An Agora Announcement

[Penguin]

hahahaha what part of that statement is confusing you maget?

Agora is not a threat to any alliance, blue team or otherwise, sorry if that doesn't fit some preconcieved notion you have.

Err... so were you being sarcastic when you said: "Agora is under no threat, the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us, stability achieved."

[Bob]

hahahaha what part of that statement is confusing you maget?

Agora is not a threat to any alliance, blue team or otherwise, sorry if that doesn't fit some preconcieved notion you have.

Then why did you say it was?

[MaGneT]

Agora is not a threat to any alliance, blue team or otherwise

the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us

NO WAY REALLY?

EDIT: Sam, or any other MCXA gov, if I were you I'd get your gag orders ready.

Edited February 15, 2009 by MaGneT

[West of Eden]

Err... so were you being sarcastic when you said: "Agora is under no threat, the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us, stability achieved."

Think that's a typo and he meant "no threat." That said, it's funny that NpO doesn't know NPO policy anymore since NPO is in the bloc. And last comment, what is NPO doing in a blue bloc? Anyway......

[Willaim Kreiger]

Aw, I typed up a clever post regarding Celtmark's blatant hypocrisy but you two beat me to it. It even had bolded words so we could all understand it Seriously, what?

EDIT:

Think that's a typo and he meant "no threat." That said, it's funny that NpO doesn't know NPO policy anymore since NPO is in the bloc. And last comment, what is NPO doing in a blue bloc? Anyway......

What are you talking about?

Edited February 15, 2009 by Willaim Kreiger

[keltoi]

Then why did you say it was?

I didn't, please show me where i did.

My apologies to all, it was a typo.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Celtmark

[MaGneT]

Think that's a typo and he meant "no threat." That said, it's funny that NpO doesn't know NPO policy anymore since NPO is in the bloc. And last comment, what is NPO doing in a blue bloc? Anyway......

Your last comment. . . I'd like to fix it.

Why is NPO in a bloc that pretends to be blue?

RTA is not a blue unity bloc. It's an economic extension of 1V/Tech farm for Pacifica.

EDIT:

@Celtmark: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1273493

Edited February 15, 2009 by MaGneT

[Willaim Kreiger]

I didn't, please show me where i did.

I don't think i'm the one being dense here dude, Every member of Agora would like to see unity on the Blue team, however people like you make that difficult. It doesn't change the fact that we desire it anyway.

Stability is achieved by providing a safe, pleasant atmosphere in which to rule our nations as we see fit.

Agora is under no threat, the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us, stability achieved.

I bolded it so even you can find it

Ah, a typo, then we're good

Edited February 15, 2009 by Willaim Kreiger

[Penguin]

My apologies to all, it was a typo.

No worries, it happens to all of us. Sometimes at more embarrassing moments than others. If it makes you feel better, I didn't feel very threatened anyway.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Penguin

[West of Eden]

Your last comment. . . I'd like to fix it.

Why is NPO in a bloc that pretends to be blue?

RTA is not a blue unity bloc. It's an economic extension of 1V/Tech farm for Pacifica.

Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarifications. They're pretty bad at pretending I'd note, how are you going to pretend it's blue when there is a known puppet master that's not even on blue in it.

[ilselu1]

Don't feel bad about the senate. Drai of Greenland Republic is the most popular senator on any sphere by a margin of 159 votes.

:lol: A group of friends that were wanting to have some trade circles & tech deals, thought we could vote in a Senator while we were at it... seems the resulting singleness of effort achieved it's intended goal. Drai sucks at winning.

My biggest issue with Agora isn't that NPO is getting tech, or winning games. I could care less about Tetris. But my qualm lies rather with the fact that they are in a place to influence politics in the Blue sphere, and that Agora veils said influence as promotion of "Blue Unity"... For Real? I'll shout, "Go Big Red!" but to bastardize the idea of Blue unity? I can understand needing guidance and organization, but do not many of the alliances not currently in Agora have an abundance of talent with these qualifications? Did not the Leaders and Ministers of Finance and Banking of Polaris, GR, Hyperion, among others, pull off one of the fastest turnarounds of post war reps ever? Do many of these same alliances not have the ability to organize their nations to clean up in a senate race? Why then would those alliances who formed Agora feel the need to outsource said Blue abilities to NPO? Friends are cool. Red friends are cool. But causing segregation and separation in the name of unity doesn't work.

[/two cents]

[Bob Janova]

Unity doesn't come in a day, especially since we were apart of the green sphere, you should know this.

Clearly, but Agora doesn't seem like it is intending to unite the sphere. Was Dilrow a colour unity treaty? Of course not. Green Unity came about through the joint efforts of everybody on Green, it did not grow out of a bloc that began by only including some Green alliances, and it certainly did not come about through a bloc with a non-Green alliance as the largest member.

Agora is for Blue unity, the fact that the "opposing" bloc of blue alliances choose not to join doesn't change this. Agora will continue to achieve stability for our members, nothing else really matters.

Random already nailed this (god, I never thought I'd be fighting Random's corner) but 'stability for your members' and 'unity' are two completely different things. If nothing bar the first really matters (your words), the second is clearly not important.

