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An Agora Announcement


Firebolt

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With all due respect, this bloc is a Red and Blue Economic sphere. If a seller chooses to sell tech in a long term one on one deal, Agora can facilitate it. If that person finds a red or blue buyer does not matter, as long as he gets his $3M. NpO, GR and the rest of the blue sphere does not get that tech because they have refused to join. That is up to them. We certainly won't shove tech down their throats.

Thats ok. MK, GR, and NpO can continue to buy tech from =WE=, and other alliances, in long, and short, term deals. They sure dont seem to mind having to find outside sources of tech and not signing treaties with them stating that they are "just buying tech".

In fact, I have invited NpO and GR in this very thread. What else can I do?

Admit what this treaty is actually about and end the entire "debate" once and for all.

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I'm glad you added that because you are addressing accusations which I did not make B)

Certainly, alliances are allowed to sign whatever they want. It is the claim that Agora is about Blue Unity which has incited the argument again.

Penguin indicated that Polar had been given a strong hint that that was the case earlier in the thread.

I've told Grub otherwise.

Except you have already confirmed that at least one alliance has already been refused membership.

That was a specific case, that actually did not have anything to do with BLEU but rather other blocs.

Taken at face value, Agora has no meaning. It is about tech trading (which doesn't require a treaty), trading (which make no sense with the NPO involved) and Senate control through non-violent means (which doesn't require a treaty). None of those things adequately explain why a partial 'Blue unity treaty' was signed at the time that it was, excluding the ex-BLEU alliances. Thus, people see things that perhaps are not there as the 'real' motivation for the treaty. Also, it has the NPO in it which makes it a tin-foil magnet.

It is symbolic of friendship between the signatories. It gave the members what they wanted, I don't think it really matters what others think unless the treaty directly effects their security (which this does not).

Thats ok. MK, GR, and NpO can continue to buy tech from =WE=, and other alliances, in long, and short, term deals. They sure dont seem to mind having to find outside sources of tech and not signing treaties with them stating that they are "just buying tech".

Good for you, you chose to do it different. Nobody is denying you can, thats just one option people choose to utilize.

Admit what this treaty is actually about and end the entire "debate" once and for all.

Its been gone over multiple times. It seems that you want people to admit to tin foil hat conspiracies that do not exist. You would think people would eventually learn.

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A peanut gallery member, who has never been inside Agora's economic forums claimed earlier that NPO had no reason to join Agora, because Agora had no tech to give them. This was news to me, so I had to make up some other reason for joining. Sorry for the confusion.

No that's fine. If NPO is in Agora to gain access to more tech sellers and avoid Vox disrupting things that is understandable. I just don't see how that benefits Blue Team so much as, keeping things internal, like most of Orange does. Since Agora isn't a military treaty, what does NPO offer the large nations on Blue Team that now have fewer tech deals available to them?

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I'm very happy to see the commitment that many of you seem to have towards sphere unity. This post is not meant to refuse those kind gestures, but to clarify the position the rest of us are in. Perhaps, if you are able to see our side clearly, you will understand what must be done to unite the sphere.

It's very unlikely that Polar or another Blue alliance would feel comfortable filing an application until assurances are made that every other blue alliance is both willing and able to join Agora. That implies an open invitation and significant discussion and not an open call for applications which may or may not be accepted.

So, any Blue alliance is welcome, but at least one has already been rejected? (And Polaris clearly given strong signals that it should not try applying, too.)
Sorry, Bob, I should have made it clear that it was not Polaris in particular who I was told would probably be rejected from Agora. However, Polaris, and I assume much of the rest of the sphere, would not consider abandoning her other allies on the sphere to join a team treaty. Abandonment is the absolute opposite of unity and many of the alliances left out of Agora know a few things about sticking with their allies through the worst of times.

The issue is not entirely on Agora's side either, as some remaining blue alliances may not feel comfortable with an ODP level treaty to some of the alliances in Agora. I think they would prefer to start from scratch with something that required a lower level of military commitment for everyone. These are accommodations that I do not expect to mesh with the current leaders of Agora, but please tell me if I am mistaken.

