nc1701

Francesca, your points make sense on the surface but only because you misunderstand the nature of CN. Fact is all these words and terms you and so many others like to talk about, "Francoism", "Voxism", "Friends>Infra", "Honor", "Gatherism", "Tygaism", etc. are just labels and have absolutely zero meaning beyond what people give them. Yet here they are each given a streignth of their own and taken to be legitimate philosophies with great meanings. Francoism was really just something for NPO to use to claim moral superiority, what it actually said was and is irrelevant. It just allowed NPO to claim some guiding principles, and justify the way they played. Voxism is the same, Vopx Populi were smart revolutionaries and knew they couldn't win under the Polar banner, or through their fight. They had to invent an ideology they could claim, so Voxism was born, just like Francoism an ideology of convenience, something written purely to justify their actions and give them something to rally behind. Friends>Infra is the same thing, it's a truism of course after all everyone would fight for their true friends. But it was used to shame others into war, James Dahl is entirely correct on this account. No doubt I would go to ZI for my friends, and I don't need a stupid slogan to tell me to. Plenty of hegemony nations in NPO, TPF, and Echelon have gone to ZI fo their friends without a stupid slogan coined by their side. In this game there is one thing I truly hate, and that is alliances who think too much of themselves, and are so sure of their own rightness they can't see past their own navel. This applies solidly to both NPO and Vox Populi, inventing ideologies is a clear sign of megalomania, and does nothing but cloud this game further. So to correct this I have a proposal... The three tenets of "ncism". 1) Everything is a lie until proven otherwise, (yes that includes ncism). 2) Even when proven true it almost certainly meant to confuse you or lead you down a path where you are serving someone else. 3) Trust is a mistake, everyone has their own best interests at heart, not yours, so distrust them even when you do trust your friends completely they are usually under the sway of an untrustworthy third party.

What is your tech to infra ratio? Mine's relatively high 7,161.63/7,999.99 or, 0.895. I'm curious to see what the overall spread is for most nations though. Also where do you think is a good level? Obviously the more tech the better, but at some point it does become almost impossible to win ground attacks against enemies of a similar NS to you. To vote in the poll take your tech level, divide by your infra level and round to the nearest hundredth and vote for the option which applies to you.

As a general rule of thumb all the best channels have restricted access lists... I mean #mushroom is pretty hardcore, but MK's member's only chans put it to shame. Back when I was in MCXA I ran #MCXA-porn, but that channel was closed down when I left and nobody wanted to take over from me. As far as adult oriented channels, I'de say it definitely fit the bill though:) A few other semi-secret restricted access channels that I'm aware of are very free speech oriented, and I'm sure restricted channels are in general alot more open.

