Lincongrad

When was the last time you saw an announcement remotely like this from a Legionnaire? I say again, we've tried saying out of the spotlight. Virtually every time we've fought, since GWIII, we've got people grudgingly admitting that we don't deserve the Paper Tiger label. Our low ANS, low Total strength, etc, are a reflection of how many wars we've been in, mostly on the losing side. Now of course this doesn't mean we're not actively working to improve, but it also doesn't mean we're the same alliance that we were in GWIII. Copy+paste some of em.

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1284341816' post='2451840'] Careful about that statement, I am sure plenty of people would reply they'd rather you disbanded instead of accepting the viceroyship [/quote] Very true. And those people, frankly, can shove it. I like the Legion community far too much.

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1284340918' post='2451827'] To intercede, no one has ever said this. I'm not sure where you even came up with this but no one has said you guys can even kinda fight. jooshwhatever is unironically showing why people think you suck. Stop doing dumb threads and moves, keeping yourselves out of the public spotlight, and working on improving internal matters would be the way to go. Trying to mock your mockers and then having it blow up in your face is not the course I would have taken. [/quote] What makes you say we can't fight? We've done, if not the best, certainly decently in the last few wars. I'm also curious to know which aspect of not being able to fight you're claiming: our NS? Our ANS? Our nukes? Our staying power? Our knowledge of game mechanics? We tried staying out of the spotlight: it pretty clearly doesn't work. We're trying a new approach where we're going to attempt to have at least some communication, however negative, with our detractors. I, personally, cared deeply about the WAE contest. It was shocking to me how undereducated regarding the Legion's past and present most people are, although of course the result was somewhat expected due to the side of the web we fall on. In a contest as predictable as the WAE contest, how could we help but do a little giggling? So, here it is. Feel free to ask anything you want about the Legion, or inform us why we suck. We'll do our best to refute your points, agree with them, or agree to disagree. You'll probably get several varied answers and opinions on each question, but that's in the nature of the alliance.

I'm a little late to the party, I know. Sorry, I've been [OOC]camping[/OOC]. I'd like to address the Pez parts of this argument, as pointless as I think they are. As the only current member of the Legion who was in government during the disbandment, I think I am pretty qualified to make a statement about Pez. Pezstar was a pretty damn good Foreign Minister. She screwed up in the disbandment. Now, where myself and several of the posters in this thread disagree (Note I did not say Legionnaires, since they are by no means all Legionnaires) is on whether Pez is, in general, a bad leader. I think she's excellent. I have nothing but the utmost respect for STA and their foreign policy of late, and I know she is a big factor in that. I think many Legionnaires and others make judgments on Pez and her leadership based off one incident, and then assume that anything remotely bad that they hear about her should be interpreted in an extremely negative way. The same way, in fact, that people judge the Legion. In this, I think I have failed in my duties to educate Legionnaires as to the events leading up to and surrounding Purplegate. The disbandment was simply one wrong decision taken under intense pressure. It should not reflect on Pez's actions in general. <3 Lincongrad

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='19 July 2010 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1279578332' post='2379400'] I can see the angle you're coming from there, you were more with the NpO than NPO in that case, but the reality still stands that you were on the same overall side as the NPO, nonwithstanding the subsequent quarrel of Valhallan peace terms. You didn't decide to side with the UJP alliances and try to even the score against the WUT after the crushing GWIII loss, instead you rode to war under the greater WUT banner, rightly so since \m/ attacked ODN in that case. [/quote] If I remember correctly (and I'm quite possibly not), NPO attacked one alliance in that war, and that alliance was fighting on the same side as Legion. NPO was certainly not leading the WUT assault. EDIT: Just looked it up, I was remembering wrong. NPO ended up fighting several relatively small alliances on the UjP side. However I would argue that WUT as a political entente was split and that we were led into battle primarily by BLEU. Keep in mind, NPO did not join the war until significantly after the battle had started, and that both sides had alliances which we had fought against in GWIII.

Good post, but one complaint: [quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='19 July 2010 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1279558475' post='2378967'] To use a Aegis/League example again, you saw ODN and Legion and GATO forming up a large part of the core opposition to WUT, the 2006/2007 equivalent to SuperGrievances, and then just months later in the UJW, you had ODN, Legion, and GATO all fighting on the side of the NPO. [/quote] If I remember correctly, Legion at least fought Valhalla and \m/ in support of NpO, in almost direct opposition to NPO. In fact, the only reason that Valhalla got a white peace (as opposed to either continuing the war or paying up... not gonna start a debate there) was that NPO threatened to rearrange our faces if we didn't let Valhalla off and we believed we couldn't count on the support of the coalition we went into battle with, so we backed down. Basically, we were most definitely not fighting for NPO there. Just a little thing that's been bugging me.