The heart of the issue, however, is that the rest of the sphere feels that joining Agora through private discussions, one at a time, is a betrayal of the trust of their allies who either don't wish to join the bloc or else would not be permitted inside. You have initiated talks with some alliances individually and in secret, which, in my opinion, is an absolutely unacceptable way to achieve unity. The most viable path for Blue team unity now, at least on the trade and senate front, lies in a yet unwritten treaty that allows you to maintain the exclusivity of Agora and allows simultaneous entry of the entire sphere on equal footing.

Sometimes sacrifices need to be made in the interest of unity. If Agora is an unsuitable vessel for either party, then I expect there to be a willingness to compromise and reach trade and senate unity via another path.

Edited by Penguin
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No offense, but I start feeling like my time would be better spent arguing with a wall rather than arguing with you.

I didn't say we cannot find tech buyers. I said that Agora facilitates doing business among it's member alliances. Pretty simple, please stop trying to distort it.

Second, one of the Treaty's goals is indeed promote Blue Unity. However, the primary objective is to provide economic benefits to its signatories, as I already said. We use Pacifica for nothing but doing business and vice-versa. Finally, you're clearly an important and wise person who ought to be consulted on what is better for Agora but, seeing as the symbiosis between Agora and Pacifica is working for the reasons I already presented and you refused to read, thanks but no thanks.

Perhaps if you'd stop repeating the party line like a broken record and think of an independent argument for yourself once in a while, the debate would be more interesting.

You said:

There are alliances with excess technology to sell. Pacifica is interested in buying. I believe this constitutes enough economic reason for Pacifica to be there.

That tells you that some people can't find tech to sell to anyone on the blue sphere which is borderline impossible.

OK, so you admit that blue unity is nothing but a side project for the treaty, and being that it involves around 50% of the blue team and 100% of the red team, the statistical skew is so obvious that it can't really be touted as "THE BLUE UNITY TREATY" that you are espousing that it is.

You also have yet to give me a negative reason as to why the NPO needs to be in this treaty. So far in this thread there has been:

We work together.

They're cool.

It's a cross-team treaty.

These are all positive, or "why not" reasons. There haven't been any negative reasons, ie If the NPO weren't part of this bloc it would hurt X. Without negative reasons, the NPO is merely in the bloc on a whim, and is thus unnecessary and not conducive to blue team unity. Without a powerful negative reason outweighing those negatives, I would consider the NPO to be an unnecessary addition and this entire bloc a joke.

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The heart of the issue, however, is that the rest of the sphere feels that joining Agora through private discussions, one at a time, is a betrayal of the trust of their allies who either don't wish to join the bloc or else would not be permitted inside. You have initiated talks with some alliances individually and in secret, which, in my opinion, is an absolutely unacceptable way to achieve unity. The most viable path for Blue team unity now, at least on the trade and senate front, lies in a yet unwritten treaty that allows you to maintain the exclusivity of Agora and allows simultaneous entry of the entire sphere on equal footing.

So, you are suggesting some sort of econ treaty lower than an ODP? Like SNOW? Not a bad idea. Write it up and let's take a look at it.

Without negative reasons, the NPO is merely in the bloc on a whim, and is thus unnecessary and not conducive to blue team unity. Without a powerful negative reason outweighing those negatives, I would consider the NPO to be an unnecessary addition and this entire bloc a joke.

This is an ODP bloc. When an alliance cancels an ODP, most people say "oh, well, who cares? It is just an ODP." Whenever the Agora ODP is mentioned, shrill cries of Pacifica tyranny ring through the halls. They are a part of this bloc on a whim? That fits since mostly what we do is play in the arcade.

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This is an ODP bloc. When an alliance cancels an ODP, most people say "oh, well, who cares? It is just an ODP." Whenever the Agora ODP is mentioned, shrill cries of Pacifica tyranny ring through the halls. They are a part of this bloc on a whim? That fits since mostly what we do is play in the arcade.

This is for 2 reasons:

1) The NPO is in tons of blocs already and this one is largely redundant.

2) It is being called (by you and your buddies) a blue unity bloc, yet the NPO is in it, which seems to suggest blue unity is impossible without the NPO backing you up which is disturbing.

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Gopher has a free BBQ and I've never been invited :(

I'm a master at BBQ too!

Congrats on your Blue team senate nomination and a special congrats to UBD on their stunning arcade tournament victory (I think it's plain to see which alliance has more free time :P)

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Polaris is not seeking to join Agora at this time for reasons which will largely remain our own.