Indeed, I think most less active players don't realize just how important the forums and IRC can be until they fall victim to war or hate created on them. Very often disputes will be be started by things as minor as personality conflicts, that gradually escalate up into world conflicts. Thanks:) I try to only post when I have something of consequence to say, just upping post count really isn't worth anything, I've found I can keep up with the forum a lot better if I just skim over short spammy posts and am careful about picking threads that will provide some level of interest. Trying to read everything here would be a full time job, but as long as I keep up with important things I'm much better informed about what's going on. Oh it certainly keeps my interest perked as well, but really only for the multiplayer interacting with others politically aspect. I certainly would never play CN against computer opponents as that would get very boring very quickly, the people are what make this game interesting, not so much the actual game screen itself. Really I think both sides need to decide they want peace, currently we have a situation where both sides claim to want peace, but in reality seem much less eager for peace and certainly not eager to compromise. Relate it to the Israel Palestine situation, with Karma being Israel and NPO being Palestine. Both sides claim to want peace, but they have utterly different ideas on what a fair peace treaty would be. Peace will not come until it is in both sides best interests to be at peace on terms that both can agree too. Currently Karma is afraid of NPO post terms, this is why they are so stringent on the demand that NPO's top ranks come out of peace mode get knocked down and then make the large nations pay all the reps too. While this wouldn't completely cripple NPO as NPO claims, it would cripple their ability to effectively make war for a very long time (wars are typically decided by the top nations). NPO on the otherhand almost certainly does want to have a Karma war 2.0 where they retake their spot on top, so anything that seriously weakens their long term war capacity is obviously not something they will accept. Peace will come when NPO accepts that they will not be able to quickly return to power and accepts their complete defeat, and when Karma realizes that continuing the war is costing them more now (in terms of actual losses and political capital), than it gains them in long term security by further weakening NPO. NPO remains defiant, but appears to have agreed to pay very significant reparations according to the thread, Karma on the other hand has clearly accepted that NPO is no longer a huge threat and that peace is preferable to eternal war. I predict the actual terms to be somewhere in the middle, probably higher than the ones we have seen so far monetarily, but without some of the other conditions. But those won't happen until NPO swallows it's pride and Karma starts to feel heat from someone else and realizes that continued war with NPO is not advantageous for them. So there will be no peace for now, both sides feel they would be better off by settling for peace at some point in the future, obviously they cannot both be right. So at some point NPO will realize further war is hopeless and take Karma's offer. Or Karma will realize they are facing other greater threats and make peace so they can focus their attention elsewhere. Given the above their is very little members on either side can do to accelerate the peace process, really the only thing I can think of is being calm, polite, and respectful. When tempers are high it is much harder for a government negotiate a deal, especially if it's a potentially unpopular one.

Hey Walt Schmidt, I bet you don't remember me, but hey! (I tried to recruit you long ago:() I'm young still and haven't served in the military so I can't directly comment, but I will say that I do agree that people's real life knowledge and ethics, be they military or civilian, do follow them into the game and significantly effect how they see things. In my experiences, real life lawyers tend to enjoy lawyering their way through the game, creating complex arguments and writing walls of text. Real life soldiers often angle to the "shut up and play" mentality where they interact with others and enjoy building their nations, but dislike arguing on forums or debating internal politics etc. While of course the High school and college students often lean towards just screwing around on IRC, trolling, and writing our opinions about everything. Obviously those are massive generalizations, there are many exceptions, and the fact that soldiers tend to be older could be the difference as much as anything that came from the military. As for your direct questing regarding objective information, no there isn't and I don't think this game would be very fun if there was. Sure there is an objective truth, but it's deeply buried and completely irrelevant by now. Besides i doubt seeing a truly objective time line of events would matter to most people, does it really matter who attacked first or what their intentions were? What matters are those who felt they were wronged and vowed to wreak vengeance upon those who wronged them, when you are enemies like that who throws the first punch is meaningless. As for your view of the NPO, it's certainly a correct and valid one, but it can be valid while still leaving others valid reasons to dislike NPO. A lot of the people who dislike NPO today were in alliances defeated by NPO in the last several years, including alliances like GPA, FAN, GOLD, LUE, and others attacked long before you even joined the game. Just those 4 alliances probably account for 2,000 nations who feel NPO wronged them, many moved on or quit the game, but others vowed vengeance, or at least continued to harbor hatred and resentment. Then of course others were just jealous, after all everybody wants to be #1, NPO was in an unassailable position, demonizing them and building on the bad sentiments from those NPO previously defeated is a brilliant way of doing that isn't it? As for me personally, I just like to hate the number one guy and that was NPO for as long as I've been playing. (I think it may be genetic...Whenever I play Risk with my family we have a tendency to triple team whoever looks like their winning, makes the games last forever:(). Nothing personal, but I am aware NPO will come back for vengeance if allowed, that's why your getting such harsh terms, because people are still scared of you. CN's a harsh, harsh world. Obviously large scale alliance coordination is a very complex task, but the actual game mechanics are not very hard. I almost completely solved them last summer, with only a few minor changes or surprises since then. In terms of maximizing NS (or preferably military combat potential, at least that's what I'm aiming for), it's really just simple math sure it depends on what resources you have, but all that does is alter the math a little bit. War is of course a little harder to predict, but still it's really just a product of resources (wonders, tech, infra, military, and money), coordination (try update blitzing with two guys on IRC, it's a beautiful thing), and activity (If your on when your enemy attacks to rebuy troops, being on at update, etc.). Based on those three things it's easy to predict the outcome of a battle or war. Cybernations may be more complex than checkers, but it's certainly easier to play than chess is, yes there are a lot of variables, but that doesn't make CN terribly hard to play from an in game perspective.