Alright, Buds, i'll try and catch you online at some point although I'm [ooc] on my phone ATM and HHS unable to get on IRC[/ooc]

Ashoka, we will of course defend our allies, however we viewed certain aspects of the MDOAP as untenable, and believed we had valid reason to cancel. These reasons have, I believe, been communicated. We are cancelling during peace time after fighting two losing wars. This cancellation does not make us cowards.

Our reasons in full I believe were communicated in private. Karma and Karma 2.0 were not the only reasons for the cancellation or, as you say, we would likely be cancelling on NPO too. If reasons were not adaquately communicated, feel free to hit me up on IRC or send me a PM and I'll happily clear up what I can.

Alterego, we've just been through two wars that we disagreed with recently to honor our treaties. A tough time doesn't scare us, the thought of being dragged into a war for bad reasons scares us. We like fighting for reasons we deem worthy, not to back up mistakes.

[quote name='DictatatorDan' date='12 July 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1278999714' post='2369061'] [color="#FF0000"]Ahhh, The Legion, one of the many alliances that has marched right into a sanction all the while doing nothing noticable besides drag all of their dirty laundry right out for the world to see. Watching Legion lol-itics is like watching a jet liner crash into a circus...painfully funny. Top Ten Reasons Legion Sucks 1.The Arbiter (Seriously, has there ever been a Whining Legion Thread that did not involve him in some way) 2.It's leaders can't get beyond their own egos. 3.Punishing your lifeblood membership for anything is stupid. 4.The Color Purple 5.Trying to imitate the NPO model and failing miserably 6.Everytime you try to handle an internal problem, you just piss more people off. 7.Airing your dirty laundry for everyone to see, although it is hillarious is in poor form. 8.Legions econ programs suck. Legions Military sucks. Obviously someone is not doing their job, or isn't smart enough to do it. 9.Legion is nothing more than NPO's !@#$%* and has been for a long time. 10.In the last war, Legion surrendered and then unsurrendered and then resurrendered because of stupid charter technicalities.[/color] [/quote] I'm glad you know us so well and have done all your research. It's nice to see an educated opinion with plenty of backup in this thread. /me goes back to letting the thread die.

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='08 July 2010 - 07:31 AM' timestamp='1278599498' post='2363423'] Awww. People didn't like me because I tarnished what's left of their precious little image, which these days isn't much. We all seem to have different ideas of what it means to defend an alliance, and to boast a sanction. W/e that much is clear. As far as the last sentence... WE? Who is we? Not you, non-government member. The only person who decided to enforce a rule for once in 3 years was the Arbiter. Get it right now, I don't shut up. I don't give a crap what Arbiter said, what he wanted or the like. His opinion matters least to me. I'd ask Satan what he thought about something before I'd ask the Arbiter. He's a meaningless smashed tin can on the side of the highway to me. If I ever heard his name or had to talk to him again, it would be far too soon. [/quote] It wasn't just Arbiter who enforced the rule. It was the government as a whole.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 July 2010 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1278560927' post='2363100'] [color="#0000FF"]No, Falcon was gagged because he was a rival to you. He was not in your clique, so you went out of your way to make it clear he was not wanted. The gag order would not have been the end of it. More rules, more punishments. As I said, I know how this is played. As for your title, that is irrelevant. You hold sway over the MoD and the Imperator. Possibly a few others. That is all you need in order to be king from the shadows.[/color] [/quote] I supported that gag order. So did the government. Have you read that thread? It was pretty out of hand. Mmmm no. They agreed with him in this case. They disagree with him plenty (although Feibs and Arb tend to agree a lot). EDIT: After a bit of though, the idea of Arb being king from the shadows is absolutely hilarious. There are several others who have so much more influence (no offense, arb =P).

