The Overtime Accords

[Banedon]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304610797' post='2706883']
Now, that's putting words in his mouth. Naughty, naughty.
[/quote]


No. He's not.

ODN's protectorate is sending ODN tech in the middle of a shooting war. CoJ tells the protectorate to knock it off. Aid packages to combatant alliances have been a CB for ages. That's what triggered the "6 Million Dollar War". And now ODN makes CoJ appologize for antagonizing their protectorate for even talking about how aid can be a valid CB. So I guess that means that ODN/DH/CnG/TOP/PB no longer consider tech dealing to alliances actively at war a valid CB? So I suppose if NpO or STA or Legion decided to send tech to NPO while their upper tier is getting crushed, you guys would be cool with that?

Afterall, you just made CoJ sign terms stating that even telling a small alliance what they are doing could be a seen as a CB was inappropriate. What would have happened if CoJ had not stopped at conversation but actually "Done something about it."?

You'd be redeclaring on us in a second if we aided NPO in a similar fashion. You're hypocrites and liars, and bad ones at that.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Banedon

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1304583574' post='2706733']
We might if you actually told us.
[/quote]

All the facts are there for you to put things together on your own.


[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1304607403' post='2706852']
I don't think you understand that scene as well as you think you do. That leader arrogantly broke the very code he claimed to be upholding and wrote it off as necessity, whatever fancy speech he wanted to give to justify it. He got what was coming to him in the end.[/quote]

Nah man I understand it perfectly, I just cherry picked the line, not the plot :x

[quote]
Do I make the same call and attack NPO preemptively as was done in this war? Damn right I do. But sometimes that group of "armed militia" in the open really was just a family gathering and a judgment call results in death of innocents. That is one of the tragedies of war. I'll give your faction the benefit of the doubt and accept that a judgment call was made in attacking NPO. However, to date I have seen NO evidence that NPO was actually planning on entering the war, though as I have indicated elsewhere, they [i]should[/i] have done so before they were attacked. What I have been reading however is a lot of "yes they were", "no we weren't". Whether the whole Pacifica theater of the war was the correct call may never be known definitively. [b]Your side won a victory, but don't rationalize it into some sort of high moral crusade against absolute evil doers.[/b] That's not what outsiders are seeing.
[/quote]

And that's the point, I'm not. Anyone who is going down that line of thought is just trying to pour some honey on it for the masses, and the rest of that cutesy stuff should have been left out of the DoW. It was, definitively, a military decision as part of the larger global war. There was enough evidence that parties were trying to keep NPO out/manipulate their entry into an opportune field for myself and others to sit down and say "ok, it's too close to risk it, lets go this route". As you said, you would have made the same call that we did, so I'm pretty sure you understand perfectly what I'm saying.

NPO won't be attacked again randomly in 6 months simply because MK or whoever doesn't like them, because that's not why they were attacked now.
CB's are still needed to kick off a large war.

That's all there is to it.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Solaris]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1304612827' post='2706906']
No. He's not.

ODN's protectorate is sending ODN tech in the middle of a shooting war. CoJ tells the protectorate to knock it off. Aid packages to combatant alliances have been a CB for ages. That's what triggered the "6 Million Dollar War". And now ODN makes CoJ appologize for antagonizing their protectorate for even talking about how aid can be a valid CB. So I guess that means that ODN/DH/CnG/TOP/PB no longer consider tech dealing to alliances actively at war a valid CB? So I suppose if NpO or STA or Legion decided to send tech to NPO while their upper tier is getting crushed, you guys would be cool with that?

Afterall, you just made CoJ sign terms stating that even telling a small alliance what they are doing could be a seen as a CB was inappropriate. What would have happened if CoJ had not stopped at conversation but actually "Done something about it."?

You'd be redeclaring on us in a second if we aided NPO in a similar fashion. You're hypocrites and liars, and bad ones at that.
[/quote]
I don't think Kowalski evaluated the reasons why ODN wanted the apology, Banedon, which is the reason that him being glad to see an apology (etc) does not necessarily imply agreement with certain principles Schattenmann mentioned above. It's elementary.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Solaris

[Banedon]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304614958' post='2706923']
I don't think Kowalski evaluated the reasons why ODN wanted the apology, Banedon, which is the reason that him being glad to see an apology (etc) does not necessarily imply agreement with certain principles Schattenmann mentioned above. It's elementary.
[/quote]

I can't claim to know Kowalski's mind, I'm not a mind reader.

I do have a hard time understanding how anyone could be glad an apology was given without also supporting the reason(s) stated for the apology's neccessity.

I can draw an analogy if you'd like but I'm sicking of reading crazy analogies in these threads.