tl;dr: Long rant about people who play CN, people in general, and interesting observations on the weakness of the human mind, probably very offensive to any RL humans. You were warned, now please do not ask for the last hour and a half of your life back. OOC Warning: While this forum is OOC I would still like to warn everyone that this thread is about the people behind the screens more than it is about anything in the game, and is written specifically by a person behind a screen, not necessarily by nc1701 or a member of the Mushroom Kingdom I think that covers everything.... I was just checking my nation the other day and I realized I've been playing this game for two years. Two years is a long time, yet it feels just like yesterday that I was being tech raided pre-Unjust war. In my real life I've gone from being very popular to widely hated, to just plain disappearing in this time, I've graduated and started college, all things that dragged on forever it seemed, yet CN flew by in an instant. Perhaps that just means I really enjoy CN, it really is a great escape into another world a game where everything is different isn't it? Perhaps... Whatever the reason I've seen a lot in two years, I've built up perceptions about both the game and the actual people, and I've watched as they got torn down, until I realized CN really is no different than real life. I was once a serious worker I played by the rules and worked my way up in the MCXA, I accepted the vital norms of the game and applied my own emotional attachments to in game issues. I accepted that loyalty to alliances was the only commendable action in this game, I argued that tech raiding was immoral and wrong, I talked about things I knew nothing about. I talked about "honor", and how we need to act "honorably", I stood stoically as my "honorable" friends lied to me and stabbed me in the back. When I had the chance I returned to the failing MCXA and stood as it collapsed due to a sense of duty, until a second batch of friends stabbed me ruthlessly in the back, but still I moved on and held my head high. CN was to be played with honor, honor is all we have in the end right? Hey I'm only human, my emotions are easily toyed with, so you can't really blame me for being that stupid. But I can see clearly now, perhaps that fancy college education is starting to pay off, maybe it all finally clicked because of CN, or maybe my cynical side was brought back because Relapse just came out and got me back into listening to all my old Eminem Records. But it readily became clear just how easily people are manipulated without even realizing it, I was called the "King of Spin" in the MCXA I've always known this, but I just finally saw how deep it goes. People are $% stupid, and yes that includes both you and me, and I'm not pretending to be a prophet. Sure we seem brilliant, don't you feel brilliant when your doing Calculus? That stuff is hard we must be smart... Of course we are, but we have emotions and those emotions toy with us and turn rational beings who can do Calculus into babbling idiots who follow buzzwords like "Honor", "Karma", "Loyalty", or "Ideals". So what is Honor? It's an ethical code everyone defines differently, in other words it means whatever they want it to mean. In CN honor has come to mean mercy and weakness, according to those who claim "honor" in CN it is dishonorable to finish off your enemies or saddle them with heavy terms, it is dishonorable to wage aggressive war, it is dishonorable to desire power. Read that carefully, read the many threads on terms in the Karma war if you don't believe me. In CN the term honor has been hijacked by peaceniks and honor has come to mean non-violence. WTF!? Honor is the code of the warrior, according to the Klingons honor came from dying in battle, how many enemies you killed, and how much you plundered, dishonor came from defeat, cowardice, and weakness. Samurai views on honor were more nuanced, but similar. CN "honor" is a myth and means nothing, it's just a great rallying cry for a few alliances who need a reason to feel better than everyone else, which come to think of it is exactly how it is used in real life isn't it? Honor means nothing, dishonor means nothing. But that doesn't stop our feeble human minds from jumping through flaming hoops in a futile attempt to get recognized as having "honor", which is just as transitory and worthless as any other convenient