Lincongrad

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320480876' post='2839493']The way I look at it, Legion will take a NS hit, but NSO will literally have almost [i]nothing [/i]left if they don't give in. [/quote] This is already, or was about to be, the case. We had it covered. So NSO lose very little. If Seerow is serious, and Legion and NSO will both be attacked even if NSO refuses white peace, I'm puzzled as to what leverage VE/MK intend to use on NSO. EDIT: Clarity

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1320452295' post='2839000'] Can you think of a way to make it more fair? That's what it really boils down to. [/quote] Slightly more fair would be that you demand that we (Legion) offer NSO white peace. It would still be pro-NSO, but it at least wouldn't let them stall talks to get us rolled.

[quote name='Facade' timestamp='1320441679' post='2838778'] then that doesn't make any sense either. You had the power to end this when it first started, when you could have defended your own ally. While NSO is martyring themselves in the name of self-righteousness, it doesn't change that your !@#$%*ing at NSO is misplaced. If you're so unhappy that Legion is still at war with your ally, then why didn't you defend them in the first place? [/quote] They believe that while Tetris was initially in the wrong, they have been punished more than enough. Most Legionnaires agree. Not commenting on the rest of the arguments.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320427246' post='2838466'] How's this for a justifiable rationale then: Both alliances are keeping our ODP partner at war past the point of punishment that the original crime deserved, and they are doing so for ridiculous reasons. Therefore, we think it's time to end it. Now. [/quote] My initial reaction was outrage, but this post actually makes me feel a lot better about the whole thing. Admin knows Tetris have more than made up for their part in this war.

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320167905' post='2836522'] Thank you kindly for the offer. But why must Tetris suffer over your petty grudge towards us? You know, the one that you all used Tetris as a stepping stone to act upon, when months ago you lacked the nerve to do so? Let them have white peace, and Legion can have it's war to (attempt to) grind us into nonexistence. [/quote] As far as I know, Tetris is welcome to exit the conflict at any time with a simple admission of defeat. Same as you. There is no need for them to suffer. Admittedly I'm not gov, though.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320114310' post='2836137'] First off, whether or not NSO's taunting of Legion is distasteful or not, it is not part of the point I was making. Somewhere early on, some poorly informed idiot posted that NSO bragged for months that they could beat Legion 1v1. Then mouth breather after mouth breather followed and trumpeted it. It was cried long and loud, all throughout this thread. If NSO had indeed done that, I am a pragmatic person, I would be the 1st to tell them , you made this bed, now lie in it. So, I went and checked. And I checked. And I checked some more. And I found, the whole rallying cry, the entire premise(for many) that NSO should not now make use of allies, was a complete and total fabrication. So, I put the info out there. If NSO taunts from May-September were so distasteful, then Legion should have acted on them, instead of ignoring them. That they set their precedent of cowering in peace mode during a war, and then cowering in peace time from obvious acts of war, both through nation-nation acts(spy ops) and forum-forum(SS's etc), nets them a grand total of ZERO sympathy from me for their plight. They made it themselves. They have been finely crafting this masterpiece for the better part of 3 years. However, like I said before, if we want to now use wars as a means to punish alliances for what has already happened, that went unpunished at the time, I will LOVE this new world, cuz I have SEVERAL alliances that I would like to enact this bold new precedent on. [/quote] I'd like to see what Pez was talking about. NSO with Tetris and NSO without Tetris isn't exactly a big difference, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

EDIT: Ugh, more multiple posts.

EDIT: Wow, internet. So many multiple posts.

