Jump to content

Sardonic

Members
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Posts

    3,129

  • Joined

  • Last visited

 Content Type 

Blog Entries posted by Sardonic

  1. Sardonic
    Greetings and welcome.
    I decided to make this blog to give interested people an insight into GOONS. I am not sure how long I will continue it, but if there is sufficient interest, time permitting, I will keep it going.

    What is a Goon, anyway?


    Most simply a Goon is a member of the Something Awful Forums.
    Less simply there are many, many kinds of Goons out there. Each subforum is practically its own self-contained community, some threads can practically be communities in and of themselves. There are quite literally hundreds of subforums. I claim residence in Games, Laissez's Faire, and a thread in Private Game Servers.
    That said, there are many uniting factors which most, if not all goons share, I'll go into that if there is enough interest.

    A Brief History of Goons and the CN Family of Browser Games



    This is the very abridged version. There is a *lot* to say about what happened in the various spin-offs from the original CNGOONS, but I will limit that for now to the one I was most familiar with: The faction that resided on the moon.
    This faction is very special to me, for it was a faction that I served in government in nearly from the founding of the alliance to its death. While the faction started as a spin-off of the original CNGOONS (the charter was ripped almost word for word, in fact), it quickly developed its own unique culture. If I recall, none of the government had ever had positions in CNGOONS. We had to play the diplomatic game constantly, or risk destruction. The exploits of earthbound CNGOONS put a gigantic target on our heads (in many ways more so than we have now, as the wounds were still very fresh then). We evolved diplomatically to adapt, but we still lost many wars, if only because we could not make up the time gap, as we had come on the scene reasonably late. In the end though, we persevered, and wound up dominating the game.
    Of course, rather than have a GOONS dominated game on their hands, they decided to start a 'round two' of the game and close registration of the first round. Either way, that world is dead and gone, and it ended on a high note (for us anyway), and more importantly it helped develop our diplomatic skills.
    After the lunar escapade was done, we moved on to Galava, which didn't really work out either, for a variety of reasons.
    After all these factions died out, for a time there was nothing.

    CNGOONS2: Electric Boogaloo


    One day, out of the blue I received a message from my friend and sometimes mortal enemy, salithus. (salithus and I have a very long and colorful history, but I'm certainly not going to get into that here). He wanted to get GOONS back in CN. I agreed, I had wanted this for a long time, and had kept my nation up only for the hope of a return. Together (and with the writing help of Lamuella) we made it back. It wasn't easy, but it wasn't surprisingly hard either to get enough support to come back successfully. The lessons we had learned about diplomacy from the moon had served us well. Our government was largely people from the moon GOONS government.
    Our real obstacle to returning came internally. The old CNGOONS government (not all of it, but a few rabid ones) chose to oppose us dramatically, declaring we had "undone all the good they did by disbanding", an argument that still makes no sense to me to this day. But we managed to survive their trolling of our recruitment threads, and got many new people interested in Cybernations, as well as a few returning veterans.
    And then some other stuff happened, and here we are today, nearly a year later.
    Anyway, please make comments suggesting what to cover next. There is a lot of ground to cover. Topics about my involvement with all this, the core differences between us and the original, what exactly happened on the moon, those sorts of things.
  2. Sardonic
    Why start with NpO/NPO?


    When we were beginning the process of coming back, a conscious decision was made to start at the perceived 'center' of the game. This approach was the right one for several reasons. The main practical reason was to form relationships with the most powerful and well connected, and use that as leverage. This prevented us from having to go around making peace with every alliance at war with the former GOONS. I do not know how it would have gone had gone with attempting peace with all, but I doubt it would have ended favorably. One of the more interesting bits of information I uncovered while negotiating with one of NPO's main allies for the return was that we were not the first group of Goons to attempt to reform GOONS, I believe they said there had been at least three prior attempts, they probably picked the wrong approach.

    What actually happened?


    The protectorate was originally only with NpO. As part of negotiations, NPO wanted in on the treaty too. After deliberation we decided to roll with it. Negotiations were slow at first, as there was a lot going on. We were sent by NpO/NPO to argue our case to a few choice allies, to make sure everything was in order. We then got the treaty approved by NpO and NPO in that order. We then posted it. (Which I can't find a link to, but you can imagine the mess that thread was)

    Opinion on Both and Case


    At its core the protectorate was more with NpO than NPO. The issue of joint custody came up because I believe both alliances wanted to use our power, to have us as allies. I don't really have a problem with that line of thinking. We certainly don't come into this expecting to be negotiating from a position of power, but we were treated fairly like equals while presenting our case. The case being, essentially, that we were not Those GOONS, and that those of the membership of the old GOONS (myself included) were betrayed by our government. Which was and is still true. This case went surprisingly well with the primary allies of NpO and NPO. I'm glad that everyone was reasonable, even one dissenting alliance could have stonewalled the entire reconciliation.

    Opinion on NPO


    NPO was a special case. A *lot* of Goons have a severely negative opinion of NPO, citing a belief that they either abandoned us or deliberately killed us. I personally do not subscribe to either conspiracy theory. My understanding of the incident is that the conflict between the old GOONS and NpO forced them neutral, until a conflict far enough from the core of the primary war combatants opened up (This is the logic we used to defend Umbrella in the short lived NpO/\m/&&PC War, rather than staying true neutral). This is reasonable, they had two allies fighting, this is a precedent set a long time ago to not interfere directly when allies fight.
    With respect to the reformation however, the longest part of it, in-arguably, was waiting for Moo to get back to us. It took a solid month from the time the treaty was sent to get it signed. I realize that there was a lot going on at that time period (to say the least), but we genuinely felt we were getting stonewalled. However, it all worked out in the end. Part of me regrets that we had to sever the tie as part of NPO's surrender terms, I feel with a little more active diplomacy we probably could have worked things out.

    Opinion on NpO


    Again, NpO was integral to our entire reformation effort. I credit them directly (after salithus and I, ofc) for the reformation of the alliance. This is why I regard them so highly. Without them there would probably not be a GOONS, I cannot really overstate this enough. In the time of their second chance, they gave us one.
    Interestingly enough, our friendship with NpO started very indirectly. On the moon, a lot of NpO members were in an alliance we were allied to for the vast majority of the game. While politics kept us seemingly never fighting directly for each other, ours was one of the strongest bonds in the game. I met my good friends DFD, Draz, and Swiper there. They also formed an alliance in Galava, KoS, and we did some fun stuff in the brief period we played it, or rather, made plans to. It was dynamite on paper, but that's something for a later entry.
    Anyway the core diplomacy took place between salithus Grub and I. I honestly think that the Grub then is a different person from the Grub today. I still have respect for Grub, but still recognize the unanimous complaints from the other government about his posting about us. With Penguin taking over for Grub I look forward to building relations again, and hopefully someday reinstating our treaty, both governments permitting.
  3. Sardonic
    Currency in Cybernations: A meaningless personalization choice? Not so.


    Some might think so, most probably do. To Goons however, there is but one true currency: the Dong. Why is this you might ask? There is humor in it. A subtle, almost self-deprecatingly ironic, immature humor. This in many ways encapsulates the goon mindset of maximizing humor, and the type of humor we find hilarious. this does not however mean we find everything hilarious, far from it, we have very strict humor standards in certain fields of humor.

    We *Hate* "LULZ"


    This is a distinction that I am surprised we have to make. The very *word* "LULZ" is a 4chan construct. For a long time on SA it has been bannable to even use it. "LULZ" comes from a mindset of unintelligent humor. At its core, Goon humor can be described as whimsically irreverent humor. The humor, for the most part, also transcends the misguided "offensive for edgyness' sake" branch of humor, that has sadly become synonymous with us, even though it does not define us. While elements of that exist, I would be a fool to deny it, they are not the primary focus.

    Pubbies: Why are Goons so condescending?


    We feel superior to 'normal' players of games because with each Goon group in an online game, we bring our culture. In many ways Something Awful is seen as a walled city, jutting up from a sea of filth. Central to Something Awful is the motto "The Internet makes you stupid". We don't see ourselves as part of the unwashed masses, we are special and unique snowflakes, we paid $10 and we'll be damned if we don't use it. We think of ourselves as an internet community beyond internet communities, an internet community with standards. While on its face this seems patently hypocritical, but our standards are not what you'd expect.

    What happens?


    Simply put, if you violate any written rules, or even any unwritten societal rules you will get probated (no posting for a day, few days, week, or even month), banned, or even permabanned. Bans require $10 to overturn. Take for example these three actions:

    These are minor offenses, but still indicative. If these users continue, they will probably be banned down the line. In general though, you have to try pretty hard to get outright permabanned. The standards relate to using AOL speak, being a 4channer, being a furry, saying something terrible unironically, or just posting the goatman. There are a variety of standards, and they shaped the community into the large hivemind of roughly similar people it is now. If you are interested, please check the ban list here. I forget if it requires a login or not.

    What does this mean for GOONS the alliance?


    Well as you might expect from an alliance derived from such a community, we too strive to meet the same standards, but in a different way. Here the leadership has to keep the torch lit and the standards high, without risking alienation of the general membership. Naturally, we don't charge entry into the alliance, so a certain level of cultural contamination is assured. A typical pattern of large-scale Goon game operations is the letting in of non-Goons (pubbies). Fortunately, for the most part, they adapt to our culture, rather than them changing us. Some elements certain pubbies brought in were central to the alliance's success in the original CNGOONS. Many people joined SA after having been in the original CNGOONS.

    In summary:


    The culture of the original GOONS was it's main selling point. It grew and grew and grew until its peak at 1200 or so. A part of me hopes for a return to those kind of numbers, but it will be quite some time, and we will have to convert many pubbies to do so. We have a lot of work to do on getting our own culture into high gear. Our culture will not be the exact same as the old GOONS, we came from a place where we had to diplomatically fight for our lives to survive, and we put a high focus on prudent diplomatic action. This is not to say we fear war, in truth, we relish it, but we also have the benefit of knowing the benefit of allies.
    A favorite quote of mine from Al Capone was "You can get further with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word". I personally extend the meaning to. "In the absence of a gun, you can get more with a kind word than an unkind one". We're not so bad if you get to know us.
  4. Sardonic
    I never trusted salithus.
    Of course, coming from the person wronged, that kind of statement can oftentimes be a lie, that the person saying it had no idea it was coming.
    This was not the case.
    salithus and I had a very troubled history. I knew that one day something like this would happen. When this finally went down, I was well prepared. Or at least as well-prepared as I could be, given the circumstances. I spent many days in the office where I work running through the various scenarios in my mind. I thought about it constantly, I was obsessed. It kept me up at night. I knew the rubber was going to hit the road, and soon.
    This log is from a few days before the incident:
    [21:41] <salithus> you're afraid to push the envelope
    [21:41] <salithus> but my boss's boss does the same thing
    [21:41] <salithus> too many years spent in a position where you couldn't without being fired (or losing infra)
    [21:41] <Sardonic> What do you mean by pushing the envelope on the macro level?
    [21:42] <salithus> to take any sort of risk
    [21:42] <salithus> you always default to playing it safe
    [21:42] <salithus> never aggressive
    [21:42] <Sardonic> Well I wouldn't say always
    [21:44] <Sardonic> So what kinds of things would you like to me to do differntly?
    [21:45] <salithus> nothing in the role of Pilot
    [21:45] <salithus> but I'm contemplating (for that reorg I mentioned) splitting out the Secretariat role
    [21:45] <salithus> into areas that focus on:
    [21:45] <salithus> 1) Creating new relationships.
    [21:46] <salithus> 2) Handling treaties (negotiating/writing/periodic review/incident handling)
    [21:46] <salithus> 3) Incident handling for non-treaty incidents.
    [21:46] <salithus> you'd head up #1
    [21:46] <Sardonic> ah
    [21:47] <salithus> doesn't mean everyone you talk to we'd have to treaty with
    salithus never respected me. He overreached his authority constantly because he knew that the boards were his. The above was during a time when he decided he didn't like the way government was organized, so he started a reorganization. Of course, as Stategos he did not have the power to reorganize government, but that didn't really matter to him. He wanted me out of Pilot, and into a position with exactly 1/3 the power of secretariat. If he had done this without anyone's approval, and remasked himself as Pilot, that would be my signal to rehost the forums elsewhere and declare him a traitor.
    That is how I expected this to go down, that is what I had prepared all my forums posts/mass messages/etc for.
    That is not what happened.
    During the 'reorg' he removed everybody's admin rights to the forum but his, only restoring a few bits, but not the whole. Fortunately I saved my database copy before he did this. The other point at which I knew a coup was imminent would be if he refused to give me back my admin rights, which he had been extremely slow at. There is no excuse, it was the checking of a box, and I should have been the first person's access he fixed. I was going to set a deadline yesterday that if he passed I would declare him in dereliction of his duty and start the moving process, but that didn't happen either.
    Instead, my good friend the co-pilot gave me the admin rights back and apparently got into an argument with salithus which hurt salithus' feelings so much, he took his ball and went home.
    As far as I'm concerned there was no good reason for him to do this. Regardless of how it happened we are stronger for it. His cancerous presence in the alliance had been a thorn in my side for a long time, even from before CN. He was never satisfied with my decisions, and started fights for the pure fun of it in IRC.
    And now we are rid of him, we are finally free.
    Edit: Mentioning other games is bad. - Revan
  5. Sardonic
    The Question


    A thread runs throughout all the Goon gaming guilds, across all the various games we play. It is the question that the leadership will have to ask, find an answer for, and ultimately to choose to ignore or adapt. The question: "How much can we get away with?" The answer is different for each game. Goonswarm, the EVE goon group, at its peak was a bastion of letting its members get away with whatever they wanted. Goonswarm's membership garnered billions of isk (the in-game currency) through scamming, and other mischief. Most other Goon groups however have to find a middle path between what is fun/ideologically pure and what is necessary for survival.