buzz word. I for one no longer want to be called honorable, it means nothing and is just another method of control, I would prefer to be mentally free. What is Karma? Karma is like honor, a word that has been hijacked, not just by CN but by the whole world to represent some type of cosmic "fairness doctrine", guess what? That doesn't exist, and it would be stupid for anyone to try to enforce one, this is just more propaganda more emotional weakness from us human beings. All Karma means is that if you do bad things then bad things will happen to you, but that isn't very fun. We learned that two wrongs don't make a right as little kids didn't we? At least I did... Of course they don't, once wrong is done it can never be right, justice is a convenient emotional fabrication. But what we can do is destroy stuff, that's fun and that's Karma. If Karma means "Bad things happen to bad people", then doesn't it follow that that waging eternal war and levying massive reps on those who did bad things in the past is perfectly reasonable? Humans are easily manipulated and emotions invoking anger and justice quickly fade, meaning our empathy and mercy emotions can then be played like marionette strings. But if we realize this we can correct it, but when the words don't change we are oblivious, and words like Karma are corrupted. What is Loyalty? This one's easy right? Loyalty is standing by your friends and your alliance. Well yes, and no... Loyalty is standing by people, people who would stand by you. Standing by people who wouldn't stand by you isn't loyalty, it's stupidity I've done that in both RL and CN though. I'm sure most of us have, because loyalty to others has been hoisted up and made into a good trait. Loyalty to groups is even worse,be it patriotism in real life or to your CN alliance it means nothing, an alliance is just a group of individuals and holding greater loyalty to the whole than to its parts makes no sense at all. Would you die for your neighbor? If not why the hell should you die for your country? If your alliance mate was alone and under attack would you go and fight beside them by yourself? If not why would you defend your alliance as a whole? Loyalty is popularized because alliances need it to survive, but blind loyalty is just allowing your emotions to be hijacked, only loyalty to those who would reciprocate in a similar situation is justifiable or commendable. What are Ideals? I used to love talking about my "Ideals", but this is a game who has ideals? Really... Sure we have ideals in real life, but typically they change and morph into whatever would be the best thing for us to do in gaining money, power, women, or a good spot in the afterlife. In CN they they float so much more easily, and are typically just a way of saying "I'm right", because peoples ideals must be right ideals are pure things like the Founding Fathers had, not so much. We may have ideals, but they serve corrupted emotions. So we as CNers are but toys, not only of those big bad guys in back room IRC channels (Hey I have one of those!), but of our own random emotions and hidden ambitions. We are oblivious Toy Soldiers in the game of CN, I finally realized that and it has freed me. I'm not going to worry about honor or loyalty, or holding a set of ideals anymore. I'm not going to hold myself as some type of puritan and talk about how tech raiding is just armed robbery, or how reps are a form of extortion. I'm going to rob helpless unaligneds and plunder their goods, and I'll accept every last bit of extorted tech there is after a war. And I won't feel bad about any of it, because honor is an unimportant label. Now I'm not arrogant, I'm aware cynicism is just another emotion, but it feels closer to freedom than anything else I've tried. Yes I realize this probably has no relevance at all, but I had to get this out. It really is amazing once you realize that the OWF is exactly like Fox news, but without hot news anchors. To some CN grows boring once they realize it is not an idealized world, to others they think they need to change it, (see Vox Populi and/or the views of many Karma coalition members) but this is not something that can be changed, it is part of human nature and exists wherever you go, be it CN, RL, or any other MMO. So I choose to embrace it, also now I get to complain about all the silly people with there quaint ideals, which will be great fun. Ninja Edit: Spelling

