Question(s) for Ragnarok

[Wu Tang Clan]

This thread is dumb, and started by someone who obviously has no idea how treaties work. Now, we're tough talking each other about who will do what if we attack GOD. You all should just shut up and enjoy the war.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1323192135' post='2865781']
I don't see how that's much different or much better. Not needing permission means it doesn't matter what they say, which makes the talking a mere formality. Either you're abiding by their wishes or not. And if RoK wished for you to attack their own treaty partner, well...
[/quote]
Of course it's a formality. Following a treaty is a formality. Treaties are one big formality. I hope this doesn't come as a shock to you. Nordreich greatly values our allies and their opinions, views, and standpoints. We work as closely as we possibly can with our allies in nearly every venture, war or otherwise. We always have and they know that. But we don't need to seek permission from anyone to do anything.

I do what I want.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Captain Flinders

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='NeCoHo' timestamp='1323138364' post='2864775']
I'd imagine the nature of the bloc itself (regardless of the bloc) means that it supersedes any stand-alone MDP or MDoAP, but that's just how things were the past 6 years more or less.
[/quote]
This, more or less.

Depending on the circumstances, blocs > individual treaties. That's besides the matter though, we all knew RoK was never going to choose the MDoAP with Fark over MJ, especially not after that stunt they pulled attacking NPO. I love Fark to death but that was one move that disappointed even me.

Jaiar I thought you knew how treaties worked man?


[quote name='foxfire99' timestamp='1323186584' post='2865718']
If Rok hits GOD there won't be much of them left for NPL.
[/quote]
I laughed at this, well played sir.

[Locke]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1323192982' post='2865792']
Of course it's a formality. Following a treaty is a formality. Treaties are one big formality. I hope this doesn't come as a shock to you. Nordreich greatly values our allies and their opinions, views, and standpoints. We work as closely as we possibly can with our allies in nearly every venture, war or otherwise. We always have and they know that. But we don't need to seek permission from anyone to do anything.

I do what I want.
[/quote]
I just can't imagine how that makes for strong relationships. Relationships are mutual, not one party dictating to the other. Doing what you want tends to drive allies away. I don't think you're that dumb. I think you're just covering for RoK. They could never come out and say they approved this and expect not to get reamed for it. If you take responsibility, RoK gets to say they objected, and you get to attack Fark. Everyone wins. Except Fark, of course.

If you really are just that "freedom loving," well good luck to you, and I hope you don't end up seeing the consequences of it.

[Hereno]

Yeah this thread is really dumb. Not going to say I'm surprised, considering the average quality of Jaiar's posts.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Hereno

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1323194225' post='2865823']
I just can't imagine how that makes for strong relationships. Relationships are mutual, not one party dictating to the other. Doing what you want tends to drive allies away. I don't think you're that dumb. I think you're just covering for RoK. They could never come out and say they approved this and expect not to get reamed for it. If you take responsibility, RoK gets to say they objected, and you get to attack Fark. Everyone wins. Except Fark, of course.

If you really are just that "freedom loving," well good luck to you, and I hope you don't end up seeing the consequences of it.
[/quote]
And this is when a GOD member tells me how I should handle relationships and treaties. Yup, I'm tapping out. We'll see who suffers the consequences of their decisions.

[Locke]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1323195486' post='2865850']
And this is when a GOD member tells me how I should handle relationships and treaties. Yup, I'm tapping out. We'll see who suffers the consequences of their decisions.
[/quote]
Is that all you've got? You were just getting me interested and now you're running off with a tired insult (lol, you're in alliance x, you're wrong).

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1323195959' post='2865856']
Is that all you've got? You were just getting me interested and now you're running off with a tired insult (lol, you're in alliance x, you're wrong).
[/quote]
I've already said what I had to say. Take it or leave it. But I have to consider the source of your criticism and considering GOD's foreign policy has been considerably less than stellar, I don't put much value in your criticism.

[bcortell]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1323131663' post='2864635']
Today, Nordreich declared war on Farkistan, a Ragnarok ally...

Did you give the go ahead for Nordreich to attack Fark?

If you did, it seems similar to how Grub gave the go for TOP to hit MK. It's not nice to okay attacks on your ally.

It's equally horrible if you did know and just didn't bother to tell Fark.

Or did Nordreich just not tell you at all?

Whatever the case may be, there's treaty violations all over this.

Final question: Will Ragnarok defend Fark from those that attacked with optional clauses?

Bob Ilyani, you were all over crying out for ARES allies to come to their defense. Please don't be a hypocrite. Please don't betray Fark.
[/quote]
Treaty violations occur because people have so many damn treaties. If that's how they want to play the game, fine, but it's going to happen and hopefully the parties that treaty each other realize that.

Question for you: why does it matter if an AA attacks with an optional clause? Ever thought that some optional treaties are different than what you interpret them? I'd argue (correctly) that nearly all of the non-chaining MDoAP's are just masked as 'mandatory' treaties. They're optional mandatory treaties, and therefore an optional treaty. But, if you look at some AA's optional treaties, they say nearly the same thing and call the treaty what it is- optional.