    Historical Perspective


    Recently I had a great talk with a scholar of GOONS history (hi babyjesus). He confirmed what I had known from my discussions with other Ex-GOONS from the time. As time dragged on, the old CNGOONS government (for the most part) became less and less concerned with the survival of the alliance. Their recklessness cost them many allies, culminating in their defeat at the end of the UJP war. Rather than pass on the alliance to the next generation of leadership, they killed it, and arguably with it, the largest community of Goons in any browser game. They found their answer to the question, and it was a simple "no". They rejected the rules of the game, their former allies, and eventually the game itself.
    On the moon we found an easily reachable answer. Everything about the game was lax, the moderators, the diplomacy, the risks involved with war, the game itself. It was an ideal world to learn our trade. We found the middle path, and we rarely strayed, and were able to accomplish much hilarity. We operated within the confines of the game, stuck with it, and eventually won, and did it with style. We successfully passed down the most important position (Pilot) a good many times. The truest test of any browser based alliance is process of passing the reigns to the next generation of leaders. If an alliance cannot survive this, it has failed. The old CNGOONS failed.

    Finding the next answer


    As we near our first anniversary, I've taken stock of where we've been, what we've accomplished, what enemies we've made, what allies we've gained, and what allies we've lost. I can't say I have no regrets, and there were certainly a lot of things I'd have done differently now, but we have done well for ourselves. We have had a few run-ins with the reckless mentality of old, but in the end cooler heads have prevailed. We're having a blast in the war, and it was everything we hoped it would be, we have good relations with our allies, and internally things have never been better. I don't see us making the same mistakes as the GOONS of old did, our answer is far more reasonable.
  6. Sardonic
    This past week, Sirwilliam produced a check-in google doc which contained a space for members to voice their opinions regarding the war. The response was overwhelming. The majority of the alliance has already weighed in, and here are some of the choice quotes, which will be anonymous. If any GOONS reading this want to claim their quote, go for it.
    A lot of it boiled down to this:
    "It was a lot more fun before 2 nuclear capable nations declared on me. I went from 9.5K nation strength to 1.2K strength (and declining). But I've been getting aid and rebuilding will probably happen quickly, so it's all good."
    even more of it boiled down to this:
    "It was cool, but all my targets were good. And I got piled. But pixels are lulzy, so I don't care that much."
    But sadly, there was a lot of dismay within the goons ranks:
    "Its ok but not the opponents aren't doing much, so it ends up being somewhat uneventful once you declare and anarchy your offensive war opponents. Everything on our end is going very smoothly and I feel that we have a lot of support and coordination on this side."
    It failed to live up to some expectations:
    "I think we need some better opponents, these guys are dull and uninvolved with banter and ****, **** them"
    "Two of my targets are going to delete. This war is boring and I need cash to pay my bills.
    Also, nuke sard."
    "Not enough competent enemies..."
    "Need more targets"
    "I cant declare on more then 3 targets? this is bull****"
    "Having a blast, only damper is NPOs incredibly boring strategy of buying abloslutely nothing, and spying away money. I think they're betting on us having less money than them."
    "NPO/NSO are worst war playmates ever."
    "This war is quite literally the best thing about CN. Also, NPO are useless."
    But overall, a good time was had by all:
    ""quite a bit" does not cover it.
    Aid and nukes fall from the sky and I am loving this ****! Send down more NPO."
    "Enjoying the war. Opponents at my level (high Aspie, low BYOB) are pretty disappointing. Haven't been in anarchy yet, accepted one round of aid ($15M, thanks) and have been feeding off targets otherwise.
    Tried trolling NPO/Legion to get more defensive wars but that didn't work. I've given up on them. Enemies aren't surrendering/accepting terms so I'm willing to keep putting them in anarchy and eroding their nations.
    Just DoW'd and attacked a nuke-capable target, so hopefully things will get more interesting."
    "37 of my nukes have sailed directly into the enemy's collective anus, so I am a happy camper."
    The overall opinion of the war has been overwhelming positive, proving once again the strength of the GOONS warrior spirit.
    So to those who expected us to break and surrender: really? You really expected GOONS to surrender in the face of so much entertaining war? If your aim was to force us to surrender, you have made a grave miscalculation, because it is not war that kills us, it is lack of war. War feeds us, grows our community. If you'll glance over at our applicant AA, you'll see how your mistake was far graver than you could possibly imagine. When we have rebuilt, we will be far, far stronger than we we were at the onset of the war.
  8. Sardonic
    Faced with the immense unjustness of not being allowed to accept nuclear rogues into an alliance, UPN apparently turned to Schattenmann for help. Schattenmann, having finally found his calling, set to the task by making a channel to discuss and plan our imminent demise.
    The following excerpts are from that channel, the night of the incident:
    Charming.
    The people in this room sought our demise, a loose coalition of people, some of which who considered each other enemies, united by hatred of us.
    So begins the coalition building, things start out positively enough.
    Schattenmann loves his speeches, here he attempts to build support for his movement, and downplay the laughability of UPN.
    So begins the hilarious speculation, and the ignorance. I find the mention of NPO highly amusing, because while I don't work with NPO, I'm going to take a wild guess and say NPO wouldn't touch this coalition with a 10 foot poll, especially with the stated cb (or lack there of as we will soon find out). The other thing the coalition does not realize is that it is already too late. We have treaties with all members of PB other than FOK, so the formation of the bloc has little realistic difference on the outcome, and of course, we have more than enough other friends to defeat anything they can throw at us.
    [20:11] <~Schattenmann> IF, if, C&G falls apart and SF falls apart, those people that just NEED a bloc to feel valid will go to Pandora's Box
    This is pretty funny because it makes so many assumptions, that both C&G and SF will fall apart, and that PB would even be attractive to people leaving them.
    This one's pretty amusing as well, because it vastly underestimates the extent of MK and GOONS' relationship, while at the same time forgetting that at present date, MK has no treaties.
    [20:18] <~Schattenmann> I've been wanting this to happen since before I heard about UPN 20 minutes ago
    No surprise there, Schattenmann.
    [20:18] <@MyWorld[DT]> PC and Umb are part of NOIR, so we'd have to plan this right, as that can cause some conflict of treaties of fellow members.
    Here's some more ignorance, how would NOIR possibly be high enough priority for anyone to keep people out?
    [20:19] <bud> UPN are dead weight they would be mostly shields if you can even get them ot go on the offensive at all
    bud is a classy individual, and so begins some of the more obvious internal conflicts.
    It was never about defending UPN in reality, it was just about finding a CB against us. Thus begins the desperate search for a CB to use against us before we attained invincibility by virtue of our diplomatic ties (which we had done months earlier anyway).
    Here's a good case of vastly overestimating one's diplomatic position, in addition to missing the point that the 90m precedent was set with regards to people such as methrage only. Amazing how they ignored the fact that we were charging 15m for the runts who ran to UPN, citing the 90m instead.
    That is it for part 1, I'm going to split this into multiple parts for formatting reasons. Please stay tuned to this blog for the remaining parts (there is a lot left).
  9. Sardonic
    [23:53] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> fault?
    [23:53] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> that there was no war?
    [23:53] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I suppose GOONs didn't want one so they accepted money
    Oh, Peggy!
    It is nice that after pages upon pages of leaking other people's logs, I get to share some of the ones that I have collected personally (interspersed with a few donations from friends, such as the above). Our dealings with UPN have been rather... amusing to say the least. I would like to remind everybody that reads the following that this is the alliance from which the foundation of a war against us was to spring.
    To start with, let us go back to a simpler time, when there was little animosity between UPN and GOONS. We dispatch a government member to see about the UOKMB member who has fled to them.
    [22:33:31] <Peggy_Sue|AFK> hello
    [22:33:53] <DarkSol[GOONS]> hello
    [22:34:12] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> You are from Goons asking about an applicant to UPN?
    [22:34:19] <DarkSol[GOONS]> Yes.
    [22:34:36] <DarkSol[GOONS]> http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=313301 <--- specifically, him
    [22:34:38] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> What was the reason of war with that 7-man alliance MK4 left?
    [22:35:18] <DarkSol[GOONS]> They attacked us because we were GOONS.
    [22:36:52] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> on their war list I see they were attacking goons first...but does it go beyond 9-6?
    [22:36:58] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I mean, before 9-6?\
    [22:38:45] <DarkSol[GOONS]> consulting with higher gov
    [22:39:01] <DarkSol[GOONS]> I don't think so, but I don't want to give you a wrong answer
    [22:39:08] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> ok. thank you
    [22:39:25] <DarkSol[GOONS]> [22:38:56] <Beefspari> 9-6 is when my announcement went up.
    [22:39:25] <DarkSol[GOONS]> [22:39:01] <NikolaP> wrong .. idk
    [22:39:25] <DarkSol[GOONS]> [22:39:06] <dalstrs> they declare 9-6
    [22:39:25] <DarkSol[GOONS]> [22:39:09] <DarkSol[GOONS]> when did their announcement go up?
    [22:39:25] <DarkSol[GOONS]> [22:39:16] <Beefspari> Dunno
    [22:39:25] <DarkSol[GOONS]> [22:39:19] <Beefspari> 9-6 probably
    [22:39:41] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> so they posted a DoW on the cn forum?
    [22:40:19] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I found it
    [22:41:00] <DarkSol[GOONS]> It really was a DoE/W
    [22:45:01] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> ok. so a nation left an alliance that had DoE'd on goons.
    [22:45:18] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> you are at war with the alliance, yes?
    [22:45:50] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> it looks like it must be getting too hard on individual members...to see one leaving
    [22:46:48] <DarkSol[GOONS]> yep
    [22:47:02] <DarkSol[GOONS]> he peaced out at update and fled to your alliance
    [22:47:28] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> it is reasonable to consider that he'll stay in peace mode if we don't accept him
    [22:47:47] <DarkSol[GOONS]> under threat of our attack, probably.
    [22:48:02] <DarkSol[GOONS]> you could always tell him that you dont accept people in peace mode... to help us out
    [22:48:04] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> if GOONs were to consider letting him go, what type of favor would you like to see from UPN, in exchange for MK4?
    [22:50:07] <DarkSol[GOONS]> Some sort of reps and a promise that if he attacks us again, you'd be paying reps again.
    [22:50:21] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> 100 tech?
    [22:51:42] <DarkSol[GOONS]> 15m, due to the fact that he nuked us many times and did far more damage than just 100 tech?
    [22:52:54] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I will talk to MK4. He would be the one to pay that rep figure. If he won't then he will not be able to join us. If he does, but ever attacks you again as a rogue I'll boot him. Either way I will let you know... if that works for you all.
    [22:54:36] <DarkSol[GOONS]> Sure, if he can pay us the 15mil in reps to join your alliance, we're okay with that.
    [22:55:00] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> Thank you for your time.
    [22:55:09] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> is your channel cngoons?
    [22:55:24] <DarkSol[GOONS]> #cybergoons
    [22:55:27] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> thanks
    [22:55:31] <DarkSol[GOONS]> And thank you for your time as well.
    [22:55:42] <Peggy_Sue|UPN>
    Things seem to go well, no objections are raised about the price of the rebel in question.
    [20:49:43] <DarkSol[GOONS]> please msg me when you come back from AFK
    [20:49:50] <Peggy_Sue|AFK> hello
    [20:49:55] <DarkSol[GOONS]> hi!
    [20:50:23] <Peggy_Sue|AFK> Sardonic told me Beefspari would get with me for names to send money to
    [20:50:56] <DarkSol[GOONS]> so you guys are going to keep both from UOKMB and they agreed to 15mil?
    [20:51:06] <Peggy_Sue|AFK> yep
    The amount is accepted, it appears.
    [21:54:57] <WARLORD44[uPN-MoD]> DarkSol you around still
    [21:56:16] <DarkSol[GOONS]> ya
    [21:56:32] <WARLORD44[uPN-MoD]> ok Peggy talked with some other members of GOONS
    [21:56:39] <WARLORD44[uPN-MoD]> the deal is still on
    [21:57:05] <DarkSol[GOONS]> yeah, thats what i heard, discussed with peggy
    [21:57:45] <WARLORD44[uPN-MoD]> 30 Mil and you guys cut the UOKMB guys loose and we will accpet them and i will keep an eye on both
    [21:59:58] <DarkSol[GOONS]> yep
    [22:01:03] <WARLORD44[uPN-MoD]> ok it was good talking to you DarkSol
    [22:01:27] <DarkSol[GOONS]> and you
    Everything is going so swimmingly! If only this is where our story had ended...
    Problems began to arise, and I can only guess this was when UPN was first corrupted by Schattenmann and others in their in-vain search for cb. They reneged their deal, demanding that we stop pursuing the rogues, inflating a mistaken tech raid to ridiculous heights, and above all else, getting hella hysterical. More and more reports began to come to my desk about UPN's obstinance, and I grew annoyed with how long the process was taking.
    Peggy Queried me.
    [17:38] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> hello
    01[17:43] <Sardonic[GOONS]> hello
    [17:43] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> would you be able to meet tomorrow evening?
    01[17:43] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I'm not sure why there even needs to be discussion about this issue
    01[17:43] <Sardonic[GOONS]> it is cut and dry
    01[17:44] <Sardonic[GOONS]> we get 15m for a member (or former member) of UOKMB, we let them go, we don't, we keep attacking
    01[17:44] <Sardonic[GOONS]> why does there need to be some long drawn out discussion about this
    [17:45] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> UOKMB are not merging with us
    [17:45] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> they are taking advantage of missed staggers
    [17:45] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> and escaping to peace mode