The purpose of public apology is to build the ego of the nation or alliance demanding one. They serve nothing other than to show the submission of the apologizing party to the will of the offended party. Now private apologies are of course different, but public apology are matters of ego.

Well I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but as I read it I became quite angry in general. I'm not even sure who I'm angry at anymore, so forgive me if this post doesn't fill any preconceived views of my politics. Fact is whenever people talk about things they don't know about they speculate and make untrue assumptions, those same assumptions are fueled by people who do know something altering the truth to fit their own ideals, desire for power, popularity, or attention. Then the masses feed on it, quite interesting to watch if you aren't invested in those happenings yourself. Let's clear some random things up.... Argument: Francesca betrayed MCXA by co-operating with Vox Populi False While I do not have access to her communication with Vox Populi based on my experience while in MCXA I have no reason to believe this was not to MCXA's benefit. The information went both ways as she had access to a great deal of Vox intelligence as well. Intelligence that could have been used to great effect to position MCXA to survive the war and come out in a very strong position if the Chancellors had believed her. It is my opinion that her intentions were to help the MCXA, and all in all she actually did help MCXA and could have helped a great deal more if she were not so heavily handicapped by the government which did not trust her. Now that does not change the fact that she violated all of our trust, but I do not think she was a traitor. Only a severely flawed patriot. Argument: According to Francesca being offered govt positions in alliances means you are trustworthy and credible. False Most alliance governments are totally incompetent, and made up of incompetent people who will happily offer up government positions to anybody who seems like a "good guy", yes even sanctioned alliances. If you happen to be female, highly active, and willing to flirt a bit it becomes even easier. Utter incompetents like Cadie managed to get in MCXA High Council while we were the #3 alliance in the game. Being offered government positions in non-elite alliances is hardly something to be massively proud of, or terribly difficult to achieve if you set your mind to it. Claim: Political parties were against the MCXA Charter False The MCXA Charter makes no mention of political parties, it simply delegates running elections to the Chancellors. In the past Chancellors had always placed no political parties as a rule on election threads. iirc no such rule was posted on the announcement thread for the election in question. Argument: Campaigning within a Democratic system to make changes and planning the campaign for those changes in back rooms is betraying your constituent. False Any Democracy is based on providing arguments for your point of view in such a way that a majority of people will support you and your ideas. To do this you must plan and co-ordinate with friends so that you can provide a stronger more compelling argument. Every RL politician has a circle of advisers, pollsters, and volunteers who help them run a campaign, be it a run for office or the building of support for an important bill. This is not traitorous in RL, and it is not traitorous in CN. Claim: Francesca is just trying to get attention Partially True Memoirs are written by vain people, and people who need the book money. Obviously the second does not apply here. Why? As Francesca has made clear this only creates more enemies for her, but I think she feels entitled to glory in victory. In an ordinary victory taking some time to claim your victory is fine, but this is no normal victory. Vox Populi turned itself into the same manipulative propaganda machine NPO was, this was necessary but not glorious. To use the movie V for Vendetta as an example, V did bring about a revolution that saved Britain, but he to do that he became a monster. The victory was Evey's not V's, it couldn't be V's because V in the end was no different than those he opposed, but he died and gave his struggle to Evey, just as Vox has disbanded, yet given us a great gift. It had to be this way, if we hail Vox as our heros then we cannot fully cleanse our world. Francesca doesn't understand this, and so she keeps trying to get the attention she naively thinks she deserves. Quickly this has turned from an innocent snatch at glory, to a head long attempt to get some kind of recognition and attention, good or bad regardless of how much old material gets dug up, or where dirt lands be it on her friends or her enemies. Claim: The Sweet Oblivion are a group of friends absolutely loyal to each other as friends and so it was only logical for them all to move together False At least several of TSO's current members were aware of and had privately endorsed (but chose not to participate in) the campaign against TFS, and at one point a current TSO member was actively working to brute force hack Ololiqui's forum account so that a resignation could be posted since sam was refusing to allow an impeachment (I had nothing to do with this, but the individual in question told me they were brute forcing the account and considering posting a resignation once they got it). Sam finally allowed the impeachment to go ahead before this person's program was completed and as far as I know they ceased when Celt was made Chancellor, because we never spoke of it again. TSO is hardly the band of brothers they claim to be, a few of their members are, but most are leeches and hangers on who just followed the bandwagon because they (correctly) realized TSO would end up doing better than MCXA. I look forward for drama there, it should be at least as fun to watch as MCXA drama was. Not true, you continue to exaggerate your involvement in events. Francesca's involvement in early pre-TSO splinter events was far less than she suggests, even the propaganda campaign against TFS pre-dated her involvement by about a week, and she was only brought in due to possessing useful screen shots. Francesca was not significantly involved in the core of MCXA drama until after she was elected to government in the post-TSO period. The forums were approximately 2-3 days old when I was alerted to their existence and investigated them. Not sure how relevant it is to anyone, but I can verify this as being completely true.

