An Agora Announcement

[watchman]

Unity is an all or nothing quality.

This is the kind of faulty thinking that causes wars. We will not force anyone to be a signatory. We will not war blue into unity. We invite everyone. The choice is up to them as sovereign alliances.

Every time I have contacted any one of these alliances in question, I have received long lectures on the Coalition War, evils of blue treachery and blah blah blah..... Until all that's behind us, we're stuck. The fact that NADC, MCXA, and Echelon can be so close after last year's events ought to be an example to other alliances. Sometimes you have to forgive and forget. This example is ignored, I fear.

yada yada yada....blah blah...we have been over this same crap so many times now its getting boring.

this ^^^

I am on the outside looking in but my perception would line up with KK's: because Agora was set up as an almost explicit 'anti-BLEU', it has too much baggage to ever function as a vehicle for Blue Unity.

I disagree. I think the blue sphere's polarization is caused by an unnecessary animosity floating about and it is that baggage that will continue to hinder any of Agora's efforts. We were not anti-BLEU we were an improvement on a broken BLEU.

If you truly seek a united Blue you need to set to with all the major Blue alliances to draft a new treaty, and take out the parts of Agora that would clash with it (notably the Senate clause).

This has been tried. It was basically an NAP - a start to a conversation. NADC signed on to it. I don't know what happened after that.

Edited February 15, 2009 by watchman

[Blacky]

Summary: Agora is a big dumb joke because NPO is involved.

Response: Turns out, NPO is not that evil. I know! I was surprised, too!

It's not a joke. Jokes are funny. NPO on the other hand, not so funny. NPO wants to be involved in the Blue sphere. Since the stance of Agora is more of a "we're the new Blue unity thing in town" it's a means of stopping ex-BLEU alliances which left during WW5 from reuniting with alliances on the other side and also of NPO continuing to have a say over those alliances. BLEU commanded way too much power to be left uncontested.

[HeinousOne]

This should be obvious and I can only assume you are deliberately not seeing it due to the fact that Pacifica has a vested interest in the Blue alliances in Agora exporting tech to you. A tech deal benefits both parties, and therefore it is in the best interests of any entity (alliance, bloc or colour) to keep both sides of the deal internal. If you buy the line that Agora is supposed to be about Blue Unity then it clearly makes sense for the sake of Blue economies to keep the deals on Blue.

Pacifica has no vested interest in getting tech exported to me but of course they do have such to their own membership. If certain blue alliances feel that seeing some tech exported from Blue to a different color sphere is not a big deal then that is their sovereign right to do so and it is pretty harsh for you to come down on them in such a way and I would appreciate it if you would not find politically correct ways of trying to say I am stupid.

Echelon and MCXA have been allies with NPO for quite awhile so I am sure they have no problems with seeing their longtime allies receiving tech from the Blue Sphere. It is pretty obvious that You have a problem with such but unfortunately you are not a signatory of Agora I suppose.

Please do not reply with yet another response towards Pacifica if you respond to this, tired of seeing a lack of simple observation.

[Jipps]

This is the kind of faulty thinking that causes wars. We will not force anyone to be a signatory. We will not war blue into unity. We invite everyone. The choice is up to them as sovereign alliances.

Every time I have contacted any one of these alliances in question, I have received long lectures on the Coalition War, evils of blue treachery and blah blah blah..... Until all that's behind us, we're stuck. The fact that NADC, MCXA, and Echelon can be so close after last year's events ought to be an example to other alliances. Sometimes you have to forgive and forget. This example is ignored, I fear.

It's understandable that you need to forgive and forget, however that doesn't mean alliances must forget history. Without it we have nothing to make judgements on such things as loyalty and other traits that are neccisary for the game.

If a team bloc fails to take in all 3 senate seat holders, then it is divisive.

[Bob Janova]

HeinousOne: you seem to be taking offence where there is none. If the alliances of Agora feel it is in their interests to export tech outside Blue, then of course it is their right to do so. My point is simply that if that is their belief and their action, then Agora is not there to improve the economy of Blue and promote Blue Unity.

I have no problem with Echelon and MCXA doing business with whoever they like (well, I would prefer for MCXA to strengthen themselves as they are allies of mine ). I don't really have a problem here at all actually, but I do think that it is disingenious to try to claim that Agora is promoting Blue Unity at the same time as doing actions through it which help a non-Blue alliance and keeping some Blue alliances from that help. The problem is only that Agora is claiming it is for Blue Unity, not with its actions which are perfectly reasonable for a group of friendly alliances.

(Also I didn't realise you left the NPO.)

[Ejayrazz]

I don't really have a problem here at all actually, but I do think that it is disingenious to try to claim that Agora is promoting Blue Unity at the same time as doing actions through it which help a non-Blue alliance and keeping some Blue alliances from that help.

In time my friend, in time. Unity doesn't come in a day, especially since we were apart of the green sphere, you should know this. It is a step in the light, to get there, it'll take diplomacy, time, and naked midgets.