    [17:45] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> they are coming one at a time
    01[17:45] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I don't care what AA they are flying, they will be attacked unless they pay up.
    [17:45] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I asked if terms were offered
    01[17:45] <Sardonic[GOONS]> or, if you want to buy them, you can pay for them
    [17:45] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> and was told 2 of them accepted but did not deliver
    01[17:46] <Sardonic[GOONS]> well then they must not really want peace
    01[17:46] <Sardonic[GOONS]> really peggy, these rogues are taking advantage of your good nature
    [17:46] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> Sardonic, I do not call them rogues. They were raided, and one that fought back was nuked for fighting back
    [17:46] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> then they, as an alliance declared war on you
    [17:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I would not call any member of an alliance that DoW'd a rogue
    01[17:47] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I don't give a <removed> about the definition, if you recognize them as an alliance, you can understand why we are pursuing them.
    01[17:47] <Sardonic[GOONS]> they are criminals, and they will not escape justice.
    [17:48] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I will share your words with my cabinet
    01[17:48] <Sardonic[GOONS]> okay.
    This was my first major discussion of the issue. I was taken aback at Peggy's absurd argument that just because they were in peace mode, taking advantage of failed staggers, that we should just let them go. I laid our position out cleanly and neatly so that there could be no question that we were not okay with letting them go. I thought the conversation had ended here, so I instinctivley closed the window to avoid clutter. Instantly it was opened again, red and blinking as ever.
    [17:48] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> On a nother note,
    [17:49] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> are you all going to be part of the new Pandora's Box bloc?
    01[17:49] <Sardonic[GOONS]> you all being GOONS? probably, if the bloc is finalized.
    [17:49] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> yes, your alliance is what I meant.
    01[17:49] <Sardonic[GOONS]> yes
    [17:50] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I hope to see mercy shown by GOONS to the micro alliances that have been raided in the past and hopefully the future
    01[17:51] <Sardonic[GOONS]> If you mean the mercy board, yeah, they can use that.
    [17:51] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> no
    [17:52] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I mean mercy in terms of stopping the raiding. Raiding one on one is one thing; group raiding 3 on 1 is another
    01[17:52] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I know you don't tech raid, but surely you've heard of the target shortages?
    01[17:52] <Sardonic[GOONS]> it's quite hard to find a target in these dark ages
    [17:52] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> We tech raid
    [17:53] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> we don't approve of our members piling up on a raid victim, however
    01[17:53] <Sardonic[GOONS]> well if you're complaining about 3v1 raids, you don't do ir right
    01[17:53] <Sardonic[GOONS]> it*
    01[17:53] <Sardonic[GOONS]> 3v1 is optimal, it grants the highest chance for success
    [17:53] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> what about nuking a victim?
    01[17:53] <Sardonic[GOONS]> who cares, they are unaligned. There's not much use for unaligneds beyond tech raiding and nuclear testing grounds.
    [17:54] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> the UOKMB nation was in an alliance
    [17:54] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> he was nuked for fighting back
    01[17:54] <Sardonic[GOONS]> no, he was nuked for the fun of it
    01[17:54] <Sardonic[GOONS]> but I take your "meaning"
    01[17:54] <Sardonic[GOONS]> UOKMB is not an alliance by our analysis.
    Peggy wished to start the first of many pointless debates with me about morality and raiding, of which I wasn't very interested in, so I threw in a few barbs. She dropped the issue. The next day I saw my government members getting frustrated, that apparently UPN was turning this into "a thing", and I was not amused. There was a discussion channel made for the hashing out of this incredibly debatable, negotiable issue.
    03[13:27] * Now talking in #Peggy
    [13:27] <@Peggy_Sue|AFK> Hello Sardonic
    01[13:27] <Sardonic[GOONS]> why the <removed> is mandolus here <-- sorry about that mandolus, by the way.
    01[13:27] <Sardonic[GOONS]> hello
    03[13:27] * Peggy_Sue|AFK is now known as Peggy_Sue|UPN
    [13:27] <Canfor|UPN> ok... did you attack UKOMB nation when it was flying that flag
    [13:27] <Canfor|UPN> or before it was flying that AA
    [13:27] <Mandolus> I was having a reasonable discussion and Peggy invited me in here
    01[13:28] <Sardonic[GOONS]> oh
    01[13:28] <Sardonic[GOONS]> well whatever
    [13:28] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Ktarthan raided UOKMB because they were a legitimate target to raid. But they already had plans to go rogue on someone before that.
    [13:28] <nippy[GOONS]> that's what I was asking, Canfor
    [13:28] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> ok, so, Ktarthan raided then nuked his target?
    01[13:28] <Sardonic[GOONS]> why are we discussing this
    [13:28] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> because the target fought back?
    [13:28] <nippy[GOONS]> ^this is what I was wondering
    [13:29] <nippy[GOONS]> what provoked the nuke
    [13:29] <nippy[GOONS]> since we all know Ktarthan wouldn't nuke a raid target for the hell of it.
    01[13:29] <Sardonic[GOONS]> who cares how it started, we're at war with these nations, and we will hunt them to the ends of the earth unless we get our money.
    [13:29] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Yes, the target didn't try to attain peace through one of the various methods we have available. The guy fought back knowing ktarthan had nukes. So Ktarthan nuked him to defend himself.
    [13:29] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> We are discussing this because we do not agree on what is a rogue, what is an alliance, and what is a legitimate raid and what to do with people that flee to peace mode leaving an alliance at war
    [13:29] <nippy[GOONS]> this is true
    01[13:29] <Sardonic[GOONS]> it doesn't matter what you agree with, we are attacking them if we don't get the money
    [13:29] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Why does it matter what you consider a rogue? thekirbyfake, leader of UOKMB, said himself that they are rogues and were going to go rogue on someone.
    [13:29] <Mandolus> ok but kirby flat out admitted that they were going to go rogue on someone, their intention was to rogue out and burn their warchests then quit
    [13:30] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> They did not however do the first move
    [13:30] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> they were hit by GOONS
    [13:30] <nippy[GOONS]> alright, I'm skipping out on this. I can't conduct actual diplomacy if there's a crowd of people puffing chests.
    [13:30] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> they may have chosen someone else to rogue
    03[13:30] * nippy[GOONS] () has left #Peggy
    01[13:30] <Sardonic[GOONS]> What part of "none of this matters" are you people not getting.
    03[13:30] * dalstrs () has joined #Peggy
    03[13:30] * dalstrs was kicked by Peggy_Sue|UPN (Peggy_Sue|UPN)
    03[13:30] * dalstrs () has joined #Peggy
    01[13:30] <Sardonic[GOONS]> they are at war with us, we will continue to attack them until we get our money
    [13:30] <Beefspari[GOONS]> The raid happened two months before all of UOKMB declared onus. They never made any attempts at diplomacy or discussing the raid.
    [13:30] <NakedTime[uPN]> you expect us to bend over and take it balls deep cause you say so???
    [13:30] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> who are you dalstrs
    [13:31] <Beefspari[GOONS]> He's GOONS gov
    01[13:31] <Sardonic[GOONS]> yes, I do. Because we are in the right here.
    [13:31] <NakedTime[uPN]> in your view you are
    [13:31] <Beefspari[GOONS]> NakedTime, if you don't want to pay to take in people who were just involved in a nuclear war with another alliance, then don't accept them into yours.
    [13:31] <NakedTime[uPN]> but there is more then one view, a legit middle ground should be involved
    [13:31] <Mandolus> but they never tried to resolve anything diplomatically, they waited months and then declared a self-admitted rogue war
    [13:31] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Nippy had the best angle to take here. To talk nicely to one another
    [13:31] <dalstrs> Frankly I think 15 mil is the middle ground, we got 90 mil for other nuke rogues
    [13:32] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I think 15m is a good middle-ground considering we usually ask for 90m for stuff Methrage does and the UOKMB guys probably did hundreds of millions in all the nukes they threw.
    [13:32] <NakedTime[uPN]> there is nothing that has occured in CN that says members leaving an AA have to pay reps after a war... only people who have kept there AA were ever held to reps
    [13:32] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> did you see my last pm to you Beef?
    [13:32] <NakedTime[uPN]> do you know of an example showing otherwise?
    [13:32] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Exactly Naked
    [13:32] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> that is the trouble in part
    [13:32] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> GOONS does not see UOKMB as an alliance
    [13:33] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> therefore members leaving in peace mode during war are not treated the way the rest of the planet would treat them
    [13:33] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> now
    [13:33] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Beef,
    [13:33] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> did you read my last query to you?\
    [13:33] <Beefspari[GOONS]> That's bull, they can't just nuke rogue on us and then change AAs and avoid all responsibility. I doubt you'll find many people who agree.
    [13:33] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> [11:39] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> Would you take this suggestion to Sardonic and your gov please?
    [13:33] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> [11:40] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> for the 3 UOKMB nations we have, we agreed to pay 15 million for two, .. for the third how about add up there infra costs for what remains and pay it to ZI
    [13:33] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> That is not bull.
    [13:34] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> It is your opinion of a war. You look at them as not an alliance
    [13:34] <Mandolus> Peggy_Sue|UPN, what do you think about the fact that UOKMB themselves admit to being rogues?
    [13:34] <Beefspari[GOONS]> The only thing that matters is you're accepting enemies of ours. If you want them that badly, then you can pay for their mistakes. If not, then don't accept them.
    [13:34] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> they did not rogue on GOONS in the first place
    [13:34] <NakedTime[uPN]> that is a fair middle ground, considering we both have such separate views and both willing to back them
    [13:34] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I don't see any point in discussing this further.
    [13:34] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> goons hit them pre emptively
    [13:34] <cora|usn|> do they admit on being I meant to type rogue but typed rouge insteads on GOONS speciffcally
    [13:34] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Pay for their mistakes, or give them back to us.
    [13:34] <Beefspari[GOONS]> You can answer by Friday.
    [13:34] <tanglerat> I've never admitted that!
    03[13:34] * Beefspari[GOONS] () has left #Peggy
    [13:34] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> read my <removed> querry Beef
    [13:34] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> I pasted it here too
    [13:34] <cora|usn|> otherwise it looks lot like GOONS setting themselves ip as the police force of CN
    [13:35] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> <removed>
    [13:35] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Sardonic
    01[13:35] <Sardonic[GOONS]> We will get our justice. Be it in money or their flesh.
    01[13:35] <Sardonic[GOONS]> what is your decision
    [13:35] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> how can people talk when Beef just cuts out with a last word like it is law
    [13:35] <NakedTime[uPN]> were offering a middle ground
    01[13:35] <Sardonic[GOONS]> and we're not having it
    [13:35] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> did you read my <removed> log paste
    01[13:35] <Sardonic[GOONS]> the truth is not "somewhere in the middle"
    [13:35] <NakedTime[uPN]> we wont be bent over in this matter
    [13:36] <dalstrs> so by your logic, I can form a small alliance, declare on upn, launch nules for a week, then go to another alliance and not be persued by upn?
    [13:36] <NakedTime[uPN]> and were not someone you can just walk over cause your view is the only on planet bob
    [13:36] <NakedTime[uPN]> we offered a good middle ground
    01[13:36] <Sardonic[GOONS]> what are you going to do? attack our members when we take our justice from our valid war targets?
    [13:36] <Canfor|UPN> if they launched nukes first Dal that I would agree with you
    [13:36] <Canfor|UPN> but you hit them first
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> STOP
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> read this
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> [17:39] <Beefspari[GOONS]> When's better?
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> [17:40] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I will ask for a time tomorrow
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> [17:40] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> evening hours
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> [11:39] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> Hello
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> [11:39] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> Would you take this suggestion to Sardonic and your gov please?
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> [11:40] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> for the 3 UOKMB nations we have, we agreed to pay 15 million for two, .. for the third how about add up there infra costs for what remains and pay it to ZI
    [13:36] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Read that last <removed> line <removed>
    01[13:36] <Sardonic[GOONS]> yes I see your compromise, and we're not interested
    01[13:36] <Sardonic[GOONS]> 15m for each
    [13:36] <dalstrs> if it is 15 mil to zi then we will agree
    [13:37] <NakedTime[uPN]> you get there remaining infra cost in reps
    [13:37] <NakedTime[uPN]> why not just have them delete there infra to ZI then?
    [13:37] <NakedTime[uPN]> then we'll buy it back
    01[13:37] <Sardonic[GOONS]> not interested, 15m or they will be obliterated.
    [13:37] <NakedTime[uPN]> or were you guys gunna try and PZI them after all that between you and NPO over that ugly procedure? <- what lol
