back and read the old scripts.

Here on Planet Bob, my leaving Ragnarok had 0% to do anything Xiph, any potential curbstomp, loyalty or disloyalty to NPO, or anything along those lines. It was an internal power struggle within Ragnarok's triumvirate I deliberately short circuited for the greater good. The choice of alliances to join once I left was made based upon which of Ragnarok's allies deserved my sword. I chose Valhalla knowing that there was a very good likelihood it would be decimated in the coming war. I hoped that my presence there would make a difference--and ultimately it did--not because I was a super warrior, but because in going there I found a renewed interest in Planet Bob and was able to help with rebuilding during a crucial time through recruiting and other activities post-war.

Long ago I posted logs of conversations I had with an anonymous source (a member of the Ragnarok triumvirate) in March 2009 after my departure from the alliance. In those logs (too bad you missed them) I voiced concern about Ragnarok being ready for the coming fight, and was reassured that they were. I was also told there was a plan to snare NPO and the everything was being meticulously planned so that there were no "stuff ups".

Now, could be that Gramlins turned flaky, I always worried that MK would based on experience, but they came through when it mattered. If Crymson was insulted by Moo then likely it was mock outrage--TOP already was out of NPO's orbit, whether NPO knew it or not. But all of NPO's closest allies knew that they were in for a beating if war came, if you thought otherwise when perhaps your nerves aren't as strong as you think they are.

That would be the ultimate irony--that the man you accused of losing the faith had more faith in Karma's victory over NPO than you did.

Edited August 30, 2012 by ChairmanHal