We were not anti-BLEU we were an improvement on a broken BLEU.

You may have honestly believed this but if you did then I think you were naive. If it were to be an improvement, it would have been discussed with BLEU and BLEU would have been expected to be initial signatories – or signatories-in-waiting, since they were mostly under terms at that time. I was in Continuum government at the time and I know for a fact it was not discussed with BLEU, and its purpose was mainly to consolidate the non-BLEU friends of Continuum on Blue (particularly MCXA and Echelon who had sacrificed major places within BLEU and could make good use of a similar position in a new Blue bloc).

[Ejayrazz]

Clearly, but Agora doesn't seem like it is intending to unite the sphere. Was Dilrow a colour unity treaty? Of course not. Green Unity came about through the joint efforts of everybody on Green, it did not grow out of a bloc that began by only including some Green alliances, and it certainly did not come about through a bloc with a non-Green alliance as the largest member.

Correct on the bloc, incorrect elsewhere. VE was never included initially. When we tried forming a green peace treaty, we were left out

[RandomInterrupt]

What have I done and what I am doing that makes it difficult? You two have brought that up, so please explain. I thought I was retired and simply showed up to point out that several of you have no idea what the word "unity" means. Please, tell me what I am doing to prevent it.

Still waiting for my answer by the way. Thanks in advance.

Random already nailed this (god, I never thought I'd be fighting Random's corner) but 'stability for your members' and 'unity' are two completely different things. If nothing bar the first really matters (your words), the second is clearly not important.

I'm effectively a free agent at this point. Not too surprising that we will occasionally agree. But yes it freaks me out too!

[HeinousOne]

HeinousOne: you seem to be taking offence where there is none. If the alliances of Agora feel it is in their interests to export tech outside Blue, then of course it is their right to do so. My point is simply that if that is their belief and their action, then Agora is not there to improve the economy of Blue and promote Blue Unity.

I have no problem with Echelon and MCXA doing business with whoever they like (well, I would prefer for MCXA to strengthen themselves as they are allies of mine ). I don't really have a problem here at all actually, but I do think that it is disingenious to try to claim that Agora is promoting Blue Unity at the same time as doing actions through it which help a non-Blue alliance and keeping some Blue alliances from that help. The problem is only that Agora is claiming it is for Blue Unity, not with its actions which are perfectly reasonable for a group of friendly alliances.

(Also I didn't realise you left the NPO.)

Alright, just didnt appreciate the first part of your post to me but perhaps I took it the wrong way, moving on.

Now, keep in mind I am not partaking in this discussion as a representative or even a member of NPO. Pacifica is in a different position when it comes to acquiring tech then the rest of the world. Their choice in controlling the Red Sphere has led to there being no smaller alliances on the sphere for them to build tech trading relations with. That means they need to look outwards from the Red Sphere. I am of course not privy to all of the talks that led up to the founding of Agora but I do not find it surprising that longtime allies of NPO, Echelon and MCXA, have put together Agora along with NPO so in essence it combines the Blue and Red spheres economically tech speaking.

To say that the inclusion of NPO causes such a stir that blue unity cannot be achieved isnt necessarily a scientific fact. It is merely a statement that certain individuals or alliances do not wish to be a part of an economic treaty with them. I personally still do not see how tech from the blue sphere going to the red sphere harms the blue sphere. How many other multicolored tech deals go on daily out there?

The major issue in going forward is the power struggle. How do you go about bringing together this extremely large group (Blue Sphere) without having any major clashes between opposing viewpoints. It would take alot of soothing of ego as well as methods of getting past old conflicts. These games that Agora puts on seem like one possible way of doing such.

To finish off, it is entirely possible for Agora to initially have been put together to bring some stability to the alliances that were the initial members. Once some stability was found then you begin to look forward and a good long term goal is Blue Unity. The major issue is whether the Blue Sphere as a whole can deal with Agora leadership as it stands rather then the previous traditional Blue leadership.

There wont be any big change that could be made that would settle the old enmities and mistrust. That takes time as well as both sides giving it an honest shot.

[Bob Janova]

The major issue is whether the Blue Sphere as a whole can deal with Agora leadership as it stands rather then the previous traditional Blue leadership.

This sentence here encapsulates the problem with Agora's attitude. Unity can never be achieved under the leadership of one faction. It must be achieved through a consensus of all factions.

[Lusitan]

This sentence here encapsulates the problem with Agora's attitude. Unity can never be achieved under the leadership of one faction. It must be achieved through a consensus of all factions.

We're a bit tired of saying we're open to work towards a consensus in this thread...

[watchman]

It is very disappointing to see some of the reactions in this thread to our invitation.

Well, in other news, Firebolt is going to make a great Senator, and UBD is really good at old school arcade games. Everyone be sure to come by and mess around at Agora's arcade!

Edited February 16, 2009 by watchman

[Infinite Narwhal]

Alright, just didnt appreciate the first part of your post to me but perhaps I took it the wrong way, moving on.