    [13:38] <dalstrs> not pzi eog
    01[13:38] <Sardonic[GOONS]> it's not PZI
    01[13:38] <Sardonic[GOONS]> we can win that debate, don't be foolish enough to start it <- this is true, it's not PZI if they have an easy out, in this case, the mercy board.
    [13:38] <NakedTime[uPN]> really how does it work then
    [13:38] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Foolish? Debate? You don't debate. You dictate
    [13:38] <Canfor|UPN> ok... you can chase a nation in a alliance that you decided to start a war with?
    [13:38] <NakedTime[uPN]> wait I wanna hear this
    [13:38] <Canfor|UPN> after you decided to start the alliance
    [13:39] <NakedTime[uPN]> how does EoG have any difference from PZI
    [13:39] <Canfor|UPN> wait let me rephraise that
    01[13:39] <Sardonic[GOONS]> look bottom line, if you refuse to pay, we will attack the former UOKMB members. If you try to stop us, our allies (and us when we get done with the runts were fighting now) will demolish you
    01[13:39] <Sardonic[GOONS]> there is no debate
    [13:39] <Canfor|UPN> sounds like a threat
    01[13:39] <Sardonic[GOONS]> only a threat if you intend to defend them
    [13:39] <NakedTime[uPN]> me thinks there doing PZI too
    [13:39] <Canfor|UPN> I never had a opinion on GOONs
    [13:40] <Canfor|UPN> but I've made one up now
    [13:40] <NakedTime[uPN]> CN community will call it PZI regardless of what you call it after screen shots and logs of this... If in practice it is the same, the name dont matter
    01[13:40] <Sardonic[GOONS]> that's great dude, just give us our money and we can be on our way, and you can have your terrible new members.
    [13:40] <Canfor|UPN> Sar... answer what I asked you in Private... I'll ask it again here
    [13:41] <Canfor|UPN> so if I went I meant to type rogue but typed rouge instead on GOONs cause I didn't recognize them as a alliance,,, then that member went to a alliance that I do recognize, I would have every right to continue to attack them?
    [13:41] <Canfor|UPN> or extort the alliance?
    [13:41] <Canfor|UPN> after I started the war in the first place
    [13:41] <Canfor|UPN> for
    [13:41] <Canfor|UPN> "nuclear Testing" purposes
    01[13:41] <Sardonic[GOONS]> first off it's GOONS not GOONs
    [13:42] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> that is what happened. yes
    [13:42] <Canfor|UPN> sry my mistake
    01[13:42] <Sardonic[GOONS]> secondly, if you have balls enough, yeah
    [13:42] <NakedTime[uPN]> what is EoG
    [13:42] <NakedTime[uPN]> what is the practice
    [13:42] <Canfor|UPN> or if you think ur untouchable
    [13:42] <dalstrs> Honestly we don't care what you think, you have our terms, you can accept them or not.
    [13:42] <NakedTime[uPN]> what is EoG
    [13:42] <Canfor|UPN> how long till they expire?
    01[13:42] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I'm done talking about this, consult our constitution if you want to know what EoG is
    01[13:42] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I have class in 10 minutes anyway
    [13:42] <NakedTime[uPN]> link>
    Now I'll be the first to admit, I might have been a bit harsh, but when dealing with stupidity such as this can be extremely grating, and I was having a bad day. I simply could not believe that there was any debate about this, that somehow we were the bad guys for not wanting to let people who rogued on us go in peace.
    I went to class and came back later, I had heard from other gov that the issue was being resolved. I later obtained the logs of what happened after I left, sadly it got a whole lot more hilarious after I left, I will highlight the good parts.
    [14:42] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I have class in 10 minutes anyway
    [14:42] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Enemy of GOONS eh
    [14:42] * Sardonic[GOONS] () has left #Peggy
    [14:43] <NakedTime[uPN]> good to know
    [14:43] <Mandolus> here
    [14:44] <Mandolus> http://cngoons.com/Board/index.php?topic=3031.0
    [14:44] <Mandolus> for your convenience
    [14:44] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> we've done all we can here.
    [14:44] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> let's close this room
    [14:44] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Sardonic lays down his law
    [14:44] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> and this is the picture of the new Pandora's Box bloc
    [14:44] <Mandolus> I just wanted to know why you guys wanted to take them in D:
    [14:45] * cora|usn| () has left #Peggy
    [14:45] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> I jsut want GOONs and friends to stop destroying nations
    [14:45] <NakedTime[uPN]> <removed> this <removeD>
    [14:45] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> yep
    [14:45] * @Peggy_Sue|UPN () has left #Peggy
    [14:45] <NakedTime[uPN]> I read it
    [14:45] <Mandolus> well I ate 5 nukes from UOKMB nations
    [14:45] <NakedTime[uPN]> there is no difference between it and PZI
    [14:45] <NakedTime[uPN]> not a damn thing
    [14:45] <Mandolus> it's not that hard for someone to get off EoG if they want to
    [14:46] <NakedTime[uPN]> not according to your wiki
    [14:46] <Mandolus> TheKirbyFake had a very reasonable term for his peace
    [14:46] <NakedTime[uPN]> they can be kept on for any reason
    [14:46] <Mandolus> he was almost granted it but he didn't bother to do it
    [14:46] <NakedTime[uPN]> also expecting nations as small as there's to pay such a high price is rediculous
    [14:46] <Mandolus> his peace terms had no cost whatsoever
    [14:46] <NakedTime[uPN]> your only asking that cause you think well bend over and pay it to ya
    [14:46] <Mandolus> give me a second here
    [14:46] <dalstrs> for nations that can't afford reps we usually give other terms
    [14:47] <NakedTime[uPN]> so what cause they applied for a bigger alliance there reps grow?
    [14:47] <Mandolus> Kirby asked us for peace, and his terms were as follows:
    [14:48] <Mandolus> Draw an 18 panel comic on two different subjects, or make GOONS trading cards
    [14:48] <dalstrs> no, they never came to us for peace, and the one who did didn't do the terms. If you are bailing them out then that is the price
    [14:48] <Mandolus> He didn't have to pay us a dime to get peace but he never bothered to complete the terms
    [14:48] <Mandolus> and Kirby was the ringleader
    [14:49] <NakedTime[uPN]> they don;t have to come to you for peace, there AA was warring with you not individual members...
    [14:49] <NakedTime[uPN]> plus you are asking for more reps because they are applying for an alliance that could afford it?
    [14:49] <Mandolus> He asked for individual peace specifically, he had the option to request peace for the whole AA
    [14:49] <dalstrs> It's like talking to a brick wall mandolus
    [14:49] <NakedTime[uPN]> if you asked for something more reasonable we would be able to find a diplomatic middle ground
    [14:50] <NakedTime[uPN]> like paying for there infra.... that is in all respects ZI and what rogues get
    [14:50] <NakedTime[uPN]> so we are diplomatic enough to take your view of them being a rogue into the situation
    [14:50] * Peggy_Sue|UPN () has joined #Peggy
    [14:50] <dalstrs> remember when someone paid for methrage's peace it was 90 million, we are being generous at 15 million. These guys have the same status to us as methrage does
    [14:50] <Mandolus> Peggy I'm going to paste this for you because it's pretty important
    [14:50] <NakedTime[uPN]> asking for more then that cause there EoG is essentually related to PZI more then anything and in no way shows them as being treated as normal rogues by you guys
    [14:50] <Canfor|UPN> how... when you guys started the war?
    [14:51] <Mandolus> <Mandolus> Kirby asked us for peace, and his terms were as follows:
    [14:51] <Mandolus> <Mandolus> Draw an 18 panel comic on two different subjects, or make GOONS trading cards
    [14:51] <tanglerat> Ahem - just for the record
    [14:51] <NakedTime[uPN]> your trying to make some cash cause you think we are just gunna fold
    [14:51] <Mandolus> NakedTime[uPN], Kirby had a chance to get off EoG without paying a cent in reps, all he had to do was make a comic or some trading cards in MSPaint
    [14:51] <dalstrs> actually we don't care if you pay or not
    [14:52] <NakedTime[uPN]> bet if I made an OWF post asking people the difference between your practice of EoG and compare it to PZI that NPO threatened you with most of CN will see them as no different
    [14:52] <tanglerat> I never considered myself or my alliance as roques. We were pre-emptively attacked and nuked based on hearsay, and we fought back.
    [14:52] <Mandolus> and he was specifically given drawing terms because he had made comics in the past
    [14:52] <tanglerat> That is my reality. Yours may differ.
    [14:52] <NakedTime[uPN]> you get no peace and keep getting hit till either you quit or do some crazy <removed> we ask you to do
    [14:52] <Mandolus> <Mandolus> and he was specifically given drawing terms because he had made comics in the past
    [14:53] <Mandolus> it wasnt some outlandish thing, it was something he clearly already enjoyed doing
    [14:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> 18 pannels is some work
    [14:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> in general rogues are asked for reps, or ZI's
    [14:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> not both
    [14:53] <Mandolus> he did hundreds of millions of dongs in damages
    [14:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> that is generally refered to as PZI
    [14:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> so?
    [14:53] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> in a war you started
    [14:53] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> you know
    [14:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> we;ve had that done by rogues
    [14:53] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> if you start something you don't blame the victim
    [14:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> still we let them go with ZI
    [14:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> or reps
    [14:54] <Canfor|UPN> and on top of that
    [14:54] <NakedTime[uPN]> EoG IS IN ALL RESPECT PZI
    [14:54] <Canfor|UPN> how did they get the oppurtunity to get to Peace Mode?
    [14:54] <Mandolus> they did get nuked first, yes, but they never bothered to approach us diplomatically, they just waited a few months and launched an attack
    [14:54] <NakedTime[uPN]> cause they failed at staggering
    [14:54] <NakedTime[uPN]> if you get nuked that tends to end diplomacy
    [14:54] <Mandolus> the diplomacy never started
    [14:54] <dalstrs> You aren't going to change our minds. our terms are what they are. I believe beefspari said you have till friday to answer. Nothing else needs to be said until them
    [15:01] * Peggy_Sue|UPN is now known as Peggy_Sue|AFK
    [15:01] <NakedTime[uPN]> well at least we see eye to eye
    [15:03] <Mandolus> NakedTime[uPN], we aren't about PZI
    [15:03] <Mandolus> there are generally two ways off EoG - pay us or entertain us
    [15:03] <Mandolus> drawing a comic in MSpaint takes 5-10 minutes max
    [15:03] <tanglerat> Here, mandalous, tell me this:
    [15:05] <tanglerat> when you guys got wind of what uokmb were discussing internally, why didn't you try diplomacy at that point, rather that nukes?
    [15:05] <Mandolus> I can't answer that as I am not privy to that information
    [15:05] <Mandolus> but I think the more important question is why UOKMB didn't bother diplomacy in the first place
    [15:07] <tanglerat> we didn't try diplomacy because we got nuked. Seemed like a simple enough declaration of intent to us.
    [15:08] <tanglerat> Since you're not privy to that info, perhaps you could be a dear and ask around your alliance mates? cos i'd be fascinated to know.
    [15:08] <NakedTime[uPN]> that is PZI
    [15:08] <NakedTime[uPN]> these nations cant afford to pay 15 million each
    [15:08] <Mandolus> then spend 10 minutes drawing a comic
    [15:08] <NakedTime[uPN]> standard for CN is ZI or reps... you don't get more then that
    [15:09] <NakedTime[uPN]> sure you let them all off the hook I'll draw you a funny comic
    [15:09] <Canfor|UPN> count me in for a second comic
    [15:09] <NakedTime[uPN]> past that what your asking is far outside the standard for CN in how rogues or enemy alliance members are dealt with
    [15:10] <Mandolus> we only allow members to seek peace for themselves or alliance leaders to seek peace for the alliance, as far as I know
    [15:11] <Mandolus> but hey I'm not the High War Adjuticator
    [15:13] <Mandolus> but I do believe that this was already discussed with our gov
    [15:14] <NakedTime[uPN]> point I am making is CN community will not know the difference between the current GOONS from NPO a year or so ago
    [15:14] <Mandolus> we don't put people on EoG for just anything
    [15:14] <NakedTime[uPN]> your terms are to the point of ridiculousness that PZI is related too
    [15:15] <Mandolus> generally the only way to get on the list is to go rogue on us or aid someone we are at war with
    [15:15] <NakedTime[uPN]> wars against another alliance and even against rogues don't warrent PZI
    [15:15] <NakedTime[uPN]> If I were to call for PZI on a rogue, the WHOLE cn community would come bashing me, and try to have me hung
    [15:15] <Mandolus> there is a very easy way to avoid becoming an EoG
    [15:15] <NakedTime[uPN]> PZI and method like it are unacceptable
    [15:15] <NakedTime[uPN]> same with PZI, don't attack someone
    [15:16] <Mandolus> the difference between us is that you guys seem to think drawing a picture or writing a poem or short story is a big deal and we don't
    [15:16] <NakedTime[uPN]> fact is, if it is PZI like there is no justification minus them maybe hacking your forums to deletion... maybe then
    [15:16] <NakedTime[uPN]> your not asking that though
    [15:16] <Mandolus> our terms are honestly not supposed to be demeaning or insulting
    [15:16] <NakedTime[uPN]> your asking for more money in reps then each member is worth in infra
    [15:16] <Mandolus> it's just entertainment for everyone involved
    [15:16] <NakedTime[uPN]> greater then ZI = PZI
    [15:17] <Mandolus> Permanent ZI = PZI
    [15:17] <Mandolus> NakedTime[uPN], ONE (1) UOKMB naion came to us seeking peace
    [15:17] <NakedTime[uPN]> ahhh so what NPO wanted from you guys wasn't PZI?
    [15:17] <Mandolus> he was given very reasonable non money terms
    [15:17] <Mandolus> he rejected them
    [15:17] <NakedTime[uPN]> they just wanted to keep you at a low infra till you gave them the ridiculous reps they wanted
    [15:18] <Mandolus> you must be talking about Neutral Shoving?
    [15:18] <Mandolus> different alliance, and before my time
    [15:18] <NakedTime[uPN]> paying more then your infra is worth is PZI
    [15:18] <NakedTime[uPN]> you get reps or ZI... that is the standard
    [15:18] <NakedTime[uPN]> we offered to pay all there infra costs, which ends up being more for you anyway since you don't have to spend a penny bring it down
    [15:19] <Mandolus> sorry if we don't want to be the standard CN alliance same as everyone else
    [15:19] <NakedTime[uPN]> at one point in time goons cried out for help because of these things
    [15:19] <NakedTime[uPN]> and CN came together and destroyed NPO and it's hegemony
    [15:19] <Mandolus> again, I'm going to try to explain, that our mercy terms are not supposed to be horrible demeaning things
    [15:20] <NakedTime[uPN]> oh I would be ok with something funny like giving graphics
    [15:20] <Mandolus> it's just a fun little creative activity that entertains everyone involved
    [15:20] <NakedTime[uPN]> but the current terms are simply extreme given the situation and the normal diplomatic resolution it leads too
