Krzyzewskiville

Amen.

Being Emperor does not require the same skills as being able to serve as a forum/server admin and most alliances do not have their sole leader have control of the forum or server. You're minimizing that element of this to such a degree that it destroys all credibility you may think you had in this thread.

The lack of physical control is crucial. They could have removed Moo without his consent, so him saying his removal was okay came under duress. There is an idea in the law that acts done under duress are voidable. How is this any different?

Yeah, but it's way more convenient for Tywin to twist reality to serve his points.

The problem is that in your perspective as an outsider, you're ignoring those who matter the most in your discussion of Francoism and autocratic democracy in the New Pacific Order during the event - those who were members of the alliance at the time.

As I said, with Ivan's secret police and the internal culture, nothing but support would be acceptable from Pacificans. You cannot judge based on public perception, you had to be there. As far as Polar is concerned... they were not Pacificans who were governed by "autocratic democracy" (i.e., vote with your feet). They were outsiders and you should not lump them in. If you ask any IO at the time, they were in the same boat as the members - having to publicly express support lest they end up on a PZI or EZI list. They took days because it took days for them to organize a response. [OOC]And, you know, be able to get the server back from the Polar government member.[/OOC] Al Kassad was one member, not the voice of the damn Body Republic, and you need to stop holding him up as the one and only voice of reason at the time. You know how I know what he said isn't the word of god? Because I was there. I was a relatively new Pt the time. shut our mouths up about how uncomfortable it was out of fear and then hailed the living shit out of Moo returning to power back out of relief that we wouldn't have to endure it. That's your perspective, but again, not the only one. The vast majority of Pacificans and IOs viewed Moo's resignation as one which came under duress, which made it unlawful. Knowing what I know about it and having spoken to many of the players at the time (although not Moo) about it, that's clearly the dominant view. Your entire premise of the article is wrong because your premise is that Ivan was the lawful Emperor. To the majority of Pacificans at the time, he was not - he came into power under duress and was removed as soon as practicable.

You grossly misunderstand how the Moldavi Rebellion was viewed and how "Autocratic Democracy" supported not Ivan's claim, but Moo's. While some members departed after Moo took back the throne, there were many others on the verge of departure when Ivan took over. The uneasiness of many, indeed, the majority of members with the sudden coup was kept quiet and were afraid to speak their mind because at the time, Ivan had his secret though police running around and acting like Big Brother. Ivan was someone who was feared and disliked by many members, whereas Moo, still early in his reign, was well-liked and respected. The idea of autocratic democracy is that members can vote with their feet. It is thus telling that just about every IO helped Moo take back the throne that was rightly his, it is telling that Moo's return to power was applauded by most members and very, very few members actually departed angry that Ivan was forced out. I'm not sure how you think that Moo taking back the throne was in any way inconsistent with Francoism when you were not a member of the alliance at the time and you did not understand how people felt about the event. [OOC] All of which is to say nothing of how OOC elements were used/abused to support Ivan's claim. The Polar member who supported Ivan owned the domain name and was the forum admin, and threatened to take over with that - indeed, to get Moo back in power, the IOS had to transfer the forum info and forcefully get control back. In addition, there are stories about how they used their knowledge of Moo's sicknesses to get him to step down, using OOC stuff as a weapon. Basically, it was a total mess of which you know little, if anything at all, because you were not there.

Great looking gov. Although I believe DDL over you, berbers. More importantly: Congrats on 8 years! o/

Please stop using "Francoism" for your benefit. It's pathetic and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what Francoism is.

Me too. I'm glad that we as a community have found that there are things we view as unacceptable, as fleeting as they may be, and completely opposed to maintaining a strong, healthy community.

Pacifica does not ordinarily condone PZI or EZI - it is a great punishment that should not be done except in incredibly rare circumstances. It is often a punishment that does not befit the "crime" that is associated with it. That's to say nothing of the fact that Planet Bob has found those punishments to be anathema to the vast majority Planet Bob. However, this is one of the rare cases where the punishment would seem to befit the numerous, recurring offenses. At some point, we as a community have to begin to police ourselves and hold people to a minimal standard of conduct. If there is a community consensus about this, I'm certainly not going to stand in the way of it.

This feels like too little, too late, given that you only did it after basically being shamed by the entirety of the CN community. You crossed a line that pretty much everyone in the game viewed as unacceptable. That takes something truly special - and not in a good way.

So, #prayfortywin

Congratulations!

o/ Atlas o/ Pacifica I'm very excited we were finally able to sign this with such a great alliance.

This sucks. We're gonna miss you around CN, Yev. Or at least I know I certainly will.

I think this might be the wisest thing anyone has posted in this thread.

I am not a fan of them. I understand why Admin did them - the largest nations are the most consistent donors to the game, and giving them more to work with helps his bottom line. However, I question how good it really is for game health. Already we see in wars that smaller/newer nations get beaten to a pulp when larger nations with lots of wonders/improvements are WRC nuked down to their level. By giving those nations an even greater advantage, this will only make it harder to close the gap. I am glad that there is no economic effect, that might be worse, but I can't help but shake the feeling that this is one step forward and two steps back.

Congrats to everyone elected and to Sir Humphrey, enjoy retirement. It's nice that way.

I really didn't want to jump in here because this thread should be about congratulating COMECON and TPF, and not become another thread about NPO. So first: Congrats, TPF and COMECON. Hopefully TPF can have a good influence on COMECON here. Now, to address the NPO-related point: What happened during the war is between NPO and TPF. We had no issues with them leaving when they did - they had to do what they felt was best for them at that point, and they took the deal they had. TPF has been one of our most steadfast and loyal allies for years and that has not changed. TPF had to look out for their ally, STA, as well as themselves. We hold no ill will towards them for what they did, as we said at the time and we continue to say now.

Those two sentences were entirely unrelated. This feels like FAN chose an alliance randomly to hit, which is exactly what Kaskus did months ago. So it feels so cliched. EDIT: And my memory sucks. As you just corrected me, that never came to fruition.

I'm glad to see both of our governments agree on this point. I really don't know what to think of this whole thing. Feels like something Kaskus would dodid, not FAN. Definitely loses points for originality.

Congratulations, y'all. Good lineup over there.

The fact that you're trying to downplay the purpose behind this thread tells me that we've already done plenty of good. But just to throw you a bone, here's one of the many reasons for doing this: you and your coalition insists that Pacifica is forcing her allies to remain at war. In fact, you continue to do so in this very thread. We wanted to make clear, for the sake of our allies, that it's untrue.

Just because you keep saying it and thinking it, well, that won't make it come true.