[Jtkode]

seems extremely necessary to post this topic.

[Jipps]

seems extremely necessary to post this topic.

All the cool kids seem to be doing it.

[MaGneT]

I disagree. I think the blue sphere's polarization is caused by an unnecessary animosity floating about and it is that baggage that will continue to hinder any of Agora's efforts. We were not anti-BLEU we were an improvement on a broken BLEU.

Fixing a broken BLEU?

Coalition enemies forced instability onto BLEU by including the cancellation of that treaty in the surrender terms of most alliances. Instead of reaching out a helping hand, a contesting bloc, RTA, was formed on the blue sphere. Why? Not for blue team unity. Nor to help BLEU.

Need I say why it's there yet again?

[keltoi]

HeinousOne: you seem to be taking offence where there is none. If the alliances of Agora feel it is in their interests to export tech outside Blue, then of course it is their right to do so. My point is simply that if that is their belief and their action, then Agora is not there to improve the economy of Blue and promote Blue Unity.

I have no problem with Echelon and MCXA doing business with whoever they like (well, I would prefer for MCXA to strengthen themselves as they are allies of mine ). I don't really have a problem here at all actually, but I do think that it is disingenious to try to claim that Agora is promoting Blue Unity at the same time as doing actions through it which help a non-Blue alliance and keeping some Blue alliances from that help. The problem is only that Agora is claiming it is for Blue Unity, not with its actions which are perfectly reasonable for a group of friendly alliances.

(Also I didn't realise you left the NPO.)

Agora is for Blue unity, the fact that the "opposing" bloc of blue alliances choose not to join doesn't change this. Agora will continue to achieve stability for our members, nothing else really matters.

[RandomInterrupt]

Agora is for Blue unity, the fact that the "opposing" bloc of blue alliances choose not to join doesn't change this. Agora will continue to achieve stability for our members, nothing else really matters.

Sweet jebus you can't really be this dense. Stop saying words if you do not know what they mean. Either the word unity does not mean what you think it means, or you just enjoy butchering my language. Stop doing that. I like my language and I like the words in it. I like what they mean and when you do this thing, this thing where you take a word and pretend it means something totally different, you remove that words ability to have meaning. Stop while there are still words left!

And that doesn't just go for you buddy. It goes for everyone in this thread who is ignorant of the English language and how to use it.

[Baden-Württemberg]

Fixing a broken BLEU?

Coalition enemies forced instability onto BLEU by including the cancellation of that treaty in the surrender terms of most alliances. Instead of reaching out a helping hand, a contesting bloc, RTA, was formed on the blue sphere. Why? Not for blue team unity. Nor to help BLEU.

Need I say why it's there yet again?

Yes please, I am sure you know better than me why Agora was formed.....

[raasaa]

I disagree. I think the blue sphere's polarization is caused by an unnecessary animosity floating about and it is that baggage that will continue to hinder any of Agora's efforts. We were not anti-BLEU we were an improvement on a broken BLEU.

and why did it break in the first place ?

Agora is for Blue unity, the fact that the "opposing" bloc of blue alliances choose not to join doesn't change this. Agora will continue to achieve stability for our members, nothing else really matters.

well then...all the very best in your ventures o/

[Baden-Württemberg]

and why did it break in the first place ?

As far as I remember someone in GDA spied on Agora, and although no one knew of it, and we could have solved it diplomatically all BLEU alliances freaked out and left BLEU.

And to Random Interrupt:

I don't see a problem with trying to achieve blue unity. We don't have complete and full blue unity yet, but that's also because of people like you, so stop blaming us for it. However, it is good to see, that there is unity among the Membership which is very important and a good start in the right direction.

[raasaa]

As far as I remember someone in GDA spied on Agora, and although no one knew of it, and we could have solved it diplomatically all BLEU alliances freaked out and left BLEU.

Let me requote what watchman stated....since you didnt seem to understand what i was trying to say.....:lol:

I disagree. I think the blue sphere's polarization is caused by an unnecessary animosity floating about and it is that baggage that will continue to hinder any of Agora's efforts. We were not anti-BLEU we were an improvement on a broken BLEU.

How is Agora an improvement on something that was not broken at the time of its conception ??

[MaGneT]

Agora is for Blue unity, the fact that the "opposing" bloc of blue alliances choose not to join doesn't change this. Agora will continue to achieve stability for our members, nothing else really matters.

Bwahhahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahah!

Ha!

Yes please, I am sure you know better than me why Agora was formed.....

I'll say it for the 9001st time in this thread alone.

RTA was created for the sole purpose of establishing a counterbalance to BLEU on the blue sphere. It remains in existence to keep that counterbalance with the ex-BLEU group.

[keltoi]

Sweet jebus you can't really be this dense. Stop saying words if you do not know what they mean. Either the word unity does not mean what you think it means, or you just enjoy butchering my language. Stop doing that. I like my language and I like the words in it. I like what they mean and when you do this thing, this thing where you take a word and pretend it means something totally different, you remove that words ability to have meaning. Stop while there are still words left!