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 July 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1278560131' post='2363088'] [color="#0000FF"]If Arbiter is running the show over at Legion it does not matter if you all agreed, as he prompted you to agree. Secondly, you say Falcon was issued a gag order. Any reason why he was specifically targeted? And Arbiter, considering Legion is supposedly democratic, I would figure membership rights are important. Guess not. As for me being a mindless critic, I am not. I am more of less on your side of the web, unfortunately. However, despite that, I will still call out incompetence when I see it, and I am seeing quite a bit of it right now.[/color] [/quote] If you think Arbiter is running the show over here that's pretty friggin hilarious. He's not. Falcon was targeted for the gag order because his comments were viewed as the least productive in the 'Congrats Legion' thread. Membership rights are important. Falcon was not forced out of the alliance, and he also had the option to bring the fine to trial.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 July 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1278559456' post='2363075'] In every government there is always a supreme ruler, uncontested in his wisdom, a few high ranking yes-men (whom the other yes-men say yes to), and then your average yes-man. Which one of these are you? And don't think you can fool me. I know who's running the show over at Legion, and it certainly isn't you. [/quote] First of all, this has no bearing on the validity of this argument. Second of all, I have zero respect for Arbiter's interpersonal skills and, when I was MoD, spent a lot of time jumping down his throat. Third, I have never claimed to run the show over at Legion, but I would like to think I do a little thinking of my own as opposed to simply being a yes-man. In other words, please avoid pointless personal attacks when you have no idea what you're talking about. Thank you. [quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 July 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1278559456' post='2363075'] Also, a gag order? I've seen how well those work in the past. Not only does it peeve the members, it also allows your critics to rail at you unchallenged. Whatever they say becomes truth, in time, as there is no counter-argument. Why do you think Vox was so effective? Sure the anti-NPO sentiment that had brooded over the years helped, but NPO simply saying nothing to oppose Vox also helped. How incompetent is Legion's government to realize it is making ineffective policy? If anything Falcon should have been commended for standing up against the blatant idiocy of his government, which clearly is not fit to govern. [/quote] I happen to agree with you when it comes to complete gag orders, but it was a gag order directed specifically at him, not a complete gag order. We viewed his personal comments as disrespectful/counterproductive, and wanted to leave the smack talking to people who we viewed as better at it.

Apologies, Double post.

[quote name='SiCkO' date='07 July 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1278558969' post='2363063'] i didnt do it again for a couple months [/quote] The difference between you and lmc is that you at least pretended to be contrite and they knew you were willing to stop and figured you had just misread the announcement or something. Granted, I wasn't there for KW and Imperial's conversation, but that's what it seems like to me. [quote name='Jacapo Saladin' date='07 July 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1278559124' post='2363067'] I wouldn't quite call turtling to be fighting. 14 nukes huh? Arbiter = 62,750 Attacking + 433,825 Defending = 496,575 Casualties So did you ever rebuy or just sit there and take the nukes? [/quote] Are we really trying to bring up people's casualty counts? Maybe we could focus on the topic a little instead of you two's personal beef, hm?

[quote name='SiCkO' date='07 July 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1278558754' post='2363057'] Linco i remember as a young legionnaire getting pulled aside by KW and imperial for violating a gag. They yelled at me for a bit, then hugged me and sent me on my way. [/quote] You agreed to stop, no? And not do it again?

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 July 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1278558308' post='2363046'] No, you're playing internal politics. You are finding any excuse you can use to get a rival out of an alliance. I know. I used to be in the NPO in late 2007. Internal politics were the worst at that point, and got even worse. I don't know if it is still that way, and nor do I care, as I've long been divorced from them. But my point is, I know the rules, and I know what you're playing here. [/quote] If I remember correctly the government as a whole decided to impose the punishment on lmcfalcon, not just Arbiter. Other members in the government know Arb's history, and take that into account when taking recommendations from him, and yet still decided on this punishment. To my knowledge we've never had someone violate a BB gag before, because everyone else has realized it's a bad idea, or complained about the gag on our forums (sometimes successfully). When lmc disobeyed the gag gov as a whole put together what they thought was a fitting punishment. It was by no means Arbiter acting alone.

The way I see it, alliances are like corporations. Lmc was an employee of the Legion, badmouthed some other corps, so we told him to stop. He refused to stop, so we gave him a choice between a fine or having him resign. He chose to resign. Freedom of speech isn't violated since we're not pursuing him. He obviously decided that we weren't right for him, I'm simply annoyed that he blew this up so much when really it just comes down to us telling him to stop responding in a thread where we thought he was making us look bad, him refusing, and us imposing a penalty of a bunch of low-price tech deals or leaving the alliance. I really hate using metaphors as examples, because they never translate well, but the corporation thing is pretty much how I think about alliances.

