Official announcement from the Legion

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1320122534' post='2836265']
Stuarts just in there, you should ignore him as always. That second log was for world conquerer. The contest set by Mr. Sykes was to find two government members stating it and I did with about 2 seconds of work.
[/quote]
Are you really trying to use that one line from me as some kind of claim that we would win one on one? That's !@#$@#$ ridiculous even for you.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320123046' post='2836270']
Our pride is to not give in to an opponent we've spent a great deal of time mocking and deriding.
[/quote]

I know, that is what I said. In order to maintain that pride you deny the obvious. That is, you are losing the war to the alliance you told us was completely and utterly useless at war. Your pride has already been damaged whether you choose to see it or not.

[quote]
So what does that have to do with PR, exactly, Tyga? When we surrendered in BiPolar, it wasn't to an opponent we had openly antagonized for months beforehand. When we went to war with RoK, we just didn't get along with them, rather than hold them in utter contempt as being beneath us.
[/quote]

It has to do with PR because you do not want to lose face in front of the rest of the community by giving in to an opponent you have spent so much time mocking and deriding publicly. The consistent posting here from NSO members suggests they do care what people outside the NSO think.

[quote]
Circumstances are different. And everyone with two neurons to rub together knows that. You surely fall into that category, don't you?
[/quote]

I never mentioned any specific previous time you surrendered, just mentioned you had surrendered in the past so the act of surrendering is not what is stopping you conceding defeat here. This you, apparently, agree with so I'm not sure what tree you are trying to bark up here as you appear to have either completely missed the point or are being deliberately obtuse. Knowing you, it is most likely the latter.

[quote]
Er...Demonstrate the causation?

How does the fact that we, as an alliance, can not stomach the idea of surrendering to the Legion equate to us considering how others besides ourselves view things serve as the motivational factor in that stance? This is why that is bad spin. Because the idea is demonstrably stupid.
[/quote]

It isn't demonstrably stupid at all. It is obvious to everyone but yourselves, apparently. You made your claims publicly so backing down and surrendering to Legion now not only causes you internal embarrassment but global embarrassment. They are not mutually exclusive. The fact NSO has invested so much time in these discussions trying to convince the world they are not losing only supports my opinion. If you didn't or don't care what the rest of us think why bother with the Baghdad Bob routine? Doesn't make any sense to me if what you claim is true.

[quote]
So you really believe that?

Tragic. And here I thought that since you already knew better than that, you would only resort to lying in the face of facts to which you are well aware. I suppose that even you, Tyga, allow the shape of the treaty web to decide your opinions for you.
[/quote]

You haven't shown me to be lying about anything yet you keep making the accusation as though it is itself a fact. How does the treaty web shape my opinion of what is playing aout before my eyes? My alliance is, treaty-wise, one step from either side of the conflict. STA-TPF-NSO or STA-NpO-Legion, so how exactly does the treaty web shape or decide my opinion?

[quote]
Only the bolded.

And kind of you to at least, accidentally, acknowledge that the two are very much separate potential motivations.
[/quote]

As per my comment above, ifit were only your pride you would not be making such a racket in reply to the general community here. I mean, it seems odd that a group who do not care what others think of them spend so much time trying to prove to those people they do not care about that they are not losing a war they clearly are losing. A group of people who do not care what outsiders think would not bother.

[quote]
It's pretty obvious that you're being anything but honest, Tyga.
[/quote]

Again, you have not shown any example of me speaking dishonestly. I'm not sure how I could be lying about my opinion based on the information before me.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1320126511' post='2836317']
That would be akin to you not doing tech deals while some alliance or the other was ZI-ing you. You for one should not be telling others to refrain from using all the tools and means at their disposal.

i do not see anything wrong with an alliance wishing to use any means necessary [within the bounds of the laws of the realm] to try and ensure victory or stave off defeat. Or to cause as much damage as it can before it finally can not do any more. Or would you rather people stop drop and roll all the time at the first little setback they face?