It was my intention not to touch this thread with a ten foot pole, but seemingly it is about me as much as it is about Francesca or Vox_Populi, so I feel compelled to set a few facts straight. My BSometer just broke. That was Jenn Gone'Wild who informed us not you, I brought her to my channel where several people including you were briefed. When we took action it was planned out primarily by me, Jenn, and a third unnamed individual. Our plans were carried out primarily by Fran and several others since me and Jenn were not MCXA at the time, but Fran's role in that while important was not that of the brave leader marshaling the rest of us together but of an important piece of a whole acting on information gathered by Jenn and plans hatched primarily by Jenn and myself. Quite to the contrary I did express my regret for taking something further than it should have gone about two months ago, my apology was roundly rejected and you insulted me repeatedly Logs: (edited for swearing, OOC content, and IPs) I said nothing about To Catch a Predator, nor did I ever call you a predator or pedophile. The only word I ever used was "inappropriate", it was you who made the jump to pedophile. I said I thought that the things you had said to a minor (not divulging Fran's OOC age) were inappropriate for a member of government to be saying, and later I said that saying inappropriate things to a minor was what they nailed Foley with. My implication being that Foley did not break OOC laws, but his actions were definitely inappropriate for members of government to be making so he resigned in disgrace, despite never being charged with pedophilia etc. TFS similarly had said things to his members that were inappropriate coming from a member of government for similar reasons (sexual content). I think someone else (idr who) thought it would be funny to post a pic of the guy from To Catch a Predator when he saw our posts, but it was quickly removed and not related to me in any way. I resigned once, on April 13th 2009. I did resign once from my position in Milcom in September 2008 as a way to bring attention to the rampant inactivity, and I resigned once from the High Council in January in protest of the way things were done and (ironically) because you demanded that I resign. After that I did choose to resign my commission as a High Councilor because I couldn't be an effective government member if sam didn't want me there. And by resigning I could bring attention to these abuses. But I have only resigned from the MCXA once, precisely the number of times you have sam. The original was proposed by Daedalus27 and TIinPA it resulted in a great deal of fighting which I participated in, later I talked it over with Grinder (TFS) and we eventually came to an uneasy compromise that resulted in ending that fighting and giving us the amendment still in MCXA's Charter (written by me and extensively edited by Daedalus27 and Grinder) I think those are the major factual innacuracies that directly relate to me. Hopefully that covers it and you can all go discuss Fran, Vox, and spying instead of me. As for my reply to the OP I think this whole memoirs thing is overblown, for a relatively minor spy... It sort of reeks of the way former Bush people all got book deals, and certainly shows a great deal of ego. But as for her actions Francesca was, and remains a very dear friend of mine. I don't approve of her spying, but I do understand how she justified it and I do sympathize with that logic. At the same time I can understand why others do not, and overall that's why I really want no part in this thread. I have separated my feelings, and while I'm angry as a former MCXA member I can also understand her and support her as a friend, for people who don't know her personally though I don't begrudge you being angry.

Agreed, no EZI just means they won't attack you for being a re-roll, I think refusing membership to your alliance if they are a re-roll of someone who has tried to harm you before would definitely be legitimate.