It should be noted however, we have our own treaties on Blue along with a few others including one with the NPO. I fail to see the need to have redundancy with a lower level treaty with them. We have no treaties with most Agora alliances, nor do we seek them, desire them or need them. I am sure if I want to sell tech to the NPO, I will not need to be a member of Agora.

As far as economics go, we are doing okay according to the latest statistics, I am not sure what value there is in Agora for us economically.

As far as the matter of rejection, Polaris has never applied to join, however as Triyun rightly points out, we have been both invited and given positive indications as to our acceptance. We have never put it to the test and therefore arguments to that end are largely hypothetical. As Penguin says however, it has been made abundantly clear via numerous sources that not all of our treaty partners will be accepted if they apply. There is no blue unity without Polaris and her friends, we can not be ignored or dismissed as irrelevant to blue unity.

The notion of working together and not disrupting the bloc is a valid point from Agora, and so we shall not interrupt their arrangements with our presence. People have to respect their stance, whether you believe it is valid or not, the bloc members should have some say over who enters their bloc.

Polaris is not, nor will we ever be under my leadership, anti-Agora. They are free to do whatever it is that makes them the happiest, whilst we are free to do whatever we believe to be right for us.

As to questions of the NPO's involvement, they are simple to answer and even blind freddy could see why their expertise in organization and management would be a major asset to a virgin bloc trying to find its way without many of the acknowledged Blue alliances participating. They are assisting their 1V partners and I fail to see how that is not a sensible thing for the MCXA and Echelon.

For the smaller alliances joining, I can see the direct benefit to them.

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Polaris is not seeking to join Agora at this time for reasons which will largely remain our own.

Oh... :( :( :(

We'll still let you play in our arcade !! :D:D :D

But, UBD would probably crush you guys, anyway... ;) ;) ;)

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As Penguin says however, it has been made abundantly clear via numerous sources that not all of our treaty partners will be accepted if they apply.

I'm telling you right now that ANY blue alliance that peacefully seeks to join and desires to become a cooperative partner will not be automatically turned away.

There is no blue unity without Polaris and her friends, we can not be ignored or dismissed as irrelevant to blue unity.

Exactly. I still hold out hope that day.

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I'm telling you right now that ANY blue alliance that peacefully seeks to join and desires to become a cooperative partner will not be automatically turned away.

Quoted for truth.

I've contacted Penguin via PM asking for specific names of people and alliances. I still hope to hear back from him.

Me thinks NPO have it in for UBD now... <gulp>

"Any alliance that beats NPO at Tetris or PacMan gets rolled."

-The Triyun Doctrine

Edited by watchman
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I've contacted Penguin via PM asking for specific names of people and alliances. I still hope to hear back from him.

For goodness sakes, just ask your other Agora allies and you'll figure out the answer on your own. I keep what is said to me in query confidential whenever possible. Don't push me into a corner in public or I just might have to tell you in public. If you are so certain that none of the blue alliances would be rejected, go accept them all before they even put in an application and then drop me a line.

I'm telling you right now that ANY blue alliance that peacefully seeks to join and desires to become a cooperative partner will not be automatically turned away.

I've heard this a number of times in this thread so let me clarify. No one is suggesting that certain alliances are not free to apply and we don't need to be told it over and over again. The issue is that certain alliances have been and most likely will be rejected by a single objector. As watchman put it:

You have no idea why they were denied entrance. In fact, I don't, either. This is because unanimous consent is required for approval. The alliance in question had an objector. Sovereign alliances vote however they choose and are not required explain anything. We're actually still hoping to get them involved in Agora some day. It just did not work out this go around.

If alliances can be rejected by a single objector without even stating a reason, what chance would you imagine the rest of your sphere has for unanimous entry? How can you call this unity when one alliance on the blue sphere can shut out another from receiving common grounds for trade without even citing a reason?