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='29 June 2010 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1277866325' post='2354765'] "up until the NoCB war." [/quote] I was speaking of the 1.6 billion or so we paid after Purplegate. Or was that topped too? (Like I said, I'm a bit fuzzy on other alliance's reps numbers).

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='29 June 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1277862219' post='2354675'] Yeah, you do know what fighting NPO is like. You were their MDP ally and backstabbed them opportunistically in the middle of GWI. I was there. Good work. After noCB we paid 82k and $200m in reps. I'd love to see Legion fumble over trying to pay even that. [/quote] Your claim that MK are the only ones who can complain about anything is still ridiculous. Up until Purplegate, Legion were the main target of NPO's ire, and paid what I believe was the largest quantity of reps up until the NoCB war. My point is that other alliances have had hard pasts, too, and to blindly claim otherwise is to remain wilfully ignorant.

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='29 June 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1277861753' post='2354658'] Fighting? You fought for like a week and then surrendered. We fought TOP for 3 months straight. It's a BIT different, even if we won. Our losses were huge, as anyone can tell you, and neither Karma nor the TOP-CnG War altered your standing right below the sanctioned alliances. You can hardly be said to have even fought in either. [/quote] Right, it didn't alter our standing because everyone decreased together, and then increased together. In other words, our rebuilding speed is similar to that of many of the alliances around us (although as you have stated MK does grow faster). [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='29 June 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1277861753' post='2354658'] Us growing even slightly faster than you is quite embarrassing because you're twice our size, and your tiny nations (heh, you might even say you have legions of them!!) grow much faster than our big ones. It's simple game mechanics. [/quote] MK grows fast, but we grow at a similar speed to many of the other alliances at our level. If it's embarrassing to us, it's embarrassing to them too. [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='29 June 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1277861753' post='2354658'] Oh, and I'm sorry about the viceroy you willingly accepted instead of fighting. You even tried to disband instead! Obviously, your alliance mattered that much. And even more hilariously, you then proceeded to sign MDoAPs with NPO and Valhalla. Some !@#$@#$ spine you have. [/quote] And you think it was easy coming back from the brink? Regardless of our politics, rebuilding a morally and physically (pixelly) shattered alliance is no easy task. [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='29 June 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1277861753' post='2354658'] Your reps were miniscule compared to what we paid after noCB (a war our allies did not start, even!), even in raw terms and not scaled up for your alliance's size. 40k is a pittance, much less than you deserved. This all took place after a year-long diplomatic blacklist and weekly threats from NPO and friends to attack us. Before [i]that[/i] came the Unjust War, which we also lost and had to pay reps because of. To add to this, you would have received white peace had you not had such incredible egos. In both wars, we had to fight to even get harsh reparations. In noCB we wouldn't have had terms at all if it wasn't for the work of Gre and MHA. I really wish you could have had the time we did. Stop !@#$@#$ whining. [/quote] What were your reps after NoCB, exactly? And if you remember, we do know what fighting NPO is like.

[quote name='Banksy' date='29 June 2010 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1277861500' post='2354649'] Then perhaps you could explain how that has anything to do with rebuilding the alliance.... Saw your edit: Did Legion really survive the viceroy? [/quote] Our politics changed! Oh god, how horrible! I've been in the Legion since the end of GWI. We survived the viceroyship, thank you very much. No alliance needs must remain constant to preserve its identity.

[quote name='Banksy' date='29 June 2010 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1277861015' post='2354635'] I remember legion losing 20% of its NS, while MK lost 56%. But sure. And aren't you paying off reps with your small nations? Should affect your alliance's NS. [/quote] You're right, of course. I was speaking of more of a general trend in response to the 'sitting under the sanction line forever'. If we had sat out of almost any one of the past several wars we would have attained sanction, but we didn't and so got passed by alliances who did. We haven't really gone down spots from the beginning of a war to the end of rebuilding, but the alliances above us have changed. In essence, our rebuilding is good enough to allow us to hold our place comparatively to other alliances, meaning that our rebuilding is at least average. EDIT: [quote name='Banksy' date='29 June 2010 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1277861015' post='2354635'] Oh, they didn't have one. [/quote] My point. Viceroyships are by no means an easy thing to survive, meaning that his cry of 'But I'm MK, you can't say your life is hard' is invalid.