Now, keep in mind I am not partaking in this discussion as a representative or even a member of NPO. Pacifica is in a different position when it comes to acquiring tech then the rest of the world. Their choice in controlling the Red Sphere has led to there being no smaller alliances on the sphere for them to build tech trading relations with. That means they need to look outwards from the Red Sphere. I am of course not privy to all of the talks that led up to the founding of Agora but I do not find it surprising that longtime allies of NPO, Echelon and MCXA, have put together Agora along with NPO so in essence it combines the Blue and Red spheres economically tech speaking.

NPO is desperate enough for tech that it is willing to cause separation in the blue sphere? It is obvious that NPO's interests are not just in tech. They are in several blocs and can trade tech with their numerous allies. GATO is only allowed to do tech deals with NPO and I'm sure they have an abundance of sellers. The fact that NPO is in a position to influence politics in the blue sphere is what makes their membership in Agora significant.

[MaGneT]

It is very disappointing to see some of the reactions in this thread to our invitation.

Well, in other news, Firebolt is going to make a great Senator, and UBD is really good at old school arcade games. Everyone be sure to come by and mess around at Agora's arcade!

Surely with a bloc of over 1500 nations you can hold two senate seats, no?

[watchman]

Surely with a bloc of over 1500 nations you can hold two senate seats, no?

We will. Drai is a popular guy of late, though.

[Choader]

D. The Senate seats of blue sphere will be held by members of this agreement chosen by the signatories and all blue signatory members will vote for this slate of candidates as such.

So isn't Drai in violation of the Agora charter?

[Tygaland]

We're a bit tired of saying we're open to work towards a consensus in this thread...

I see a lot of saying but no actions to support the words. In fact, many people speaking for Agora have said numerous times that bloc stability overrides blue team unity. So, taking that into account, it seems unlikely that Agora is working towards blue team unity but rather increasing the stability and political and economic strength of the Agora bloc. All well and good but, for the love of Mano, please stop trying to advertise Agora as a blue unity bloc.

It isn't. The words and actions of Agora show it isn't. So just call a spade a spade and move on.

[Lusitan]

I see a lot of saying but no actions to support the words. In fact, many people speaking for Agora have said numerous times that bloc stability overrides blue team unity. So, taking that into account, it seems unlikely that Agora is working towards blue team unity but rather increasing the stability and political and economic strength of the Agora bloc. All well and good but, for the love of Mano, please stop trying to advertise Agora as a blue unity bloc.

It isn't. The words and actions of Agora show it isn't. So just call a spade a spade and move on.

What you, and many others, seem to be missing out is that Blue Team unity is not about everyone being on the same bloc. It's about alliances being able to work together for the good of the team. That will not happen if we just throw in all alliances in the same bloc, they are not going to start to get along because they share a bloc. That is achieved by the alliances interacting in order to solve pendent issues and develop a common basis from where they can start working.

Ultimately, the bloc stability and qualitative (the capacity of cooperation between alliances) unity are the same thing. Does that mean that quantitative blue unity (every single blue alliance being in the bloc) will be achieved immediatelly? No. There's a long road. But I, personally, believe it's a road that can be walked in fairly easier way and that will produce much more desirable results than a bloc where member alliances might have unsolved issues between eachother.

So we need to be sure those issues are solved, otherwise, why having a bloc? That's why we have an Application process, so that those issues are solved. Not to exclude people. Not to ostracize alliances. Just to solve pendent issues. That gets us to the invitation we made on the OP of this thread, which I believe is a honest step towards blue unity. Keep in mind though it's a two-direction road, the one of blue unity.

[deth2munkies]

What you, and many others, seem to be missing out is that Blue Team unity is not about everyone being on the same bloc. It's about alliances being able to work together for the good of the team. That will not happen if we just throw in all alliances in the same bloc, they are not going to start to get along because they share a bloc. That is achieved by the alliances interacting in order to solve pendent issues and develop a common basis from where they can start working.

Ultimately, the bloc stability and qualitative (the capacity of cooperation between alliances) unity are the same thing. Does that mean that quantitative blue unity (every single blue alliance being in the bloc) will be achieved immediatelly? No. There's a long road. But I, personally, believe it's a road that can be walked in fairly easier way and that will produce much more desirable results than a bloc where member alliances might have unsolved issues between eachother.

So we need to be sure those issues are solved, otherwise, why having a bloc? That's why we have an Application process, so that those issues are solved. Not to exclude people. Not to ostracize alliances. Just to solve pendent issues. That gets us to the invitation we made on the OP of this thread, which I believe is a honest step towards blue unity. Keep in mind though it's a two-direction road, the one of blue unity.

What you're saying here is that you're not attempting to dissuade blue unity, not that you are striving for it. It's amazing how you change your tune so easily.

Look, Agora is not, has never been and will never be a blue unity bloc. It was borne out of a divisive time and is not a blue team bloc. It's been beaten to death in this thread and all you really have to do is stop with the "blue unity" propaganda and just acknowledge that this is a blue power bloc. Power =/= unity. Your bloc's job is to work towards the goals of your members, NOT the blue team.