Yup, I still don't see how prosecuting King Penchuk for being a <expletive> 7 months ago has anything to do with me criticizing TOP/TSO for being <expletive>s today. Yes I was one of the most vocal people supporting his ZI, I happened to also be one of the most vocal against EZI'ing him, and argued at great length to release him once he hit ZI. If King Penchuk still has a problem with me he's welcome to come talk to me, go rogue on me, or ask his alliance to ZI me, but he's shown himself to be perfectly capable of calling me out himself if he has a problem. All in all though, this has zero relevance to TOP/TSO's recent PR stunts, so what's your point again? (DAC)Syzygy: Rather direct or implied it is clear this was up to TOP, read the logs with Chill. TOP's refusal to allow Karma alliances to properly hit IRON caused Chill to come up with his absurd and failed plan. If TOP had played the part of a loyal Karma alliance and suspended/canceled treaties with core hegemony members instead of working to protect them then that would not have been necessary.

Not sure where this hilarity is coming from, if your implying somehow that getting in a fight with King Penchuck & Bob 7 months ago makes me a permanent tool of the Hegemony then I'm really not sure how to even respond to something so absurd. If you mean that I was also government of a hegemony alliance several months ago, then yes that's definitely true, but I'de say getting expelled twice certainly gives me the right to change my allegiance away from those who mistreated me. If you look at the logs of Chill he references TOP multiple times saying they won't allow IRON to be destroyed. You don't need to be a genius to see that TOP had contact with Chill and had pressured him into doing what he did.

Hardly a surprising PR move, after the IRON reps/surrender thing as well it's clear TOP has been working to shield Hegemony alliances from surrender terms. TOP and TSO were both former members and benefactors of the Hegemony and jumped ship to protect their infrastructure, it's only logical that today they would protect their old brothers who they have more in common with than those in our new world. TOP and TSO were never really part of Karma and had no business claiming participation in this war for the very minor skirmishing they did. I don't think they will be missed by those who continue to bring war to Echelon.

Very good show guys, bad idea or not a court is what MCXA needs and I feel this may finally give the MCXA a chance to move beyond the rampantly corrupt and politically motivated show trials conducted by the government in the past. o/ Liffer o/ Daedalus I can't think of anyone I would prefer to trust a court too, you will do well.

Sounds like you were expelled...

...and this is why Vox had to disband:) Really for a lot of people moralizing about EZI was just a way to rebel against and undermine Pacifica, fortunatly these bitter types are not in the majority today but they are here.

Well there's a global war going on right now, I imagine the basic house cleaning will need to wait until after that. I'm sure Athens will move on this and I hope hey find an excuse to activate C'n'G, cause this a cause I would certainly be happy to roll for, I don't know much about today's Pyramid but I worked with them a lot before they disbanded the first time and they were really great people.

I should have mentioned that one too... Though I will always hold that as my "kicked out of MCXA song" Really anything by Immortal Technique is gaurunteed to pump you for war (Internally Bleeding, Industrial Revolution, Obnoxious, Angels of Death, Land of the Gun, etc.)

I have a few, but Bring Da' Ruckus by Wu-Tang Clan would be my top choice. Patiently Waiting by 50 Cent and Eminem, and Go To Sleep by Eminem and DMX are definitely runners up, maybe Get my Gun by D12 as well... No links, I would probably get warned:p

This is a great debate and all, but if we look at an RL situation where something like this is happening it becomes obvious. Suppose you are attacked by a man (or rather a whole gang of them), after a brief fight you are backed into a corner and beat mercilessly. You are helpless two thugs are holding you by your arms while a third punches you in the face and stomach, you spit out a tooth as blood pours down your face. He laughs at you and then says if you give up your wallet they will let you be as he pulls back for another strike... This is basically the situation most alliances are in when they accept terms, they are fighting a hopeless war and they accept whatever terms are dictated because they realize they may not survive continued beating and nobody is showing up to help them. ...Now you give the thugs your wallet and they take it tie you up and leave you, you eventually free yourself and go straight to the police. A few months later the thugs have been caught and charged with robbing you, but when their leader takes the stand he denies the charges. He says that you removed your wallet from your pocket and handed it to him of your own fee will. He says that if you hadn't wanted him to have your wallet you would not have given it to him, so that the robbery charge is absurd. He would be laughed out of any court, and summarily convicted. Apparently though this argument works in CN? Because everyone has demanded reps and we don't like to admit that reps are simply armed robbery, sure they don't have to accept your terms, just like the bank teller doesn't have to give the robber with a gun to her head the money. But when you are threatened with death (or eternal war which is basically IC death) then it is still robbery and extortion. Now of course CN is a game and we are all free to rob and extort each other and doing so certainly adds flavor, but let's not try to blame the victim for giving the robber his money. That is patently absurd.