What you seem to expect is for alliances to apply one by one and be accepted or rejected one by one. Let me be as clear as possible, that mode of entry into Agora cannot and will not happen. It is ironic that the reason we're unwilling to abandon our friends and apply to Agora knowing they'd probably be rejected and left out in the cold is exactly the same as the one you claim to pursue, unity. If you understand unity, you will understand why it is not acceptable to persuade individual alliances into applying to Agora one at a time with the odds of success as low as they are for the friends they leave behind. If you understand unity, you will extend an open invitation to your entire sphere to join with no strings or applications attached. On the other hand, if you do not understand unity then you will feed me a line about preserving the identity of your bloc (a line I have been fed a few times before), thus demonstrating that you have elevated Agora unity to a position above Blue unity, while we in Polaris are unwilling to do so.

Like I told watchman by PM, come back to me when every single alliance in Agora has voted on and accepted every other Blue team alliance, application or not, and then we might have something to talk about. Until then, I sincerely wish you the best of luck and much happiness in your bloc. I like seeing alliances get along and have fun together more than you think, and I see Agora as a group of alliances that are all very similar in nature and seem to get along well. It is simply a grouping that we do not see eye to eye with on the true meaning of unity and thus cannot even consider joining until those issues are resolved.

Edited by Penguin
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For goodness sakes, just ask your other Agora allies and you'll figure out the answer on your own. I keep what is said to me in query confidential whenever possible. Don't push me into a corner in public or I just might have to tell you in public. If you are so certain that none of the blue alliances would be rejected, go accept them all before they even put in an application and then drop me a line.

You brought it up, publicly. What am I supposed to do other than question your source?

Like I told watchman by PM, come back to me when every single alliance in Agora has voted on and accepted every other Blue team alliance, application or not, and then we might have something to talk about.

We're supposed to vote on EVERY alliance in the blue sphere? Why would we have a bloc, then? Why not just proclaim domination of the sphere? I've never heard of an alliance entering a bloc without applying.

edit:However, Penguin, if you send me a list of every blue sphere alliance, I will give it a shot.

Edited by watchman
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You are missing the point. A colour unity treaty and a bloc are fundamentally different; for a successful colour unity treaty, either the treaty (not the ability to apply to the treaty, but to become a member) must be open to all alliances on the colour, or certain rights must be explicitly assigned even to non-member alliances (at which point you don't need all alliances to sign for it to work). You cannot claim your treaty is designed to promote unity while at the same time forcing alliances to apply and potentially be rejected.

On Aqua with ICE we took the first route, in spirit if not in legality (ICE doesn't actually contain a clause about how to join, but it was open to all on Aqua, and had signatories from all parts of the web at that time), although it does also specify the right of residence and the right of free trade and Senate for all. On Green with the UJA we took the second route, with the right to residence and the right to free Senate given to all Green nations, not just the signatories.

With Agora you do neither; entry is strictly controlled (basically, everyone has a veto), and there are no rights of residence, trade, freedom from sanction or freedom of Senate given to all Blue nations, and in fact explicitly claim the Senate for Agora alliances – theoretically at least taking a right from non-signatories.

Edit: I just looked up the OUT, as possibly the most successful unity treaty in history. It is somewhat ambiguous about whether any alliance may enter:

Section I

This treaty is open to all Orange Team Alliances, provided they agree to be bound by its terms.

Section II

New signatories may be admitted to this treaty by a unanimous vote from the Citrus Council

However, I have never heard of anyone being rejected from OUT.

Edited by Bob Janova
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You are missing the point. A colour unity treaty and a bloc are fundamentally different; for a successful colour unity treaty, either the treaty (not the ability to apply to the treaty, but to become a member) must be open to all alliances on the colour, or certain rights must be explicitly assigned even to non-member alliances (at which point you don't need all alliances to sign for it to work). You cannot claim your treaty is designed to promote unity while at the same time forcing alliances to apply and potentially be rejected.

Thanks for the thought, Bob. I looked up BLEU's old treaty also. It was explicitly a Unity treaty and it contained this:

B. New guys can join us as full signatories if they ask nicely and are approved unanimously by the existing signatories.

Not eloquent, but you see the point.

Anyway, I think we had never considered anything other than BLEU as a model for blue unity. Perhaps we should have looked at ICE and OUT more. For the time being, it is what it is. I do find it interesting that the same people that bemoan the loss of BLEU cry "foul" at an entrance policy that is exactly the same.

I smell hypocrisy!

EDIT: I also want to point out that the process of the one applicant who has not made into signatory status is NOT over. There were a number of issues that included, as Triyun pointed out, another bloc. We still need to work that all out.

Edited by watchman
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