    [15:21] <NakedTime[uPN]> 15 mill per member, when on average there infra is worth around 6 mill each.... no happening that way
    [15:21] <NakedTime[uPN]> we even bent and offered to pay 15 x 2, and just the infra on the last one
    [15:21] <tanglerat> except for the guy who fees horribly demeaned
    [15:21] <Mandolus> I had to do a mercy term once you know
    [15:21] <Mandolus> it's really not that bad
    [15:21] <NakedTime[uPN]> we did our best for a diplomatic resolution and hope for a better resolution then conflict
    [15:21] <Mandolus> and generally terms for GOONS members are far harsher than those for non GOONS
    [15:22] <NakedTime[uPN]> how much did you have to pay?
    [15:22] <Mandolus> nothing
    [15:22] <NakedTime[uPN]> well then there is a major difference between you situation and the current one
    [15:22] <Mandolus> I had to make an amazon.com shopping list worth $100,000 +/- $100
    [15:22] <Mandolus> of nothing but worthless crap
    [15:23] <dalstrs> it was pretty epic
    [15:23] <NakedTime[uPN]> sounds more reasonable then our current terms
    [15:23] <Mandolus> your terms are because you are seeking peace for them
    [15:23] <NakedTime[uPN]> give us reasonable terms and we will hash it out, but currently it's looking to much like PZI and we will never stand for that
    [15:24] <Mandolus> Kirby came to us and was given non monetary terms but he rejected them
    [15:24] <NakedTime[uPN]> did you get something other then peace for your terms that weren't cash?
    [15:24] <Mandolus> no, sorry, you misunderstand me
    [15:24] <Mandolus> GOONS nations are forced to do mercy board terms when they screw up, I wasn't at war
    [15:24] <NakedTime[uPN]> kirby is not our problem now, he is not a UPN member
    [15:24] <Mandolus> and they are generally harsher than the terms we give for non GOONS
    [15:25] <NakedTime[uPN]> something funny would be nice, however the cash terms are unacceptable as they stand since they go far beyond there individual worth in infrastructor
    [15:25] <Mandolus> see, we don't make anyone do something we wouldn't do ourselves
    [15:26] <NakedTime[uPN]> which in general shows you looking for more then standard reps, and more then standard ZI... which in general is considered PZI...
    [15:26] <Mandolus> 15m each is very reasonable
    [15:26] <NakedTime[uPN]> EoG and PZI are no different... make your attacker happy or he never stops attacking you
    [15:26] <Mandolus> we don't take rogues lightly
    [15:26] <NakedTime[uPN]> can you pay 15 million reasonably with 600 infra?
    [15:26] <NakedTime[uPN]> if they had around 4-5k infra I could see that
    [15:27] <Mandolus> we were offered $180m for the freedom of Kerberos Nexus
    [15:27] <NakedTime[uPN]> however at there level that cost is more then if they would have to spend if they deleted all there infra and started from ZI
    [15:27] <NakedTime[uPN]> lol that is retarded... 2 man AA was willing to pay that much
    [15:28] <NakedTime[uPN]> We'll fight a losing war before we will be bent over for 180 mill
    [15:28] <Mandolus> well we aren't asking you for 180 mil
    [15:28] <NakedTime[uPN]> nah your asking for 45 mill for about 10 mill worth of infra
    [15:28] <NakedTime[uPN]> still fairly outlandish
    [15:29] <NakedTime[uPN]> PZI
    [15:29] <Mandolus> any of them are welcome to seek peace for themselves at our Mercy Board
    [15:29] <NakedTime[uPN]> and if it goes to the OWF that is pretty much how the community would see it. Would see it as the bigger alliance trying might makes right to get there way
    [15:30] <dalstrs> http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91933&view=findpost&p=2446737
    [15:30] <dalstrs> they declared because they were getting bored
    [15:30] <dalstrs> that makes them rogues
    [15:30] <dalstrs> end of story
    [15:31] <Mandolus> I wanted to find that post but I was too lazy :3
    [15:32] <NakedTime[uPN]> rogues get ZI or reps, not more then that
    [15:32] <NakedTime[uPN]> that is called PZI
    [15:32] <NakedTime[uPN]> dont matter if you call it EoG, CN will see it as PZI
    [15:32] <NakedTime[uPN]> yes and he does admit to himself going rogue... thats cool
    [15:32] <NakedTime[uPN]> he is not in the upn lol
    [15:32] <Mandolus> PZI is Permanent Zero Infrastructure
    [15:33] <NakedTime[uPN]> or anything exceeding ZI
    [15:33] <Mandolus> what about "write a short story for freedom" is permanent?
    [15:33] <Mandolus> no, you're trying to twist the definition of something to what you want it to fit
    [15:33] <NakedTime[uPN]> nah asking for more cash then there infra is worth is akin to PZI
    [15:33] <Mandolus> we aren't asking THEM for 15m each
    [15:33] <NakedTime[uPN]> I don't care about what terms the guy that isn't in our alliance got offered
    [15:33] <Mandolus> we're demanding 15m each from YOU
    [15:33] <NakedTime[uPN]> he is no concern of mine
    [15:34] <NakedTime[uPN]> ahhh so if they just go ZI you will be done with them then?
    [15:34] <tanglerat> no, we formed uokmb because we were getting bored. We declared on goons cos they nuked us
    [15:34] <tanglerat> here, dalstrs, I'll ask you the same question i asked mandolus:
    [15:34] <tanglerat> when you guys got wind of what uokmb were discussing internally, why didn't you try diplomacy at that point, rather that nukes?
    [15:34] <Mandolus> like I said if they want individual peace they have to go through the normal channel of our mercy board
    [15:35] <NakedTime[uPN]> you get ZI or reps from rogues
    [15:35] <Mandolus> if you want their peace it's 15m each
    [15:35] <NakedTime[uPN]> not both... that tends to be seen as PZI
    [15:35] <dalstrs> I wasn't in gov at the time, but i assume the answer is we like war, and if you have a beef with us then you should come talk to us about it
    [15:35] <NakedTime[uPN]> nah, they should be able to delete there infra to 0 and be free
    [15:36] <NakedTime[uPN]> standard punishment for rogues...
    [15:36] <Mandolus> GOONS isn't a standard alliance
    [15:36] <NakedTime[uPN]> oh what was NPO then?
    [15:37] <NakedTime[uPN]> is it fair what they demanded from GOONS?
    [15:37] <Mandolus> Neutral Shoving was a different alliance I can't comment on that
    [15:37] <NakedTime[uPN]> or are they a standard alliance and not permitted to for such things.
    [15:37] <NakedTime[uPN]> ya... didn't think there would be an answer there
    [15:37] <Mandolus> I'm sure if NPO demanded that Neutral Shoving write a bunch of short stories for freedom most of them would be fine with that
    [15:38] <Mandolus> I wouldn't see a problem personally
    [15:38] <NakedTime[uPN]> how about 45 mill for every 10 mill of infra in your alliance, or not be let off the target list
    [15:38] <NakedTime[uPN]> think they have a term for that
    [15:38] <NakedTime[uPN]> it's called PZI
    [15:39] <Mandolus> you're right it is, now how is that the same as our EoG terms?
    [15:40] <dalstrs> they question is why we should let them go easily when they have shown they have no issue declaring on goons and nuking us. if the terms are easy, they will just build back up and do it again. That is what methrage did
    [15:40] <tanglerat> dalstrs, can i suggest you make enquiries at your end as to the circumstances regarding the start of all of this?
    [15:40] <tanglerat> We hadn't decided on a course of action against anyone, never mind goons, before we got nuked. A diplomatic contact from goons would easily have shifted our focus.
    [15:40] <Mandolus> Kirby's post seems to indicate differently
    [15:42] <NakedTime[uPN]> thedestro does that too
    [15:42] <NakedTime[uPN]> couple months ago I believe
    [15:42] <NakedTime[uPN]> ZI is the punishment for rogues
    [15:43] <NakedTime[uPN]> past that is just behaving like NPO did a year and a half ago
    [15:43] <Mandolus> NakedTime[uPN], you're basically saying "this is the standard and anything that deviates from that is PZI and exactly like NPO" right?
    [15:44] <NakedTime[uPN]> no, anything passed the norm of what a nation in that situation can pay based on there infra cost
    [15:44] <NakedTime[uPN]> or the cost of them being put the ZI
    [15:45] <NakedTime[uPN]> say... IF I beat your nation down to 500 infra, then said you have to pay me 15 million for peace
    [15:45] <NakedTime[uPN]> while fighting me, it will take you forever to come up with the money, it would be cheaper to just go to ZI
    [15:46] <NakedTime[uPN]> but if your still kept on a targeting list after the point of ZI that is what is refereed too as PZI
    [15:46] <Mandolus> that's not the same thing, that would be like if I rogued on you, got beat down to 500 infra, and then went to Legion and you demanded Legion pay 15m
    [15:46] <NakedTime[uPN]> asking for more then they are worth as individuals is the equivalent
    [15:46] <NakedTime[uPN]> that would be the same situation
    [15:46] <tanglerat> ....er, because some of us are in another alliance now, and we follow their orders?
    [15:46] <NakedTime[uPN]> an out of portion request
    [15:47] <Mandolus> I get what you're saying but you're kind of ignoring a few facts here
    [15:47] <dalstrs> tanglerat: what difference does it make, you attacked us, if you had a problem with us you should have come to us. your groups post make it clear you all were going to attack someone.
    [15:47] <NakedTime[uPN]> we would either ask for the nation back to ZI or request his infra in reps rounded to the highest 3 mill
    [15:48] <Mandolus> we don't care if he gets to ZI or not
    [15:48] <NakedTime[uPN]> requesting more then ZI is worth is ridiculous
    [15:48] <dalstrs> [14:48:06] <Mandolus> we don't care if he gets to ZI or not
    [15:49] <dalstrs> this is why it is not a pzi list
    [15:49] <dalstrs> eog's don't always have wars
    [15:49] <NakedTime[uPN]> interesting, but if there on a continual attack list then they can just be attacked till they quit the game
    [15:49] <dalstrs> this is how these guys got to apply to you guys with out having a war
    [15:49] <Mandolus> until they bother to seek peace
    [15:49] <NakedTime[uPN]> so it is essentually build till your worth our newest members raiding you till you quit
    [15:49] <dalstrs> but they are free game for anyone in our alliance that wants to attack them
    [15:49] <NakedTime[uPN]> that sounds like PZI
    [15:50] <tanglerat> dalstrs, that can be turned around: YOU attacked US, if you had a problem with us you shoud have come to us. Why didn't you? Heard a rumour, couldn't be bothered to check it out, they're only 8 players anyway, what's the worst that could happen? Attack them, nuke them, don't even bother talking to them.
    [15:50] <dalstrs> you aren't an alliance, you were a tech raid
    [15:51] <NakedTime[uPN]> that ridiculous that people tech raided are expected to bend over
    [15:51] <Mandolus> there are ways to get off EoG but it's not just "ok I'm done now here's the 500k my infra is worth"
    [15:52] <NakedTime[uPN]> ya that's called PZI...
    [15:52] <Mandolus> no it's called post on the mercy board and show us you want to get off EoG
    [15:52] <NakedTime[uPN]> I've got more then enough evidence in these logs for people to see this for what it is
    [15:52] <Mandolus> everyone knows what EoG is
    [15:52] <NakedTime[uPN]> then do what you say or be continually attacked?
    [15:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> hmmm smells like PZI... looks like it... bet it tastes like it too...
    [15:53] <Mandolus> hey guess what, if you don't want to write a poem you can just not rogue on GOONS
    [15:53] <NakedTime[uPN]> ZI or reps... that is pretty much it...
    [15:53] <dalstrs> all I hear is a bunch of "waaaa, meanie goons not giving me what I want!"
    [15:54] <NakedTime[uPN]> all I hear is "waaa UPN wont bend over for us cause were bigger"
    [15:54] <dalstrs> you don't get it
    [15:54] <NakedTime[uPN]> wow... sounds like NPO and GOONS a year and a half ago... <removed> go figure that one
    [15:54] <dalstrs> we don't care if you pay
    [15:54] <NakedTime[uPN]> oh I get it
    [15:54] <NakedTime[uPN]> like I said before at least we see eye to eye
    [15:54] <NakedTime[uPN]> don;t mean we agree with each other, we just know were each other stands
    [15:55] <Mandolus> NakedTime[uPN], the 15m each is for UPN to get UOKMB peace, not for UOKMB to get peace
    [15:55] <dalstrs> I don't believe goons and NPO had a war a year ago
    02[15:55] * tanglerat () Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client )
    [15:55] <NakedTime[uPN]> there was something about GOONS being PZI'd and NPO getting some crazy amount of reps for threatening it
    [15:56] <NakedTime[uPN]> Karma war I believe.
    [15:56] <Mandolus> GOONS didn't exist around Karma?
    [15:56] <dalstrs> GOONS have been around under a year and a half
    [15:56] <NakedTime[uPN]> the current one
    [15:56] <dalstrs> we havethe old ones disbanded about 3 years ago
    [15:56] <NakedTime[uPN]> same thing in most people's eye's
    [15:57] <dalstrs> well they need to get their eyes checked then
    [15:57] <NakedTime[uPN]> don't we all, reality is only viable from one point and no point is the same... only natural there is so much conflict I guess
    [15:58] <NakedTime[uPN]> anyway, have a nice day. Sure we will finish these talks soon
    [15:58] <Mandolus> Neutral Shoving was long gone by Karma and was a different alliance
    PZI, NPO, Rogues oh my! The misconception that the EoG list is a PZI list lives on in the minds of the deranged. What could possibly be permanent about having to do a comic or short story for peace? Nothing! It is far easier than having to shell out the megabucks most alliances force people to pay (of course we still have to reach monetary arrangements for people unwilling to do mercy).
    I received a message from peggy later on.
    [21:56] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> hello
    01[21:59] <Sardonic[GOONS]> hello, I believe beefspari worked out a payment plan?
    [21:59] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I don't know where that offer of 1 million 'reps' came from. it is not acceptable.
    [22:00] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I told our nation to not take the aid
    [22:00] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> and I don't know who in our gov 'agreed' to it. would you happen to have a log?
    01[22:00] <Sardonic[GOONS]> no, I have no idea
    01[22:00] <Sardonic[GOONS]> it was probably the raided nation
    01[22:00] <Sardonic[GOONS]> who requested it
    01[22:00] <Sardonic[GOONS]> or something
    01[22:01] <Sardonic[GOONS]> you can sum the damages if you want a more concrete rep but at that level you're pretty much just burning daylight, no way it could have been more than 1m, or around it at least.
    01[22:19] <Sardonic[GOONS]> So have you reached a consensus?
    Here is where Peggy raised the false issue of the mis-sent 1m, and I ended it with what I said there instantly (or so I hoped anyway, as it was such a stupid non-issue). The members had arranged their own deal apparently behind both their government's backs. Peggy chose to believe that we were trying to weasel our way out of paying a higher amount, and was being pressured by the before blogged about idiots in the WCE.
    I messaged later on to follow up on the resolution, having heard of the ODN arrangement.
    01[23:08] <Sardonic[GOONS]> Okay so this is or is not resolved?
    01[23:09] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I don't need to tell you that any unprovoked attacks will be met with full retaliation, so I'm hoping we can just have everyone calm the hell down, peace out, and go on our merry ways.
    [23:09] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> oh stuff it
    [23:10] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> threatening me does nothing