Agreed 100%, I mean simply requiring the return of stolen goods is completely and utterly fair and lenient. Also this would clearly show that it isn't just about getting reparations for Karma alliances, it would be about returning stolen tech to alliances like the GPA who are not part of Karma. By doing this we would once and for all prove that this war was not about our lust for power, but about justice and justice means recovering every last scrap of tech stolen by NPO be it from Karma members, neutral alliances, or even current NPO allies (Legion iirc?). There is no need for reperations to be punitive, a simple return of what NPO has stolen should be plenty.

I agree in general that the reparations don't make a huge difference, if you are worried about an alliance rebounding too quickly the best solution is too keep beating on them until they are too destroyed to be a threat. To me this makes far more sense than trying to extract large reparations which only result in long term anger between the two parties. As an example take a look at MCXA, even after over a week of peace they still at approximately 36% of their pre-war NS, 37% of pre-war score and half their pre-war members. Reparations or not they will not be rebuilding to pre-war levels for many months if ever. NPO has still not taken that kind of damage, but I have no doubt they will before they get terms. NPO has lost around 450,000 technology in war already, far more than even the hardest rep payments would require I expect them to lose another hundred thousand before this is over at the very least. As long as we are sure not too offer terms until after the nations hiding in peace mode are attacked and beaten down as well NPO will takes ages to build back up regardless of reparations payments which be puny compared to war damage they have already taken. White peace or lack of reps do not worry me, what does worry me is the fact so many alliances were allowed to go free in the early stages of the war allowing them to avoid a huge percentage of the damage taken by the alliances which are staying in longer. In fact some hegemony alliances (TOOL, etc.) have taken less damage in this than many Karma alliances, this is something that's worrisome, reparations are comparatively minor.

Wow, well you succeeded in everything you set out to do, and then the one thing that impresses me far more than any protracted guerrilla war. You proclaim victory and melt back into CN, in the past I have always looked at Vox as a grab at power and relevance. I agreed with their stated principles but I always felt Vox Populi was just a way for has been big shots of the past to stay relevant. It seems I was wrong about Vox, I am very impressed to see you all laying down your flag ow that the struggle is over. Never thought I would say this, but... o/ Vox Populi

The Order of the Paradox is the better Order? I always thought the Order of the Black Rose should have that distinction myself. Perhaps I should make a poll... Congratz NpO, may this be a permanent change that remains in effect post war.

I gained several hundred land this war despite being nuked 4 times. Losing around 1300 land to nukes and maybe 500 more to ground attacks hurt, but my own ground attacks got it all back plus about 500 more, land is just so easy to steal that it will be possible to profit in war even with nukes. Also remember that for CN overall land is very hard to destroy, in fact the only ways CN can lose land are nukes, nations selling land, and nations deleting. Otherwise every mile of land purchased stays in CN and just moves between nations during wars. Unlike infrastructure which is always destroyed in war no matter what. I think land inflation is a more serious concern than deflation is to be honest. No doubt land is broken, but the problem lies with it's uselessness not with it being too difficult to obtain or too easily destroyed. In order to fix land we would need to vastly reduce it's NS contribution and/or increase its population boost and make the cost scale more linearly as the cost of infrastructure does currently. Currently the cost scales the way tech does meaning that to make it an attractive purchase for high level nations it would be hugely overpowered for small nations who can purchase it very cheaply.