Just to be clear, i am not making a value judgement here on who is wrong or right, or who is beaten or victorious at this point, all i am saying is, to make snide comments like "admit defeat if you bring in allies at this point" like so many here have been making, is nothing but people trying too hard. Sure it may inconvenience you if the war goes on longer, or you may wish to see the NSO be defeated, but hey, step in the ring and take a shot if that is what you want bad enough. If not, sit back, watch as the flames grow larger, bring marshmallows and beer, keep your gun cocked, and chill out. Winter can always wait.
[/quote]
I'm not saying it would be wrong for NSO to call for help if they need it, although if Legion is pretty much willing to give white peace it seems unnecessary. If NSO's allies want to get involved and NSO is determined to win regardless of cost, then I won't make a fuss over it. I don't think them calling in more allies would be the same as admitting defeat, although I don't think to just peace out if the option is available to them would be a bad move. I've stepped into the ring to assist NSO before without any reason other than liking some of their members and being a former member, such as when I declared on VE during the $6m war back when Kerberos Nexus was around (as well as fought FOK, Fark, GO and CSN as a member throughout the entire BiPolar War). Whatever NSO does is up to them, but I don't think it would be a sign of weakness for them to accept a similar peace as NsO and others who were fighting alongside them took as long as they don't leave Tetris to fight on their own. If NSO peaces out at the same time as Tetris with no reps for either, that would an accomplishment in itself considering all the help they've provided for Tetris.

I have no intention of getting involved here and I'm just observing this one. Also when I do tech deals during war its usually because of a combination of the enemy also doing tech deals during the conflict, receiving assistance from other alliances, as well as wanting to keep the war going after I'm ZI while asking for large reps to end the war.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Methrage

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='mq3eleven' timestamp='1320122672' post='2836267']
It really isn't. An alliance coming out of left field and rolling both alliances would be entertaining.
[/quote]

Got to say, that's pretty tempting.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320131132' post='2836336']
Got to say, that's pretty tempting.
[/quote]
Did you forget one of them is Tetris, or...?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1320131355' post='2836337']
Did you forget one of them is Tetris, or...?
[/quote]

Thinking he was talking about you fine folks and your purple equivalents from across the aisle, since Tetris has made literally like 5 posts in this thread, all of them respectful.

Also yea man, rolling Tetris at update. Twice.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320131630' post='2836338']
Also yea man, rolling Tetris at update. Twice.
[/quote]
Dibs on one of USMC's slots. You do hand out temporary wartime letters of marque, right?

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320131630' post='2836338']
Thinking he was talking about you fine folks and your purple equivalents from across the aisle, since Tetris has made literally like 5 posts in this thread, all of them respectful.

Also yea man, rolling Tetris at update. Twice.
[/quote]
He was responding to a post about drama, so I assumed he meant both sides.

And yea man, good way to support them by acting hard towards their only still fighting allies, right?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1320132435' post='2836344']
He was responding to a post about drama, so I assumed he meant both sides.

And yea man, good way to support them by acting hard towards their only still fighting allies, right?
[/quote]

I don't think you're advancing their interests anymore and have done everything in your power to make this about you, even though they are the stemming point for this war. I also think your alliance is the only thing keeping them from moving on with their lives at this point and continuing down the good path that they have been on since their new administration took over. So yea, I have no reason to be nice to you, even though I was kidding around when you felt the need to respond like a drama queen (shocking news).

Also, I don't like you very much. Don't forget that part.

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1320131738' post='2836340']
Dibs on one of USMC's slots. You do hand out temporary wartime letters of marque, right?
[/quote]

Fine, so long as you mess his face up real good.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[johnathan buck]

OOOOOO Impero could make this very interesting >

[magicninja]

Legion is trying hard to turn this from what most would view as a good, hard fought victory by just giving straight up white peace now into a horrific nightmarish defeat for itself and their allies if they keep up their line of making NSO admit defeat.....it's almost painful to watch.