    01[23:10] <Sardonic[GOONS]> I'm not threatening you, I'm telling you. This is over. Do not attack us.
    [23:10] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> we weren't going to
    [23:10] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> we would defend
    [23:10] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> but we were not going to aggress
    [23:10] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> unlike you
    01[23:11] <Sardonic[GOONS]> whatever
    [23:11] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> and don't talk to me that way and expect me to take it
    01[23:11] <Sardonic[GOONS]> You can leave the indignity at the door, you're lucky you have an ally as good as ODN.
    01[23:11] <Sardonic[GOONS]> you don't deserve an ally as good as them.
    [23:11] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> <removed> you'
    01[23:12] <Sardonic[GOONS]> whatever, just keep your nations off ours and this can be the last we talk for a good long while.
    One of my favorite logs from that day, really. I don't think I've had the opportunity to burn somebody as sickly as that before.
    Today all of this is history, highly amusing history.
    I received this from a friend:
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> UPN and goons were having a stand-off
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I refused to send the money while they are at war with Ninjas and Fnka
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> they demanded it anyway
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> ODN stepped in and said they'll send money to nations that aren't fighting and will monitor to be sure they don't fight
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> never ever believe that what you read on owf is the whole truth
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> or even half truth
    The truth is self evident my dear.
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> someone went into that coalition channel with the intent to spread the word
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> that always happens when one isn't careful who they invite in
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I didn't manage it
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I invited nobody in
    <Peggy_Sue|UPN> so it is not my baby to burp
    Just in case anyone needed any more evidence UPN was being put up to this.
    [00:01] <"X"> What do you think of PB
    [00:01] <"X">
    [00:01] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> that will be dangerous when you finish forming it
    [00:01] <"X"> What do you mean finish forming it?
    [00:02] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> is iFOK going to be in it?
    One of the larger problems with UPN is that it is run by somebody who appaently never has a complete set of information about anything.
    [00:04] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> ah. ok
    [00:04] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> there is a mystery about the 7tyh alliance
    [00:04] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> it is rumored that MK isn't going to be in now
    Ah yes, the legend of the 7tyh alliance, truly a great unsolved mythtry of our tyhme.
    [00:27] <"X"> WHat do you think of Schaterman
    [00:28] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> he has experience
    [00:28] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I don't know him well
    [00:28] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> RV was in TPF a while
    [00:28] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> but didn't stay long
    [00:28] <"X"> Ahh what you think of RV?
    [00:28] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> so I don't know him well either
    [00:29] <"X"> Hmm
    [00:29] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> seriously
    [00:29] <"X"> Anyone you dont like?
    [00:29] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> my TPF days give me more knowledge of world leaders than being on this side of the web recently
    Truly TPF is the community college of alliance leadership.
    Anyway, I hope everyone has enjoyed these logs, and the previous sets. Hopefully an incident will occur where I will be able to share more logs of this type in the future. Who knows? I might be able to post more sometime in the near future, nearer if you leak logs to me. Thank you and goodnight.
  10. Sardonic
    It recently came to my attention that there was a second, higher channel than #strategos. This channel, #redtech was where the higher government members of the WCE coalition briefly assembled. The channel did not last long, however, as the coalition was disbanded for the reasons highlighted in the last WCE entries.
    Let the backpedaling begin!
    Session Start: Tue Oct 05
    Session Ident: #redtech
    [23:34] * Now talking in #redtech
    [23:34] * Topic is '1 head of state, 1 other gov'
    [23:34] * Set by Schattenmann on Wed Oct 06 00:29:30
    Naturally, Schattenmann led the coalition in this channel too.
    [23:35] <~Schattenmann> It's good to discuss, but that's not what's happening in the other room anymore
    [23:35] <HeroofTime55> Yes
    [23:35] <MyWorld[DT]> yup
    [23:35] <~Schattenmann> If we go the UPN route, it's in UPN's court
    [23:35] <HeroofTime55> Let RV in gere, he's NSO #2 and a smart guy
    Here you can see them assembling the channel. RV was a natural choice. I don't know why they let ~HeroofTime55~ in though.
    [23:35] <bud> look i agree goons needs to be rolled but it does no one any good if we throw ourselves at the wall only to be beaten down and leave them in a better spot than they are now
    Bud, laying down some facts. His presence is much more pronounced here than in the other channel, and he voices a very strong desire to have us rolled.
    [23:36] * Rebel_Virginia () has joined #redtech
    [23:36] <Rebel_Virginia> What is this?
    [23:36] <~Schattenmann> We're selling tech
    [23:36] <~Schattenmann> 3m/75
    Schattenmann makes a funny.
    [23:36] <HeroofTime55> My original plan, before any of this blew up this big, was to set a honeypot micro on red
    [23:36] <Atlashill[invicta]> Why red?
    [23:37] <HeroofTime55> Because of the safari
    [23:37] <MyWorld[DT]> level head talk about this with out the cross debates.
    [23:37] <~Schattenmann> Woah woah, hold on. Am I missing anyone
    I will never get tired of the hilarity that is the idea of the honeypot micro, even if we attacked it, we would never agree to unreasonable reparations.
    [23:37] <HeroofTime55> You take 5-7 red nations, 8-10k with no nukes
    [23:37] <HeroofTime55> It's the perfect target for GOONS
    [23:38] <Atlashill[invicta]> Problem, though, is that it's on red.
    [23:38] <Atlashill[invicta]> Us and NPO.
    [23:38] <Atlashill[invicta]> We come to their rescue, and the sympathy factor might not be in there.
    So naive.
    [23:38] <Poyples> I mean, the chances of them hitting a honey pot are just as likely as them screwing up another different raid
    [23:38] <Biff[CoJ]> The safari doesn't really have steam anymore
    [23:38] <Thor|NoR> NPO has to be at the end of our line
    [23:38] <Atlashill[invicta]> Right.
    [23:38] <Thor|NoR> not the beginning
    [23:38] <HeroofTime55> Make it an STA protectorate
    Oh, and another interesting thing of note, another NoR named Thor is in this one. I don't know his position, but I'm sure it's quite high up there if he's in this channel.
    [23:39] * Random () has joined #redtech
    [23:39] * ChanServ sets mode: +b
    [23:39] * Random was kicked by ChanServ (You are not permitted to be on this channel.)
    [23:39] <Cookavich[NpO]> random is liaison
    [23:39] <MrWhiteOcUK> ffffffffff
    [23:39] <MrWhiteOcUK> let random in
    Enter Random, the new NpO emperor, not the grandest entry though. Interesting that MrWhite would use the traditional GOONS 'ffffffffff' though.
    [23:39] <Atlashill[invicta]> If it's an STA protectorate, MK would have to think twice about defending GOONS.
    [23:40] <HeroofTime55> Yes
    [23:40] <Atlashill[invicta]> Because they'd be going against one of their longest-standing friends.
    [23:40] <HeroofTime55> And people don't like to $%&@ with STA at all
    [23:40] <Atlashill[invicta]> True.
    wishfulthinking.txt, STA probably wouldn't go with that anyway.
    [23:40] <Rebel_Virginia> Wait, what are we doing in here?
    [23:40] <~Schattenmann> We're trying to sort this out on the UPN side first
    [23:41] <~Schattenmann> random's added
    RV asks the question everybody in that channel should have.
    [23:41] <Atlashill[invicta]> The only way to sort it out on UPN's end is to fake another government crisis.
    I have no idea what he's talking about, but it's still funny.
    [23:41] <MrWhiteOcUK> the other channel is a cluster of "hurrr durrrr, my opinion is best"
    This channel will prove much more concise, if nothing else.
    [23:41] <Rebel_Virginia> I want to roll GOONS, but we need a damn solid CB to win over the deciding factors.
    [23:41] <Rebel_Virginia> I'll work on somethings to do something.
    [23:41] <~Schattenmann> RV please hold off 1 second
    I wonder what the somethings were.
    [23:42] <~Schattenmann> The CB is what we're working on
    [23:42] <Atlashill[invicta]> But the only way I can think of is for UPN gov to countermand each other.
    [23:42] <@TCK> Ok where are we at
    Work that CB, baby, also some TCK fellow shows up.
    [23:42] <Rebel_Virginia> Between you fellows, I'm considering becoming GOON bait.
    RV, you know we would never think of attacking youuuuuuuUUuuu.
    [23:43] <HeroofTime55> I wish I didn't yell at goons to put me on their no raid list, so !@#$@#$ dumb of me
    lol
    [23:44] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> the aid was not accepted
    [23:44] <~Schattenmann> Ok PEggy will bring us all up to speed
    [23:44] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I messaged the nation to deny it
    Here we go again. As stated before in the previous logs, the individual nations mistakenly reached an agreement on their own without consulting either government. A mistake that I already agreed to compensate UPN for if they could provide damages.
    [23:46] * Random () has joined #redtech
    [23:46] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Random
    Almost 10 minutes later, random finally enters the channel.
    [23:46] <@TCK> ODN is paying the 15 mil a pop for those members
    [23:46] <@TCK> ??
    [23:46] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> http://www.cybernati...ation_ID=401396
    [23:46] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> yes
    [23:46] <Poyples> so what's the current reps situation with the 100 day old UPN nation if the 1mil is cancelled?
    [23:46] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> OsRavan and I are not in agreement
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> it isn't cancelled in my view
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I linked the nation above
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> follow that link and check his aid screen
    [23:47] <MrWhiteOcUK> I think CN had a brainfart
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> it is not accepted
    [23:47] <MrWhiteOcUK> It wasn't appearing in the aid screen
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> yep
    [23:47] <MrWhiteOcUK> then was after a refresh
    Here they are continuing to discuss the dead issue.
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> so
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> OsRavan negotiated and goons accepted all without anyone from UPN in volved
    [23:47] <Poyples> well it's not to be accepted... so are GOONS going to negotiate or are they sticking to the $1mil story they told you?
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> they are trying to avoid a world war
    [23:47] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> and going behind my back to do it
    It was for their benefit that they did. You are incredibly foolish if you think that UPN could have won that conflict.
    [23:47] <@TCK> The oroblem there peggy is that if goons releases those members and no longer oursues them then this is a dead deal
    [23:47] <@TCK> problem*
    [23:47] <Atlashill[invicta]> Because it'll tear their bloc apart.
    [23:48] <Atlashill[invicta]> ODN's going C&G>UPN from the looks of it. :/
    [23:48] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> exactly
    [23:48] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> hence my utter frustration at this moment
    [23:48] <~Schattenmann> You could cancel the treaty
    [23:48] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I am discussing that at this moment
    Thus UPN's decision to drop ODN takes root.
    [23:48] <@TCK> Still does not matter
    [23:48] <@TCK> If goons removes them from the EoG list
    [23:49] <@TCK> and peaces out UPN has nothing left to go after here
    Whoever TCK is, he's right.
    [23:49] <HeroofTime55> $%&@
    [23:49] <HeroofTime55> I hate ODN so much
    [23:49] <HeroofTime55> >_>
    I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
    [23:49] <~Schattenmann> Ok guys
    [23:49] <~Schattenmann> The point of this one is that half of CN isn't in it
    [23:49] <@Random> lol odn?
    Finally random becomes active, minutes later.
    [23:52] <Rebel_Virginia> Is ODN canceling on UPN?
    [23:52] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> no
    [23:52] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> but upn is mad enough to do just that
    [23:52] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> but I see your point
    [23:52] <HeroofTime55> OK one representative from every alliance I say, exceptions only if you're a !@#$@#$ genius
    [23:52] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> it would be bad for me to cancel
    It would, peggy, for you anyway.
    [23:55] <Rebel_Virginia> Peggy_Sue|UPN: Keep the ODN treaty.
    [23:55] <Rebel_Virginia> That's what I would advise.
    [23:55] <Atlashill[invicta]> Agreed.
    [23:55] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> yes
    [23:55] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> I shall
    Or not.
    [23:55] <Poyples> the more ties to CnG alliances the better for either keeping them out, or even bringing them over
    [23:56] <Atlashill[invicta]> Agreed.
    [23:56] * @MyWorld[DT] () Quit (Quit: A day without sunshine is like .... night)
    [23:56] <Atlashill[invicta]> With UPN
    [23:56] <Atlashill[invicta]> Er, the UPN in out,
    UPN will bring C&G to fight for them, durr.
    [23:56] <@WARLORD44[uPN-MoD]> Ok really quick i need to know..... what is the plan
    [23:56] <Atlashill[invicta]> We should look into Hero's plan.
    [23:56] <@HeroofTime55> That would be red honeypot micro alliance
    [23:57] <@TCK> The only possible angle left with the UPN thing as I see it is to play up the ukomb disbandment. IF they did actually formally disband prior to those members leaving for upn then there is a PR angle to be played here
    Gotta love red honeypot microalliances.
    [23:57] <Poyples> I don't see them as more likely to hit a honeypot than any other bad raid, and a bad raid on a well connected alliance will cause more waves than a new small and irrelevant alliance
    [23:57] <Atlashill[invicta]> It shouldn't have to be red if STA's protecting it.
    [23:57] <Atlashill[invicta]> And they conveniently delay on announcing the protectorate.
    Everyone who deals with raid incidents knows that if nothing is on the wiki, forums, or bios, there is no case for reparations to be paid. It would have been funny to see WCE try to pull this off.
    [23:57] <@HeroofTime55> Red makes GOOBS more attracted to it
    [23:57] <@HeroofTime55> And yes
    [23:57] <@HeroofTime55> That