[mrwuss]

I am glad to see everyone has come to the agreement that I am the best person on the planet.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1304614534' post='2706919']
And that's the point, I'm not. Anyone who is going down that line of thought is just trying to pour some honey on it for the masses, and the rest of that cutesy stuff should have been left out of the DoW. It was, definitively, a military decision as part of the larger global war. There was enough evidence that parties were trying to keep NPO out/manipulate their entry into an opportune field for myself and others to sit down and say "ok, it's too close to risk it, lets go this route". As you said, you would have made the same call that we did, so I'm pretty sure you understand perfectly what I'm saying.

NPO won't be attacked again randomly in 6 months simply because MK or whoever doesn't like them, because that's not why they were attacked now.
CB's are still needed to kick off a large war.

That's all there is to it.
[/quote]
Right, now you don't even need a CB against Pacifica, you just need one against some alliance three treaties removed from NPO so you can have yourselves another curbie. What a wonderful new world.

Edited May 5, 2011 by HeroofTime55

[fant0m]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304610527' post='2706881']
Nice to see you agree with ODN that aiding nations at war is not an act of war. I guess you must also agree with CoJ's stance that JimKongIl was not a "rogue" for aiding Methrage; therefore, CoJ was correct not to sanction him for your big buddies GOONS. We call this a catch-22, and I will be happy to cite/consider GOONS's, Umbrella's, MK's, VE's, et al endorsement of ODN's position when determining whether sanctions are warranted in the future, after all, you guys made us sign it.
[/quote]

Dominant alliances continue to receive external money/tech during war whereas alliances on the weaker side are not afforded such luxuries. Why would you allow your enemy any external assistance if it can be prevented.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='mrwuss' timestamp='1304618110' post='2706951']
I am glad to see everyone has come to the agreement that I am the best person on the planet.
[/quote]

That planet being located [url="http://www.solstation.com/stars2/51pegasi.htm"]here[/url].

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='fant0m' timestamp='1304618586' post='2706953']
Dominant alliances continue to receive external money/tech during war whereas alliances on the weaker side are not afforded such luxuries. Why would you allow your enemy any external assistance if it can be prevented.
[/quote]
We wouldn't, hence why we tried to prevent it.

Dominant alliances may receive money, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still an act of war. Something ODN lied to their protectorate about - good job guys!

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304618498' post='2706952']
Right, now you don't even need a CB against Pacifica, you just need one against some alliance three treaties removed from NPO so you can have yourselves another curbie. What a wonderful new world.[/quote]

The point being is that there was no right or wrong answer given the information provided, only a decision to be made. Whether in the end the attack on NPO was justified is up to history.

Rather clearly though Pacifica and its allies (you among them) cannot keep up with the coalition that DH can build. That should mean that in the future that NPO is far less likely to be attacked as a preemptive measure, though rather clearly NPO has significant FA work to do to make any sort of guarantee of that.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1304616998' post='2706941']
I do have a hard time understanding how anyone could be glad an apology was given without also supporting the reason(s) stated for the apology's neccessity.
[/quote]
While many people may support a similar phenomena (i.e. like an apology, for example), they usually have their own reasons to do so, which often vary, and indeed always vary, given sufficient amount of individual minds supporting the phenomena in question. This should become obvious to anyone who remains mindful of international communications, but given the state of international communications, I wouldn't hold disregarding open communication venues against anyone.

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304610527' post='2706881']
Nice to see you agree with ODN that aiding nations at war is not an act of war. I guess you must also agree with CoJ's stance that JimKongIl was not a "rogue" for aiding Methrage; therefore, CoJ was correct not to sanction him for your big buddies GOONS. We call this a catch-22, and I will be happy to cite/consider GOONS's, Umbrella's, MK's, VE's, et al endorsement of ODN's position when determining whether sanctions are warranted in the future, after all, you guys made us sign it.
[/quote]
Like I said, nice to see CoJ apologising and paying reps.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1304619341' post='2706960']
The point being is that there was no right or wrong answer given the information provided, only a decision to be made. Whether in the end the attack on NPO was justified is up to history.

Rather clearly though Pacifica and its allies (you among them) cannot keep up with the coalition that DH can build. That should mean that in the future that NPO is far less likely to be attacked as a preemptive measure, though rather clearly NPO has significant FA work to do to make any sort of guarantee of that.
[/quote]
Their point is incorrect; There was a "right" and a "wrong" decision to be made. They chose the wrong one.

And if we are not at the point where the New Hegemony is now attacking people merely to cut down potential political threats... Well, I guess they're not really trying anymore to hide the fact that they are far worse than NPO ever was.

[mrwuss]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304619963' post='2706965']
Their point is incorrect; There was a "right" and a "wrong" decision to be made. They chose the wrong one.

And if we are not at the point where the New Hegemony is now attacking people merely to cut down potential political threats... Well, I guess they're not really trying anymore to hide the fact that they are far worse than NPO ever was.
[/quote]

Right and wrong are subjective.


Sorry charlie.