But without getting to far off topic, I'd be surprised if either party didn't see something like this coming. (Didn't read past the OP yet, so maybe they've both said as much or something else.)

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1323133940' post='2864678']
Yes call out the legendary cowards in RIA. I'm sure we have one or two available aggressive war slots.
[/quote]
You guys are cowards for not coming to the defense of your mandatory treaty partner.

Edited December 6, 2011 by bcortell

[Jaiar]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1323192609' post='2865785']
This thread is dumb, and started by someone who obviously has no idea how treaties work. Now, we're tough talking each other about who will do what if we attack GOD. You all should just shut up and enjoy the war.
[/quote]
Non-chaining...yes we all know Rok does not have to defend Fark for the attacks it suffered yesterday, but Bob Ilyani was calling out ARES allies for not defending them. He wanted them to ignore non-chaining clauses just so that Rok could hit somebody.

Now Rok, don't be cowards. Get you some and declare on GOD. You have sigs up for Bob Ilyani's Viceroyship...do something about it or be cowards. Or what, you're going to wait until CSN or RnR gets in so you can hit them instead? Hit GOD and let's see what happens after that, or are you afraid of GOD's jolly green giant?

Also Wu, what did Rok know and when did you know it? Did you tell Fark about Nordreich's plans? Did you shrug and allow it? I hope the case is that they just didn't tell you, but from posts in this thread it seems you did know so I hope you at least told Fark. You wouldn't want to be compared to Grub now would you?

Edited December 6, 2011 by Jaiar

[Kirkhill]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1323186132' post='2865715']
Do you promise?
[/quote]

You and I can have a go if you like? You seem to have a hardon for NPL. I love RoK to death and would never want to fight them but you I can't stand. It would give you a chance at a NPL Nation and me a chance to mop the floor with you. What do ya say?

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1323196977' post='2865870']
Non-chaining...yes we all know Rok does not have to defend Fark for the attacks it suffered yesterday, but Bob Ilyani was calling out ARES allies for not defending them. He wanted them to ignore non-chaining clauses just so that Rok could hit somebody.

Now Rok, don't be cowards. Get you some and declare on GOD. You have sigs up for Bob Ilyani's Viceroyship...do something about it or be cowards. Or what, you're going to wait until CSN or RnR gets in so you can hit them instead? Hit GOD and let's see what happens after that, or are you afraid of GOD's jolly green giant?

Also Wu, what did Rok know and when did you know it? Did you tell Fark about Nordreich's plans? Did you shrug and allow it? I hope the case is that they just didn't tell you, but from posts in this thread it seems you did know so I hope you at least told Fark. You wouldn't want to be compared to Grub now would you?
[/quote]

Can you read what I said please Jaiar? And then discontinue this argument please. Viceroys are also illegal, they aren't serious about that.

Better not be, anyway.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1323197301' post='2865874']
Viceroys are also illegal, they aren't serious about that.
[/quote]

Are they illegal or is it just illegal in some of the powers a viceroy can take? I missed the time of viceroys so I have no idea about them.

[Locke]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1323196349' post='2865860']
I've already said what I had to say. Take it or leave it. But I have to consider the source of your criticism and considering GOD's foreign policy has been considerably less than stellar, I don't put much value in your criticism.
[/quote]
Explain to me what I personally have had to do with any of GOD's foreign policy in its history, please. I find it curious that for being in an alliance only a few months, I somehow am the cause of all its ills.

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1323197999' post='2865882']
Are they illegal or is it just illegal in some of the powers a viceroy can take? I missed the time of viceroys so I have no idea about them.
[/quote]
From what I understand, viceroyship (that is, the forced control of another alliance by a chosen member of another alliance) was deemed illegal in 2008. I could be wrong, so I'd appreciate it if someone from back then could clarify.

[Varianz]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1323198318' post='2865892']
From what I understand, viceroyship (that is, the forced control of another alliance by a chosen member of another alliance) was deemed illegal in 2008. I could be wrong, so I'd appreciate it if someone from back then could clarify.
[/quote]
It is illegal to force an alliance to give someone control (admin powers) over their alliance forums. However, viceroyship is legal as long as it stays in the purview of [OCC] the game [OCC]. That said, RoK have no intention of actually imposing a viceroy lol.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1323198535' post='2865896']
It is illegal to force an alliance to give someone control (admin powers) over their alliance forums. However, viceroyship is legal as long as it stays in the purview of [OCC] the game [OCC]. That said, RoK have no intention of actually imposing a viceroy lol.
[/quote]
Tbf, I don't think anyone could install a viceroy anymore even if they wanted to.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Gibsonator21

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1323198535' post='2865896']
It is illegal to force an alliance to give someone control (admin powers) over their alliance forums. However, viceroyship is legal as long as it stays in the purview of [OCC] the game [OCC]. That said, RoK have no intention of actually imposing a viceroy lol.
[/quote]
Ah, I see. Thanks for that clarification.