    [23:57] <@HeroofTime55> A delayed protectorate announcement
    [23:58] <Biff[CoJ]> For a real micro look, it would have to be multi
    [23:58] <~Schattenmann> yeah
    [23:58] <Atlashill[invicta]> Agree with Biff.
    Multi you say?
    [23:58] <~Schattenmann> It can be any little group of nations
    [23:58] <Atlashill[invicta]> Multicolored micro = disorganized appearance.
    [23:58] <~Schattenmann> Any one of us can make a wiki stub that says its protected by whichever one os us chooses
    [23:58] <@HeroofTime55> yes
    [23:58] <Atlashill[invicta]> With two OWF loudmouths at the helm.
    [23:59] <Grumpdogg[NpO]> i really can't see Polar being a part of this ridiculous scheme
    Grumpdogg is the voice of reason in this channel, interesting given what he said in the other.
    [00:00] <Atlashill[invicta]> If STA don't like the idea of protecting a honeypot, then the most honeypot ideas are out.
    [00:00] <Poyples> I also can't see any concocted scheme working too well, I would rather wait for an inevitable GOONS mistake than get caught forcing one
    And here once again is the presumption that a raid incident will lead to a losing war for us. It won't. Stop waiting for it. We handle all raid incidents appropriately, and will continue to do so.
    [00:00] <~Schattenmann> I think the fake AA is pie in the sky
    [00:00] <Grumpdogg[NpO]> we're worried about the legit CB not being enough to sway people and you're seriosuly trying to create some fairy tale?
    [00:00] <@TCK> agreed
    [00:00] <Grumpdogg[NpO]> get a grip
    [00:00] <Grumpdogg[NpO]> go aid Methrage
    [00:00] <Poyples> Dopp tried that one, doesn't work apparently
    [00:01] <SCM|Studies> good to see some common sense
    [00:01] <SCM|Studies>
    Methrage is a running joke even in these circles apparently.
    [00:02] <Atlashill[invicta]> OK, we go to the wait-and-see.
    [00:02] <Cookavich[NpO]> lets see how UPN pans out
    [00:02] <~Schattenmann> If the situation with UPN gets resolved then I guess we'll have to wait and see how long before logs of tonight hit the OWF.
    Not long, fortunately.
    [00:03] <Grumpdogg[NpO]> the talk of stupid schemes in the other chan pretty much kills our coalition when it goes public
    No, the composition of your terrible coalition, and the fact that it's led by Schatt kills it.
    [00:04] <Atlashill[invicta]> Unless someone uses it as a CB to attack all of us simultaneously.
    [00:04] <@HeroofTime55> Just brainstorming, but the schemes were rejected
    [00:04] <Atlashill[invicta]> Which is unlikely.
    [00:04] <Atlashill[invicta]> (And logs do get edited conveniently, mind you.)
    [00:05] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> well that is a distinct possibility...we're all attacked for scheming
    [00:05] <Peggy_Sue|UPN> that'd solve the cb problem
    [00:05] <Atlashill[invicta]> True, but I suspect they'll only attack some of us.
    [00:06] <Atlashill[invicta]> As to, well, scatter the rest of us.
    Fortunately for the denizens of the logs, it was not in our best interest to declare war.
    [00:06] <@HeroofTime55> then we have to make a pact
    [00:06] <@HeroofTime55> that if they strike one of us, we all go
    [00:06] <@HeroofTime55> hm, is that wise?
    Pretty quick idea turnover there.
    [00:06] <@HeroofTime55> If it's over the logs I guess
    [00:07] <Atlashill[invicta]> Which means someone in the room would have been a backstabber.
    Not so much someone as many different people, to be honest.
    [00:08] <pezstar> Just remember, guys.
    [00:08] <pezstar> It won't take but a day or two for GOONS to $%&@ up again.
    It's been how many weeks? And yet, nothing.
    [00:08] <Atlashill[invicta]> We need to set up a watchtower.
    [00:09] <Atlashill[invicta]> Monitor their raids.
    Good luck with that, we have multiple full positions for just that. Have fun sorting through our hundreds of raids looking for the oh so precious CB.
    [00:09] <~Schattenmann> Ok, I think the other chanel pretty much served its purpose
    [00:09] <~Schattenmann> Let's keep this to Heads of State and one or two other gov
    [00:09] <@HeroofTime55> yes
    [00:09] <Atlashill[invicta]> Sounds like a plan.
    [00:09] <Atlashill[invicta]> I'll advise Jorost to check in here when he's on.
    [00:10] <~Schattenmann> I know every minister of whatever wants to be SOP in a secret channel--I did when I was--but that's why we all have gov-only forums
    The channel, as unceremoniously as it came into being, disbands, having gone through the exact same thought processes as the other one, with the same amount of nothing to show for it.
    [00:13] <~Schattenmann> Any alliances missing in here?
    [00:14] <pezstar> They're not attacking anyone on Sunday
    [00:14] <Cookavich[NpO]> IAA
    [00:14] <~Schattenmann> Who do I need to add from IAA?
    [00:14] <Cookavich[NpO]> Voodoo
    [00:14] <~Schattenmann> ok
    [00:14] <~Schattenmann> I forgot he's not NpO anymore
    I'm sure he does too.
    [00:15] <~Schattenmann> ok he's added
    [00:15] <~Schattenmann> I know but I forget lol
    [00:15] <~Schattenmann> I still think potato is ODN
    [00:15] <@HeroofTime55> potato is bad news
    [00:15] <@HeroofTime55> odn is bad news
    potato: literally an odn member.
    [00:15] * Voodoo () has joined #redtech
    [00:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Voodoo
    [00:15] <@HeroofTime55> lets hope goons $%&@ up before it gets to the tater
    I've never heard the phrase "before it gets to the tater", can a rural citizen explain it to me?
    [00:22] <Atlashill[invicta]> What do we do about preparing ourselves for war?
    [00:22] <@HeroofTime55> Heggo but i dunno his nick
    [00:22] <~Schattenmann> MegaAros boogied on over to CoJ officially so I'm bringing him in as MoD
    [00:22] <Atlashill[invicta]> We've pretty much determined we're going to respond to a future GOONS feck-up.
    [00:22] <Cookavich[NpO]> good catch
    Yes, have fun with that. Good to know that we can "screw up" and force them to destroy themselves at our leisure though.
    [00:22] <Atlashill[invicta]> But we can't throw a thousand nations on the, ill prepared.
    [00:23] <@HeroofTime55> for now we have the advantage of surprise
    [00:23] <Atlashill[invicta]> Nor can we just start building up navies and stuff without anyone knowing.
    [00:23] <@Voodoo> Procure tech
    [00:23] <@HeroofTime55> you should already have navies built dude
    [00:23] <@HeroofTime55> :/
    [00:23] <@HeroofTime55> i mean idk modern cn prep
    [00:23] <Atlashill[invicta]> Actually, I'm under 1000 land.
    [00:24] <@Voodoo> really?
    [00:24] <Atlashill[invicta]> Navies can't touch me.
    [00:24] <@HeroofTime55> but i used to maintain a full military at all times
    Worst Military Ever.
    [00:24] <@Voodoo> During war, if you're winning, you'll gain land
    Except for the whole getting nuked thing, sure.
    [00:24] <~Schattenmann> Ok, I'm going to bed
    Schatt exits, stage left.
    [00:26] <~Schattenmann> If I missed anyone that is a head of state (or his appointed) rep or top-level, directly involved gov add them. Please don't add every minister of recruitment and deputy of sock drawers and adviser-to-whoever. MoDs, heads of state you get the idea
    It won't help, Schatt. I will always find the truth, for there is always somebody on our side in an unexpected place, as high up as you can go.
    [00:27] <@Voodoo> I don't see +k
    [00:27] <~Schattenmann> I took the pass off once I got you guys in
    [00:28] <@HeroofTime55> is this thing secret
    [00:28] <~Schattenmann> and set up the access list
    [00:28] <@Voodoo> It's +s
    [00:28] <~Schattenmann> yep its secret
    Relativity secret, anyway.
    [00:32] * ChanServ sets mode: +o bud
    [00:32] <@bud> sorry all had a melt down
    [00:32] <@HeroofTime55> I'm off to bed as are others
    [00:32] <@bud> fair enough
    [00:32] * Daikos{DF} is now known as Daikos{SleeP}
    [00:32] <@bud> any determination on UPN CB?
    [00:32] <@HeroofTime55> Class till 2 PM tomorrow then I should be back
    [00:33] <@HeroofTime55> UPN is shot, we're playing the waiting game AFAIK
    [00:33] <@TCK> no go bud
    [00:34] <~Schattenmann> May still be able to pull it out of the fire but that will be seen tomorrow
    [00:34] <~Schattenmann> goodnight guys
    [00:34] <Cookavich[NpO]> what Schattenmann said
    [00:34] <Cookavich[NpO]> its all up to them now
    [00:34] <@bud> night schat
    [00:34] <Cookavich[NpO]> night
    And with that, the king leaves, and the pawns follow. Nothing more is said in this channel after Schatt leaves.
    So there you have it, I hope nobody was disappointed, but there is not a whole lot more that can be milked from the incident. Hopefully in the future Schatt will once again put his considerable coalition building skills to the test to make a worthy PB cracking coalition. Worthy of our attention anyway.
  11. Sardonic
    The hunt is on, the hunters begin plotting out ways to find the elusive CB.
    Numerous theories are tested
    RV, having reconsidered his earlier position, decides that CB is actually important.
    Ah yes, the 1m, which was asked for by the nation that was mistakenly raided, and sent by the radier nation, unknown to both alliance governments. They caused quite the hubub, and come up multiple times in the discussion.
    I'm genuinely interested that this started a debate, not having a real important stake in it, that they debated this issue for quite some time, heatedly.
    Pezstar makes a strange claim, I'm not sure if I'd agree with it.
    RV agrees with her, apparently.
    And the claws come out.
    The CB big game hunters go back to the drawing board.
    More to come in the next part
  12. Sardonic
    So begins another glorious chapter in the hunt for the lost CB.
    No, actually they can't make any half-assed argument work Chron, they lie and twist at will (and RV is just hysterical)
    WE DONT HAVE TIME TO THINK THINGS THROUGH THE TIME TO ATTACK IS NOW GOGOGOG
    RV, recoiling in horror, finally begins to realize the unintended purpose of the coalition.
    We're actually not tied to FOK directly, but PB will be done soon enough anyway. Good eye RV, glad you guys finally are picking up on the "GOONS is going to charge you a lot of money for screwing with them" aspect of our diplomacy.
    More discussion. They implied we lied about the 1m, when in reality it was just sent and accepted by the two members acting independently. (I did offer to pay the damages of the nation though, if peggy would prefer that {she never contacted me again, probably realized that a nation that it wouldn't total above 1m anyway}). I really wish they had used this as a CB because it is so laughably bad they would have been utterly crushed.
    And here we have IAA, or as I like to call them, diet NpO.
    Peggy starts up the hysteria engines, while RV becomes more calm and logical, quite dualistic in a way.
    A pity RV, I imagine you're quite the dancer, the way you dance around issues on the OWF.
    More in part 12
  13. Sardonic
    pezstar laying down the smackdown.
    Morals == fighting when you know you'll lose. Such a stupid line of thought, it degrades real morality.
    Uh oh Bob Janova, looks like she's calling you out. You two need to have a moral-off.
    The infighting continues, splitting the coalition asunder.
    You're welcome Grumpdogg.
    I'm genuinely amused that the 90m methrage amount has become some bizzare standard that we've apparently started, despire the fact that we sold the UOKMB rogues for 15 each. But I guess the amount isn't important, as long as they don't think we'll pay it, giving them a really bad CB I guess?
  14. Sardonic
    This fire's out of control, it's gonna burn this city, burn this city.
    Love the sparta-bashing behind their back, and the assumption that we make enemies faster than we make friends.
    I wonder what MHA would really think about all this.
    And so a new devilish plot is devised, one to trick us and trap us.
    [20:20] <@HeroofTime55> 5 red nations, about 8-10k NS, no nukes
    Aw isn't that cute Schattenmann, HoT thinks you're politically important enough to demand 90m.
    I'm really looking forward to this.
    Alas RV, I fear OBR would never fall for such a dumb ruse.
  15. Sardonic
    Ah, and at last we reach the lowest point.
    Schattenmann, despairing at last, ever so chipper in his interactions on the OWF, loses hope.
    Blame and drama abounds, as the ridiculous idea of a trap micro is tossed around some more.
    Disappointment, resentment, agony, these are the emotions felt by the lonely warriors, unable to find the sword with which to slay the mighty dragon.
    Schattenmann, apparently tricked by UPN's dogged pursuit of falsehoods, reaches his lowest point.
    That last sentence says more than anything. Schemes. Not justice. Lies, not the truth. There is no interest in such noble virtues as truth and justice between the pathetic alliances of the WCE. There is just hate, hate of us, which unites them. As they scramble over each other, fighting endlessly, seeking a CB, we only gain in strength, and laugh at their pathetic attempts. Their hate strengthens us, and their apparent stupidity merely pushes more intelligent alliances more in our direction.
  16. Sardonic
    I bet you thought I was done, didn't you? Well, there's more, and even after I'm done with the coalition channel logs, I will be adding a special bonus edition where I highlight the the silliness of a very special leader of a very special alliance.
    It's pretty funny how PB has somehow become a bloc led by us. We're one of the smaller elements in it, and it's not a MADP bloc that can be moved by a single alliance.
    Daggarz is my favorite, he fundamentally thinks we cannot be in the right. It's funny to watch them run around like chickens with their heads cut off at the prospect of us "picking a few of them off", as if we would do such a thing.
    HeroofTime, as always, is flat wrong. We would not not pay that because we are dumb, we would not pay that because we are not dumb. 90m for a raid incident is extortion, the very thing that they so ardently accuse us of. Just another example of their "morals when convenient" philosophy.
    Actually there is, you look like an idiot, if the Ninjas and FnKA incidents have taught us anything.
    I agree, you should abandon all pretense of morality and attack us, it will make it that much easier to justify the reparations you'd have to pay us after it was all over.
    That's still a really, really, bad CB btw. Anything related to the UOKMB rebels or the mistaken raid is really.
    Ah yes, they mention the annoyances with the two members working things out on their own. Of course, if they had bothered to research the situation, they would have found instantly that it was the raided member who requested the 1m. Even beyond that, I told her I would pay a damage calculation rep if she wanted to bother making one (I knew it would be less than 1m anyway, but that's besides the point), further nullifying any CB that could have come out of it. But why do the right thing, when you can use it as ammo to attack an enemy?
    Aiding nuclear rogues is just as much a crime if they are flying your AA as it is when they were flying their own. Here's yet another a good example of why this coalition really is the Worst Coalition Ever, that they thought they could sell this to people.
  17. Sardonic
    Aiding nuclear rogues is awesome guys! This would be the best CB ever!
    For us.
    It is just newbs, the guy who mistakenly raided and sent the 1m was literally 6 days old, if I recall. Regardless, we have made great strides, and will continue to do so, regardless of whatever moronic coalition is fighting us over it, we don't like raid incidents any more than you people do.
    You didn't hear right, tbh. But I'm flattered you think we're capable of it.