[SADeki]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304619045' post='2706957']
We wouldn't, hence why we tried to prevent it.
[/quote]

Preventing it would have required more than one or two CoJ and 64Digits members to actually leave peace mode.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1304619963' post='2706965']
PARADIGM DRACONIAN STRAW MAN WORSE THAN NPO AD HOMINEM NEW HEGEMONY BRAVE NEW WORLD
[/quote]

So I'm guessing it just amuses you to post reply's that contain as many of the 7th grade debate class tag lines as possible, even if it has no relation to what your quoting, right? I mean, why don't you save yourself time and c/p the above 40 times in every thread.

Just trying to help.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1304620492' post='2706975']
So I'm guessing it just amuses you to post reply's that contain as many of the 7th grade debate class tag lines as possible, even if it has no relation to what your quoting, right? I mean, why don't you save yourself time and c/p the above 40 times in every thread.

Just trying to help.
[/quote]
I don't find it any more annoying than your poorly spelled and alien first-year-law-student and/or Matlock fan latin legal arguments.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1304605436' post='2706835']
Attacked for literally no reason: check
Reps pursued from people who aided him: check
Lack of functioning alliance command structure: check
Sanctioned by every major color except red: check

He was a rogue then, and he's still a rogue now. People should not be giving him a shred of legitimacy.
[/quote]
Attacked NPO for literally no reason: check
Reps pursued from NPO allies: check
Lack of functioning alliance command structure: check
Sanctioned by every major colour except red:

3/4 isn't too bad dh. Keep trying, you might make it someday.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1304614534' post='2706919']
All the facts are there for you to put things together on your own.
[/quote]

It's kind of hard when you start with one thing and then bring out another 30 or so that take it to another direction. If I could piece them together I imagine it would look something like either:

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l4SHtbm74lE/TWv_bzS-gYI/AAAAAAAAAbA/8HM2fx_6kfA/s1600/insanity_mario.jpg[/img]

or what Moo left behind in one of his walks.

I'm going to go on a hunch and say b for some reason.

[Ardus]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1304624604' post='2707015']
Attacked NPO for literally no reason: check
Reps pursued from NPO allies: check
Lack of functioning alliance command structure: check
Sanctioned by every major colour except red:

3/4 isn't too bad dh. Keep trying, you might make it someday.
[/quote]
That was the first and most clever thing I've ever seen you post. I want you to freeze and study this moment for future reference.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1304606144' post='2706843']
I'd love to hear what makes you think Methrage was not a rogue, exactly.
[/quote]
If a rogue joins a 2-man AA of which he's the leader, he's not a rogue anymore, obviously. Schattenmann is making a political statement that anyone who makes up their own AA is excluded from the threat of being considered a rogue regardless of their actions. At least, if they're on the red sphere. Although it would be interesting to test this theory in more/less biased situations, like some GOONs making up their own new AA to attack CoJ with.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL11.jpg[/img]

[Ardus]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304625320' post='2707022']
If a rogue joins a 2-man AA of which he's the leader, he's not a rogue anymore, obviously. Schattenmann is making a political statement that anyone who makes up their own AA is excluded from the threat of being considered a rogue regardless of their actions. At least, if they're on the red sphere. Although it would be interesting to test this theory in more/less biased situations, like some GOONs making up their own new AA to attack CoJ with.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL11.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I think this conflict has shown such methods to be wholly unnecessary.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1304625320' post='2707022']
If a rogue joins a 2-man AA of which he's the leader, he's not a rogue anymore, obviously. Schattenmann is making a political statement that anyone who makes up their own AA is excluded from the threat of being considered a rogue regardless of their actions. At least, if they're on the red sphere. Although it would be interesting to test this theory in more/less biased situations, like some GOONs making up their own new AA to attack CoJ with.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL11.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I thought that was the point of dh?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304622930' post='2707005']
I don't find it any more annoying than your poorly spelled and alien first-year-law-student and/or Matlock fan latin legal arguments.
[/quote]


Hey little buddy, listen, struggling with your own inadequacies is difficult, I understand. While I generally think it's kind of sad for someone to reach into the beyond and bring in outside matters to try and make a petty swipe, I don't hold it against you. After all, what else do you have left? Another ODN post maybe? Chat about your 20 member fan club? Perhaps you can talk about how you were in Vox a few years ago for the nine hundredth time? Beyond that, welp, you've just kind of hit bottom. I'm not heartless, so while its been fun watching you plummet this past year or so, now that the impact has happened I can't help but empathize. So yea, while trying to go for ooc things is frowned upon, even when you miss as badly as you did here, we can let this one slide.

And sweetheart, since you're apparently so interested, it's 2l, tier one, actually. I apologize if that breaks any of your misconceptions. Please don't be too upset.

Also, spell check obsession is for secretaries. Look into it at your local CC if that kind of thing interests you.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[2burnt2eat]

Oh snap. Schattenmann touched a nerve.