Let me start this by saying that I acknowledge the issues of our weak geopolitical position. It's an issue, and one which we should not discount. The question is whether we should let our geopolitical position affect our belief in what is right and what is deserved. That said, I'd like to address this section of your post a little bit. [quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1320075894' post='2835695']Many of their responses in this thread [snip] - those about NSO being incompetent, needing to disband, etc - are interesting given that they've also been levied against The Legion through the years. Given this historical context, in addition to The Legion's aforementioned weak geopolitical position, I feel very justified when I say I perceive hubris. [/quote] You say that we're exhibiting hubris. I say that some of our people believe in fighting fire with fire. NSO has, frankly, treated us extremely poorly (Tetris has been exceedingly courteous throughout the war, which is great). Many of our members are extremely ticked off. One of the things that has kept us going in this war is simply pent up rage. NSO has been a big one for tossing all

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1320011049' post='2835218'] [color="#0000FF"]You are not true until proven false, but you would realize this if you had a brain that this idea of "surrender" did not occur to you until the Polar infidels planted the suggestions in your mind. You should thank us for the service we are providing you. With your complete destruction will also come your liberation. The purple colony will finally know freedom.[/color] [/quote] I don't really talk to NpO, actually. And I was one of the first to suggest it. I honestly can't tell if you're serious here at all.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1320008004' post='2835194'] [color="#0000FF"]From the start of this conflict the Legion, the purple wing of the New Polar Order, has been pushing Polaris's anti-NSO agenda in the peace talks. Talks which the NSO has no interest in. The war is far from over, and will not end until I feel Legion has been adequately destroy. Nonetheless Legion continues to push Polar's "surrender" agenda. The New Polar Order fails to realize that it is in no position to demand anything of us, and is on thin ice. Pun intended. Ha ha.[/color] [/quote] Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think this answers my question. As one of the people heavily pushing for an NSO surrender with no reps within the Legion, I'm puzzled as to how you get that Polaris is the one telling us what to do.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1320007614' post='2835189'] [color="#0000FF"]Prove to me that Legion is anything but an extension of the New Polar Order. When you can do that for me I will accept that Legion is a sovereign entity. Until such a time, however, whatever claims of "sovereignty" Legion has will remain in question.[/color] [/quote] I was really really trying not to get involved in this thread. Really really. But seriously, what makes you believe that? To SirWilliam: Maybe not hot. Hott[b]er[/b] would be more correct, I think.

Thanks for splitting the thread. That could have gotten way out of hand.

[quote name='cybersaur' timestamp='1319079860' post='2828985'] I just thought I would suggest adding some stats for NSO and Tetris to point to and be proud of. We won't be long for this war at all if they keep sending 50 bombers at a time into our air defenses! I'd say their bombers outnumber ours by roughly 45:1. Just trying to be nice and helpful... [/quote] Cool it, guys.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1318582406' post='2824748'] Just for the record when this started ala Legion vs Tetris, it was damn near 5:1, then 3:1 and finally almost 1:1. While it is no longer that number, it wasn't just pulled out of the air. Fair is fair after all. [/quote] I was actually referring to the opposite: the number of alliances arrayed against Legion. Your point is also a very valid one, however.

1) Why do I feel like North (or South) Vietnam, or possibly Afghanistan circa 1980? Odd, I'm sure the feeling will pass. 2) Below is a great post. Everyone, Legionnaires, Sith, and bystanders, would do well to take heed. Obviously, Legion has its problem children. Any alliance attempting general recruiting will have similar problems. Thus we welcome wars which cut the dead weight. Nothing like a little spring (winter, i guess) cleaning. Similarly, the Sith welcome war for several reasons, including a) a chance to settle their (perceived... not getting into this atm) score from the past war, b) a chance to hone their skills and c) fun. So really, everyone profits. And since we're likely to be on opposite sides in the next big ones, we're not even changing the geopolitical landscape! It's perfect! [quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1318563699' post='2824554'] [color="#0000FF"]NSO does have war chests, as do the competent members of Legion that I have encountered. They are about par. Yes, Legion has quite a bit of unprepared dead weight, but they're not the ones hassling NSO or doing anything at all. They'll surrender soon enough and Legion will left with its leaner meat. I won't lie and say NSO doesn't have members who won't save up either, as we do, but they are quite few. So let us stop with the "lol war chests" nonsense. Neither side is Umbrella, especially as both NSO and Legion have a history of losing wars (badly). But yes, this is a war of attrition. All the statistics you fellows happily toss about, irrelevant considering how equal things are (even the outside aid, which is a whooping twelve slots from RoK - its value is more from dicking waving than any actual tangible effect it'll make on the war).[/color] [/quote] One more thing: I really wish people would stop using the 5v1 line. It does not give an accurate portrayal of the situation. It's good for some mild propaganda, nothing else. There are much better arguments to make, such as the Tetris side having the NS advantage or the way that their alliances entered, or the Legion upper tier advantage if you want to argue it the other way. CHOOSE BETTER ARGUMENTS TO HAVE, PEOPLE. Also, thanks Polar.