    Ah yes, the wonderful lie that draws so many morons to their side. Truly we are just like the old GOONS for not wanting to let nuclear rogues get away scott free, and paying reparations for our raiding incidents.
    Seeking Sparta, savior of the WCE.
    I can't speak for my NOIR allies, but I wouldn't count on that.
    I'd live to see this conversation.
    Oh, dang.
    Yep, no disagreements, except for the ones with logic and morality.
    More to come.
  18. Sardonic
    I don't know tyga, but I'm guessing he would not be ~down with this no-cb coalition~.
    If you attacked, it would make for some interest chapters in our historical archives, I'll admit.
    We truly own the mindshare for the word "goons".
    Not entirely sure what he ment by this, unless by "moving their treaties" he means "into the shredder".
    I wonder if UPN would even have 30 members after a few months of war, if you truly "would not surrender".
    Everybody forgets about the whole "they are nuclear rogues we accepted" thing, I guess it was too negative to warrant thinking about in the equation.
    Surely ODN would be easy to win over, right? If them, why not the rest of CnG? It's genius!
    I do wonder what RoK said to zog.
    Not while you're still treatied to UPN you're not .
    More to come.
  19. Sardonic
    The unquestioningly "real" nuclear rogues you accepted, you mean?
    And people call us the warmongers.
    lol
    Hmmmmm.
    What do you mean =LOST= has a treaty with GOONS? Oh wait, that never even came up. (worst coalition ever)
    Here we see more "planning" grasping at every diplomatic avenue available.
    Penguin and Peggy_Sue? I'd ship it. (No I wouldn't)
    WE LOVE YOU TOO.
    You mad?
  20. Sardonic
    I'm genuinely curious what the number they came up with for our side was, probably dramatically understated.
    The fact that said members were nuclear rogues?
    Yes how dare those GOONS trick their nation into paying 1m requested by the raided to the raider unknown to both alliances' govs.
    Well, there's something we can agree on.
    What a shame, I would have wanted to see an entire side's FA effort be nothing but trolling.
    Daggarz, abandoning all diplomatic pretenses again, proudly declares that they will take advantage of bandwagoning, before RV drags him back the reality.
    Truly we are the NY Yankees of CN, you either love us or hate us.
    The hunt for a good CB truly is a rough trek.
    Forced disbandment is bad (except when it's GOONS, of course) again.
    More in the next part.
  21. Sardonic
    Welcome back! As we saw in the last installment, the mischievous plotting was just getting underway, devilishly clever plans to set up dummy alliances for GOONS to raid were being hatched and a good time was being had by all.
    [20:25] <~Schattenmann> You know what's so funny? UjW started in part when GOONS raided a member of GGA and refused to stop, then GGA defended the member and GOONS declared on the defenders
    So to speak, anyway. Schattenman invokes the UjW, forgetting a few details in the process, mainly that the GGA 'nation' wasn't flying the AA at the time, and that GOONS (the elder) refused to pay reps over it because the nation had no indication it was a GGA member.
    [20:26] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> there has been rude, beligernet talk and Sardonic doesn't want to negotiate to meet in the middle
    Here's peggy, fundamentally misunderstanding diplomacy. Diplomacy is not automatically about "meeting in the middle", diplomacy is about getting what you want, making friends, screwing enemies, and getting justice. We were not interested in a compromise, though we did eventually reach an agreement with ODN.
    Once again, they miss the point of our high reparations level, it's not about profit, it's about justice, and paying your dues to society.
    Master tacticians at work.
    [20:29] <@bud> who here can handle the top tier FOK UMB PC possibly MK top tier i dont see an AA in here that can deal with them
    Bud is beginning to understand why this is a terrible idea, but he presses on in the channel anyway.
    It's always nice to see the Umbrella/GOONS partnership pay off, our "unlimited" tech to them has made them a dire threat indeed.
    [20:31] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> our advantage will have to be numbers and political pressure
    Oh Daggarz, you are so far in over your head.
    The idea of TOP coming is quickly disregarded for economic reasons. Schattenmann clearly has a complete understanding of Milton Friedman's assertion that countries who are economically dependent on each other will not go to war. Or he's just making crap up like he usually does, either way.
    I don't claim to understand all the intricacies of modern NpO/NPO relations, but once again, I'm guessing NPO would not be cool with this.
    I have to wonder if that's true or not, Xiph is probably a fan of his left nut. Regardless, more fruitless discussion over NPO.
    Aaaand that's enough for part 2, stay tuned for part 3.
  22. Sardonic
    [22:31] <%Rebel_Virginia> Let's win it.
    [22:32] <%bzelger[sTA]> I don't like leaving the Ninjas or FnKA out there longer than necessary if we're going in soon
    [22:32] <%TehChron> Mhm
    [22:32] <%TehChron> but they picked that fight for a reason
    [22:32] <%TehChron> so lets not let that reason go to waste
    No, actually they picked the fight for no reason, quite literally in fact.
    [22:32] <@bud> if its done to win i can sell it. To do it just to die and let them rampage through the game with out fear no way CJ will go for it
    [22:32] <@MegaAros> Suppose they mistreated the Ninja's attempt to peace out.
    [22:33] <@MegaAros> Could that be used as a CB?
    [22:33] <%Rebel_Virginia> Not really.
    [22:33] <%Voodoo> I need to be able to sell this to IAA as well
    Good to see they aren't that stupid.
    [22:34] <%Voodoo> We all need to be on the same page to get it to work
    [22:34] <%TehChron> but we need a *good* *compelling* argument
    [22:34] <%TehChron> or its all wasted
    [22:34] <%Rebel_Virginia> We'll need some good propaganda.
    [22:34] <%Rebel_Virginia> We're going to want to win some hearts here.
    [22:34] <%Rebel_Virginia> Make people want to roll GOONS.
    [22:34] <%TehChron> make people want to roll GOONS *despite* their friends
    I'm flattered that we somehow evoke enough hate to make people forget how well-connected we are.
    [22:38] <%TehChron> Well, too many fingers in this pie right now
    [22:38] <%TehChron> lets leave that issue for after we have what we want to convey
    [22:38] <%TehChron> No need to incite egos to rub against each other while were all still in agreement
    [22:39] <@MegaAros> If you're going to start a war of words.
    [22:39] <@MegaAros> Be careful.
    [22:39] <@MegaAros> They may catch on.
    [22:39] <@MegaAros> AND LOL COLD WAR
    [22:39] <%TehChron> Of course
    [22:39] <%TehChron> but why would we start a war right now?
    [22:39] <%TehChron> well settle this with our guns
    [22:39] <%TehChron> and win over hearts with our words
    [22:39] <%TehChron> need a compelling story to use words effectively
    [22:40] <%TehChron> and until we have one, going for such a conflict is futile
    [22:40] <%TehChron> itll just be empty braying
    Any war of words would have been tragically lost, given the fact that the facts are indisputably on our side of the issue.
    [22:42] <%Voodoo> Thing is, tech raids gone bad have become the norm enough that some just don't care. What story would be able to come from a tech raid gone bad?
    [22:42] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> eventually it will come down to one alliance saying "actually we won't just bend over for GOONS"
    [22:43] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> it will have to be a decently connect alliance
    (So not UPN then)
    [22:49] <%TehChron> Well, to be fair
    [22:49] <%TehChron> they did start with advantage anyway
    [22:49] <%Voodoo> Are GOONS allies still getting reps?
    [22:49] <%TehChron> and the element of surprise isnt exactly enough for us to win
    [22:50] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> yeah
    [22:50] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> i still want to know who the actual fence sitters are
    [22:50] <%TehChron> we can find that out
    [22:50] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> if we're sitting here waiting for Sparta and MHA to commit
    [22:50] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> then we really are <removed>
    Astute as ever, Grumpdogg.
    [22:54] <@Peggy_Sue|UPN> Well, I am sorry UPN will not be able to provide the CB that is needed. Please let me know when one comes up and what I may do to help
    The operation a bust, Peggy apologizes for not being able to manufacture a CB.
    [23:03] <+Lennox> Why is dark fist in here? and nemesis
    [23:03] <%Voodoo> I have a Tesla avatar somewhere
    [23:03] <%TehChron> because they were invited, I guess
    [23:03] <@Poyples> be nice Lennox:(
    [23:03] <@SCM|Studies> Lennox: spying on NSO
    [23:04] <+Lennox> No its a valid question
    [23:04] <+Lennox> I thought the black sphere was buddy buddy
    Now, the black sphere is many things, but buddy buddy it is not.
    [23:05] <@SCM|Studies> the black sphere is buddy buddy, with the exception of goons
    [23:06] <@Poyples> GOONS aren't the biggest fans of Nemesis since Daggarz was mean to one of their members
    [23:06] <%TehChron> So theyre the eh...black sheep?
    [23:06] <%TehChron> or the albinos of the black sphere?
    [23:06] <@SCM|Studies> or <removed>
    [23:06] <%TehChron> god <removed> it I was being subtle
    No, we're not the biggest fans of Nemesis because Nemesis is a legitimately terrible alliance.
    [23:06] <%Rebel_Virginia> Does anyone notice who makes up this coalition?
    [23:06] <%Rebel_Virginia> NSO, DF.
    [23:07] <%Rebel_Virginia> We need CSN.
    [23:07] <%TehChron> Ill get right on that
    [23:07] <%Atlashill[invicta]> CSN?
    [23:07] <%TehChron> Yes
    [23:07] <%Rebel_Virginia> It was a joke.
    [23:07] <%Atlashill[invicta]> The moment they see UPN's in it, they'll bolt.
    CSN is quickly mentioned and discarded.
    [23:07] <%TehChron> I already sent the logs to Penkala
    [23:07] <%Atlashill[invicta]>
    [23:07] <%TehChron>
    [23:07] <@Poyples> exposé coming up
    [23:07] <%Atlashill[invicta]> RUN FOR IT!
    Exposé almost done.
    [23:07] <%Rebel_Virginia> But yes, there certainly are some strange bedfellows here.
    [23:07] <%Rebel_Virginia> But it is necessary.
    [23:07] * %Atlashill[invicta] runs to hide
    [23:08] <%Rebel_Virginia> GOONS must die.
    RV, GOONS slayer.
    [23:09] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> hopefully one day someone will defend their members when GOONS pull another stunt
    [23:09] <%Rebel_Virginia> Or their protectorate.
    [23:09] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> it used to be the basic premise an alliance was founded on
    Yes, accepting nuclear rogues and demanding those they wronged peace out with them is the premise an alliance is founded on.
    [23:10] <@Grumpdogg[NpO]> now GOONS can play their fiddle on the OWF and get away with murder
    I won my golden fiddle from the devil himself.
    [23:12] <%Voodoo> It's because they said "do something about it" enough times that people assume they can't do anything unless a massive war happens
    [23:12] <%Atlashill[invicta]> The next time they say it.
    [23:13] <%Atlashill[invicta]> Say "Done"
    [23:13] <%Atlashill[invicta]>
    [23:13] <%Voodoo> Two alliances have done that already
    And it's not working out terribly well for them, I might add.
    [23:14] <%Atlashill[invicta]> But there are 20 here.
    [23:14] <%Atlashill[invicta]> 20 saying done in unison will resonate more than two.
    [23:15] <%TehChron> ???
    [23:15] <%Atlashill[invicta]> "Do Something About It"
    [23:15] <%Voodoo> That's like showing your hand before the bets are done
    A lie, if repeated by enough people, is the truth, apparently.
    All they succeeded in doing was letting us know who are enemies are, which I suppose is important enough. They sought a CB that wasn't there, they discussed making up a CB, they discussed alliances who would never, ever fight on their side, they demonstrated ignorance of politics and diplomacy itself, they truly are the Worst Coalition Ever. That's all for now, unless somebody wants to send me more logs that I have not mentioned here, in which case, please do so. I will have one final bonus post after this, and then we can put a close to the most laughable coalition in cybernations history. (unless I get more logs, of course).
  23. Sardonic
    Annnd we're moving, hold on tight, because we're going to be traversing the dread swamps of stupidity! Watch out, you don't want to sink into it!
    Here you can see that all of these government members are very GOD-fearing. I am glad, more people need to have the fear of GOD in them.
    Just to highlight who is in the coalition channel now.
    Ah yes, the old "demand unreasonable reparations" play, yes, that will certainly go over well. UPN being the key of course.
    Schattenman, with the pass to NpO!
    [20:39] <@Poyples> bit high for GOONS?
    [20:40] <@MegaAros> GOONS is 14k
    [20:40] <@MegaAros> So yeah
    ...and it's a fumble.
    Gotta love democracy.
    Oh, it's one of those democracies.
    Once again, Peggy displays ignorance about the UOKMB incident. It was only a "raid gone bad" in the loosest sense of the terms.
    Daggarz, as usual, does not understand. The individual members must get peace through either reps or the mercy board.
    Grumpdogg makes a funny.
    This meeting of the minds just got real.
    More in part 4.
  24. Sardonic
    We've seen some silly things so far, but guess what folks, the show has only just begun! Some of the things you are about to see will astound and amaze you.
    20:51] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> Progress gentleman!
    [20:51] <@Daggarz[Nemesis]> its delicious!
    [20:51] <@Co_God_Ben[loss]> the stars are aligning
    The ancient roman astrologers foretold of the day when GOONS would fall.
    But what's this? A new member has joined the party!
    A brave knight of Invicta, trained in the kingdom of daddy NPO.
    Sorry, no refunds.
    [20:52] <@Doppelganger> I didnt know you could find out about secret aid via the Gather Intel spy option......
    The more you know -*
    If by "diverse" they mean "incompetent people who hate each other, but hate GOONS more".
    Ah yes, the first touch of self-doubt, it is from here the mood of the channel takes a decidedly somber tone.
    You have my sword... maybe... hold on I need to talk with my manager...
    [20:56] <~Schattenmann> Ok, this is how a war gets totally fracked up: Loose lips. If you need to get a vote, or go to a higher-up, do it on IRC or in the highest, least-accessible forum on your forum
    [20:56] <~Schattenmann> If eevryone gets excited and starts telling their friends to go to defcon 1, then we're sunk
    Yes, because IRC never gets leaked, ever.
    You spin me right round baby right round, like a record baby.
    Grumpdogg is a master tactician.
    [20:58] <~Schattenmann> The world V. GOONS
    Keep dreaming Schatt, Keep dreaming.
    More in part V
  25. Sardonic
    GOONS has the rare distinction of being one of the most misunderstood alliances on bob. Some see us as:
    A cancer.
    A bully
    An object of sexual desire
    An assassin
    A peasant to be hexed by a vengeful witch.
    A call to rally barbarians.
    But having said all that, we are none. We are a simple justice loving people who believe in punitive reps and the rule of law. We are a work of modern art, people may see many different things in us, but it is the painters and their friends who know us best.
×
×
  • Create New...