Get while the getting is good Legion. There is nowhere to go but down from here...trust me. You will do one of two things if you try to stay this course...you will eventually give the white peace and then you will look like you caved...or... NSO's allies will eventually join ending all hope of any kind of victory for you. You need to realize this now because when it all does go down no one will have any sympathy for you because quite frankly most will view it as you having brought it upon yourselves.

[USMC123]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1320131738' post='2836340']
Dibs on one of USMC's slots. You do hand out temporary wartime letters of marque, right?
[/quote]

You're going to have to shed some NS :V

[johnathan buck]

[quote name='USMC123' timestamp='1320134829' post='2836348']
You're going to have to shed some NS :V
[/quote]

*raises hand*

hey hey hey hey after you recover a bit let's have that one week war we talked about

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1320134560' post='2836347']
Legion is trying hard to turn this from what most would view as a good, hard fought victory by just giving straight up white peace now into a horrific nightmarish defeat for itself and their allies if they keep up their line of making NSO admit defeat.....it's almost painful to watch.

Get while the getting is good Legion. There is nowhere to go but down from here...trust me. You will do one of two things if you try to stay this course...you will eventually give the white peace and then you will look like you caved...or... NSO's allies will eventually join ending all hope of any kind of victory for you. You need to realize this now because when it all does go down no one will have any sympathy for you because quite frankly most will view it as you having brought it upon yourselves.
[/quote]

OR!!! You're wrong.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320133240' post='2836345']
I don't think you're advancing their interests anymore and have done everything in your power to make this about you, even though they are the stemming point for this war. I also think your alliance is the only thing keeping them from moving on with their lives at this point and continuing down the good path that they have been on since their new administration took over. So yea, I have no reason to be nice to you, even though I was kidding around when you felt the need to respond like a drama queen (shocking news).

Also, I don't like you very much. Don't forget that part.
[/quote]
We didn't make this about us, Legion and their hangers-on did, since they've consistently been bringing up our posting of spy reports and whatever else, even though this war is supposedly about Tetris. And from what I gather Tetris are opposed to the Legion's terms as well, so that's hardly something you can put on us. Anyway, you can try and characterize it as being a drama queen, but all I was doing is pointing out you falling over yourself to act all tough and threatening towards us when we're here fighting for your ally (shocking news).

[magicninja]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320135351' post='2836351']
OR!!! You're wrong.
[/quote]

We've all been hanging around the same world. I know I'm not the only one to have come to this conclusion. If it were any alliance other than NSO here I would probably be wrong. Since it is NSO....they won't ever cop to what Legion wants here...ever so like I said nowhere to go but down for Legion here.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='USMC123' timestamp='1320134829' post='2836348']
You're going to have to shed some NS :V
[/quote]
For you? Anytime! Everytime!
OOC [spoiler]
PS: Give my regards to that fine crockery you have at home.[/spoiler]/OOC

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1320136462' post='2836354']
We've all been hanging around the same world. I know I'm not the only one to have come to this conclusion. If it were any alliance other than NSO here I would probably be wrong. Since it is NSO....they won't ever cop to what Legion wants here...ever so like I said nowhere to go but down for Legion here.
[/quote]
I think it is funny how folks have been drinking too much of the PR/karma/"omg what will the people say" brand koolaid to realise that mere verbal barbs on this international discussion forum will not prevent other interested parties from intervening to safeguard the interests of their allies and by extension their own interests. If someone really wants to deter any escalation or intervention, there has to be a credible deterrent in the form of possible warfare, which... needs to be big enough for the others to worry about. Till such time, all is merely hot air and a lot of hoohaa.