[quote name='USMC123' timestamp='1317706390' post='2815789'] I just wanted to throw this out there because I didn't make this clear earlier: Legion, I am extremely happy you declared on us for two reasons. One of these reasons is because I love war, and even if it means getting getting nuked back down to 10K NS again, I am all for it. Do note this doesn't mean I want to see you guys get destroyed completely, which kind of leads into my second reason. Legion, I am glad you stood up for yourselves, truly. People are constantly giving you !@#$ about being a paper tiger, sucking at war, having no balls, et cetera, and I am glad you guys got fed up with it. I have respect for that. Never thought I'd say it, but +1 Legion. Serious post. [/quote] If this is the way Tetris continues to conduct itself, I forsee a civil and beneficial conflict for all. Cheers.

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1297055231' post='2623334'] I am obnoxious? My life goals are complete and I can retire now. The fact remains that you did try to disband and fail. That doesn't negate anything that I said. And is base on facts. Offensive? Sure maybe it can damage ones pride. I can accept that. But not ignorant, given that it is based in fact. [/quote] A portion of the government failed at their goal of successfully disbanding the Legion. The rest of us had no such goal and thus did not fail. The disbanders were not representative of the Legion as a whole, thus your statement is false. Which also happens to be why it was offensive: you're implying that I wanted the alliance to disband.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1297040804' post='2622938'] During Purplegate, the Legion's government posted an order to disband the Legion. This was a decision supported by the bulk of the Legion's government at the time. The Legion's membership, and a small part of the government, disagreed with the decision. They formed an interim government which contacted NPO and Valhalla and negotiated a surrender to avoid a war, and that's when the viceroy was installed. [/quote] Speaking as the only member of that 'small part of the government' left in the Legion today... sup? Airme, you're obnoxious. Geoffron X, you need to read up on your history. We bloody well pulled ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Saying that Pacifica 'saved' us is about as offensive and ignorant as what Airme said. [quote name='Barnaby von Farter' timestamp='1297049021' post='2623082'] The Legion's sphere of influence endorses viceroyships. Thanks for giving the CnG Union yet another thing to fight for/against. [/quote] The basic laws of the universe, as well as common moral decency, prevent viceroyships. No other alliance speaks for Legion.

[quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1297022156' post='2622506'] As to why Legion did not activate with Polar that...[/quote] This has been brought up a few times. While not in Legion or Polaris gov, I'm pretty sure our Imperator was talking with Polaris almost constantly, and from what I hear us holding off on entering was based on a mutual agreement of both alliances. Strategy, politics, idiocy, call it what you will; before passing judgement, I would advise people to wait and see if interactions between Legion and Polaris continue to be friendly. That will most likely be the best indicator of Polaris's views on the delayed entry.

If GATO's allies wanted them out, then they should go ahead and hop out. As they did. Although I find the argument that GATO would do nothing by staying in the war slightly odd: if nothing else, they'll be absorbing nukes.

That's harsh, broski.

[quote name='Matthew The Great' timestamp='1296180126' post='2606482'] News Flash: No thread with Legion in it will remain civil [/quote] Clearly, but I can live in hope.

[quote name='Toraoji' timestamp='1296169168' post='2606229'] well, this is about a week later than it should have happened. at least you're finally involved. [/quote] Agreed. Conforming to a coalition's schedule is annoying.

[quote name='Carrick' timestamp='1296163438' post='2606099'] Yeah Legion is the last alliance that should mock others for puny warchests, especially after Lord Zarcaine's one got posted. [/quote] There are ridiculously poor warchests in both GOONS and Legion. Take a look at who's pointing fingers more. Like I said, I'm trying to keep this somewhat civil.