There's your answer Rena.

[Varianz]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1323198688' post='2865897']
Tbf, I don't think anyone could install a viceroy anymore even if they wanted to.
[/quote]
I mean, it depends entirely on the alliance surrendering. I agree that 90% of alliances in CN would disband rather than take a viceroy, but there are always some.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1323198834' post='2865903']
I mean, it depends entirely on the alliance surrendering. I agree that 90% of alliances in CN would disband rather than take a viceroy, but there are always some.
[/quote]

It's against the terms of service.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1323198120' post='2865886']
Explain to me what I personally have had to do with any of GOD's foreign policy in its history, please. I find it curious that for being in an alliance only a few months, I somehow am the cause of all its ills.
[/quote]
I didn't say you were the cause of the ills. But when you join an alliance, or choose to remain in an alliance, you are supporting the alliance, its members, its leaders, and its name. You are condoning GOD's practices by being a member. Therefore, your opinion or stance on most subjects, foreign affairs in particular, is not one that I would value. This is simple stuff man. I'm not breaking new ground here. If I really have to explain this to you, you probably shouldn't be trying to thrown down with people on the OWF.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Captain Flinders

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1323198834' post='2865903']
I mean, it depends entirely on the alliance surrendering. I agree that 90% of alliances in CN would disband rather than take a viceroy, but there are always some.
[/quote]
I think there would be a lot of "moral" outrage, too. Anyone who had the sack to go ahead and try installing a viceroy, successful or not, would likely be taking a major PR hit. I don't think most would risk trying it at this point.

[Locke]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1323199553' post='2865915']
I didn't say you were the cause of the ills. But when you join and alliance, or choose to remain in an alliance, you are supporting the alliance, its members, its leaders, and its name. You are condoning GOD's practices by being a member. Therefore, your opinion or stance on most subjects, foreign affairs in particular, is not one that I would value. This is simple stuff man. I'm not breaking new ground here. If I really have to explain this to you, you probably shouldn't be trying to thrown down with people on the OWF.
[/quote]
I didn't realize that being an alliance subjected you to a hivemind. Accepting responsibility for past actions and personally agreeing with every action taken are two different things and you know it. You're just trying to distract from the points I made previously by attacking my character rather than my argument. If that's all you have to say, then you're not much worth arguing with. Either you aren't capable of reasoned argument or don't wish it, but either way I'm done playing your game. Find someone a little dumber who's willing to indulge your inadequacies; I'm sure you won't lack for stock around here.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1323200197' post='2865924']
I didn't realize that being an alliance subjected you to a hivemind. Accepting responsibility for past actions and personally agreeing with every action taken are two different things and you know it. You're just trying to distract from the points I made previously by attacking my character rather than my argument. If that's all you have to say, then you're not much worth arguing with. Either you aren't capable of reasoned argument or don't wish it, but either way I'm done playing your game. Find someone a little dumber who's willing to indulge your inadequacies; I'm sure you won't lack for stock around here.
[/quote]
Alright then, I'll give you the chance to stand on your own right. Do you denounce the actions GOD's government has taken up to this point? Including, but not limited to, threatening their own allies with cancellations if they are not able to impose GOD's will upon their perceived sphere of influence. A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Kirkhill' timestamp='1323197061' post='2865872']
You and I can have a go if you like? You seem to have a hardon for NPL. I love RoK to death and would never want to fight them but you I can't stand. It would give you a chance at a NPL Nation and me a chance to mop the floor with you. What do ya say?
[/quote]

How do I have a hardon for NPL? Your boy is the one calling us out... Sorry if I'd love to oblige.

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1323196977' post='2865870']
Non-chaining...yes we all know Rok does not have to defend Fark for the attacks it suffered yesterday, but Bob Ilyani was calling out ARES allies for not defending them. He wanted them to ignore non-chaining clauses just so that Rok could hit somebody.

Now Rok, don't be cowards. Get you some and declare on GOD. You have sigs up for Bob Ilyani's Viceroyship...do something about it or be cowards. Or what, you're going to wait until CSN or RnR gets in so you can hit them instead? Hit GOD and let's see what happens after that, or are you afraid of GOD's jolly green giant?

Also Wu, what did Rok know and when did you know it? Did you tell Fark about Nordreich's plans? Did you shrug and allow it? I hope the case is that they just didn't tell you, but from posts in this thread it seems you did know so I hope you at least told Fark. You wouldn't want to be compared to Grub now would you?
[/quote]

1.) It has nothing to do with non-chaining. I'd suggest you look up the context of the war.

2.) I knew nothing of Nor's attack on FARK personally; nor would I want to know. If they had told us it would put us in a $#!% position either betraying the trust of one ally or another. There are situations that arise in global politics that force you to do questionable actions with the best intent in mind. I recognize this, I respect this. I don't enjoy the situation, but it is what it is; now we deal with it.