If RoK or another NSO ally were to make up its mind about entering here, no amount of "OMG PR Debaclezzzz!!!!" is going to prevent them coming n and breaking some !@#$ and getting blown up for the NSO. Strange how NSO is allied to some of the most "dont give a flying $%&@ about stats" kind of people.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Alfred von Tirpitz

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1320136462' post='2836354']
We've all been hanging around the same world. I know I'm not the only one to have come to this conclusion. If it were any alliance other than NSO here I would probably be wrong. Since it is NSO....they won't ever cop to what Legion wants here...ever so like I said nowhere to go but down for Legion here.
[/quote]

I'm still failing to see how NSO failing to accept reality officially, the same reality that a few NSO members have accepted privately in this thread is somehow Legion's problem.
NSO attacked the Legion. Implying that the Legion should feel threatened because NSO would do anything it could to prolong a conflict that quite easily could have been resolved with quite the generous surrender terms provided them by Legion if not for hubris and bluster is not warranted. The fallacious argument that because it is white peace conditional on admitting reality and is not [i]just[/i] white peace is invalid. No extortion is occurring, no false statements are being forced. Just reality.

As Impero mentioned, it's becoming hard to take the NSO seriously as having the best interest of its ally in Tetris in mind, whom have acted quite respectably throughout.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320137659' post='2836362']
I'm still failing to see how NSO failing to accept reality officially, the same reality that a few NSO members have accepted privately in this thread is somehow Legion's problem.
NSO attacked the Legion. Implying that the Legion should feel threatened because NSO would do anything it could to prolong a conflict that quite easily could have been resolved with quite the generous surrender terms provided them by Legion if not for hubris and bluster is not warranted. The fallacious argument that because it is white peace conditional on admitting reality and is not [i]just[/i] white peace is invalid. No extortion is occurring, no false statements are being forced. Just reality.

As Impero mentioned, it's becoming hard to take the NSO seriously as having the best interest of its ally in Tetris in mind, whom have acted quite respectably throughout.
[/quote]
There is also the teensy weensy possibility of people still wanting the Legion to "Eat !@#$ and Die" for their own reasons either new ones or from a time gone by. There is also a possibility that folks simply do not care and would enter for the sake of a good war, or do not care and will enter if an ally requests aid, regardless f the potential damage to them and their own future plans.

What i am saying, is simply that unless there is a formal declared end to the war, all we have is a "current trend as per stats" we do not have a foregone conclusion to the war. To write off anyone at this stage is silly. Keeping this in mind, i believe the NSO and Tetris have all the right in the world to go on fighting and using all the means available to them in order to further their goals and desires. Till such time as we see an actual official end to the war. Most often by the way of a formal document signed by the governments of all those involved in the conflict.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1320138004' post='2836363']
There is also the teensy weensy possibility of people still wanting the Legion to "Eat !@#$ and Die" for their own reasons either new ones or from a time gone by. There is also a possibility that folks simply do not care and would enter for the sake of a good war, or do not care and will enter if an ally requests aid, regardless f the potential damage to them and their own future plans.

What i am saying, is simply that unless there is a formal declared end to the war, all we have is a "current trend as per stats" we do not have a foregone conclusion to the war. To write off anyone at this stage is silly. Keeping this in mind, i believe the NSO and Tetris have all the right in the world to go on fighting and using all the means available to them in order to further their goals and desires. Till such time as we see an actual official end to the war. Most often by the way of a formal document signed by the governments of all those involved in the conflict.
[/quote]

[spoiler]Well if it is all redundant, wouldn't pointing the redundancy out also be redundant?


The beauty of it all is making sure that fact isn't lost on all. That this discussion has lasted so long is not an indicator of what Legion has to lose, that's for sure. [/spoiler]

I disagree with one of your premises, however: No matter what happens after this point, that the time that has elapsed prior will still have occurred, whether that ends with people attempting to act on the other means to an ends you speak of or simply NSO wising up and accepting reality, nothing will change that. I also disagree that as some others have indicated the rest of this event is predicated to a negative outcome to the Legion.

Edited November 1, 2011 by IYIyTh

[magicninja]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320137659' post='2836362']
I'm still failing to see how NSO failing to accept reality officially, the same reality that a few NSO members have accepted privately in this thread is somehow Legion's problem.
NSO attacked the Legion. Implying that the Legion should feel threatened because NSO would do anything it could to prolong a conflict that quite easily could have been resolved with quite the generous surrender terms provided them by Legion if not for hubris and bluster is not warranted. The fallacious argument that because it is white peace conditional on admitting reality and is not [i]just[/i] white peace is invalid. No extortion is occurring, no false statements are being forced. Just reality.

As Impero mentioned, it's becoming hard to take the NSO seriously as having the best interest of its ally in Tetris in mind, whom have acted quite respectably throughout.
[/quote]

Look Myth, I know NSO very well having been allies and talking to them a lot on a personal level. They are never going to cop to Legion's simple demands regardless of how true it is now or eventually probably will be if things stayed as they are. Why? They just will never give Legion the satisfaction. That is how they roll. Legion is actually empowering NSO the longer this goes on. If Legion gave plain white peace now I'm sure a great majority would give Legion the benefit of the victory here. The longer they try to push this admitting defeat thing, even if it is true, the stupider and softer they are going to look when they don't get it. Do you understand that? I'm sure everyone else does. That, at this point, is best case right now. That's not what Legion really wants after all this....surely. Worst case NSO's allies get fed up and roll and then stuff really gets interesting.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1320139024' post='2836367']
Look Myth, I know NSO very well having been allies and talking to them a lot on a personal level. They are never going to cop to Legion's simple demands regardless of how true it is now or eventually probably will be if things stayed as they are. Why? They just will never give Legion the satisfaction. That is how they roll. Legion is actually empowering NSO the longer this goes on. If Legion gave plain white peace now I'm sure a great majority would give Legion the benefit of the victory here. The longer they try to push this admitting defeat thing, even if it is true, the stupider and softer they are going to look when they don't get it. Do you understand that? I'm sure everyone else does. That, at this point, is best case right now. That's not what Legion really wants after all this....surely. Worst case NSO's allies get fed up and roll and then stuff really gets interesting.
[/quote]

Your premise is that the entire world cares enough about NSO's lack of accepting reality to intervene in its favor. You're right, NSO is attempting to make this all about them, and many a great amount of people have other motives to attempt to fan the flames. In fact, many [i]might[/i] give Legion the "benefit of the doubt," (There is no doubt, insinuating there is any is just humerous at this point.) for caving to an alliance that has aggressively attacked it. Legion has wanted, and has stood up for itself and will continue to do so.

I have a hard time buying that NSO's allies' allies are content taking bullets for the sake of NSO's delusions, which is what any intervention would risk.
I think the worst case scenario is that people pretend that NSO has any legs to stand on and decide to decimate themselves further against an alliance that has stood up for themselves and has offered what in most recent times can be regarded as some of the most lenient surrender terms given the overwhelming acceptance of the CB despite being aggressively attacked and mocked at nearly every turn.

Sure, the events you speak of [i]could[/i] happen. That doesn't mean they should.

[WorldConqueror]

Defending an ally = aggression according to MHA. No wonder they've had such trouble with that whole 'Mutual Defense' thing.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1320139908' post='2836370']
Defending an ally = aggression according to MHA. No wonder they've had such trouble with that whole 'Mutual Defense' thing.
[/quote]

Not that you deserve a response, but I'm referring to NSO's very active role in Tetris' part in this whole affair.

We can all pretend that didn't happen either, just like you not being humbled/defeated by Legion either.

[Coyote]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320030790' post='2835467']
We still had to pick up the slack for them and absorb a significantly higher amount of attacks than we should have, so yes that has been unnecessary. And now we're still fighting because Legion, and those pressuring behind the scenes, are too gluttonous to just walk away with the progress that they've made and would rather demand more than we can give.
[/quote]

More than you can give? I can't give y'all a million dollars, but whether or not I want to or intend to, I can say sorry to anyone I want. You can take the surrender option. You are, however, choosing not to.