And that doesn't just go for you buddy. It goes for everyone in this thread who is ignorant of the English language and how to use it.

I don't think i'm the one being dense here dude, Every member of Agora would like to see unity on the Blue team, however people like you make that difficult. It doesn't change the fact that we desire it anyway.

Stability is achieved by providing a safe, pleasant atmosphere in which to rule our nations as we see fit.

Agora is under no threat, the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us, stability achieved.

[RandomInterrupt]

I don't see a problem with trying to achieve blue unity. We don't have complete and full blue unity yet, but that's also because of people like you, so stop blaming us for it. However, it is good to see, that there is unity among the Membership which is very important and a good start in the right direction.

however people like you make that difficult. It doesn't change the fact that we desire it anyway.

What have I done and what I am doing that makes it difficult? You two have brought that up, so please explain. I thought I was retired and simply showed up to point out that several of you have no idea what the word "unity" means. Please, tell me what I am doing to prevent it.

[Bob]

I don't think i'm the one being dense here dude, Every member of Agora would like to see unity on the Blue team, however people like you make that difficult. It doesn't change the fact that we desire it anyway.

Stability is achieved by providing a safe, pleasant atmosphere in which to rule our nations as we see fit.

Agora is under no threat, the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us, stability achieved.

I'm sorry, people like him make it difficult? Ha, I love how the problem attempts to call itself the solution and claim superiority when they /reject/ people. Please explain to me how it is possible that you all want unity on the Blue team but yet you won't accept a sovereign alliance applying to join you. Or is it not all of you, and only some? And if you are mistaken about that, what else are you mistaken about?

And we had that stability before Agora on the blue team and we will have it after Agora.

Are you saying that Agora is threatening the non Agora blue team alliances? If they live under your threat, thats kinda not a good sounding thing, are you forcing them into Agora or something? And doesn't that statement go against basically everything that has been said by Agora representatives in this thread? I personally don't quite understand what you are saying here :/

[MaGneT]

I don't think i'm the one being dense here dude, Every member of Agora would like to see unity on the Blue team, however people like you make that difficult. It doesn't change the fact that we desire it anyway.

Stability is achieved by providing a safe, pleasant atmosphere in which to rule our nations as we see fit.

Agora is under no threat, the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us, stability achieved.

Tell me, Celtmark, does the isolationist red team alliance in RTA really want blue unity? What does it matter to them anyway? Why are they the largest member in a unity bloc on a different sphere?

What has RTA done to promote unity? Absolutely nothing.

RTA is an economic extension of 1V. It has nothing to do with the blue sphere, and it needs to stop masquerading itself as a blue unity treaty.

EDIT: Wow, after re-reading your asinine post, I realized something.

1) Stability =/= Unity

2) Oppression, which is your claimed vehicle for said stability, is definitely not something you'd expect from a purely economic bloc, correct?

3) Please teach me how to dig my own grave like that, I can't afford life insurance.

Edited February 15, 2009 by MaGneT

[keltoi]

Tell me, Celtmark, does the isolationist red team alliance in RTA really want blue unity? What does it matter to them anyway? Why are they the largest member in a unity bloc on a different sphere?

What has RTA done to promote unity? Absolutely nothing.

RTA is an economic extension of 1V. It has nothing to do with the blue sphere, and it needs to stop masquerading itself as a blue unity treaty.

EDIT: Wow, after re-reading your asinine post, I realized something.

1) Stability =/= Unity

2) Oppression, which is your claimed vehicle for said stability, is definitely not something you'd expect from a purely economic bloc, correct?

3) Please teach me how to dig my own grave like that, I can't afford life insurance.

wow, arent you intelligent

i claimed stability through opression?

[MaGneT]

wow, arent you intelligent

i claimed stability through opression?

Of course you didn't say that! How silly of me to suggest such blasphemous things! That would be damaging to RTA's credibility and not along the party lines! Goodness, gracious! I may be excommunicated for my insolence!

Yeah, you said it. I'd suggest reading your own words, cutie.

Agora is under no threat, the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us, stability achieved.

Protip: When shooting a gun, be sure to have it pointed away from your own foot.

[Penguin]

This is the kind of faulty thinking that causes wars. We will not force anyone to be a signatory. We will not war blue into unity. We invite everyone. The choice is up to them as sovereign alliances.

Every time I have contacted any one of these alliances in question, I have received long lectures on the Coalition War, evils of blue treachery and blah blah blah..... Until all that's behind us, we're stuck. The fact that NADC, MCXA, and Echelon can be so close after last year's events ought to be an example to other alliances. Sometimes you have to forgive and forget. This example is ignored, I fear.

Wars? Who said anything about wars. I'm telling you not to claim you are uniting the blue sphere in public and then telling us that you'd reject many blue team alliances in private. You have not invited everyone and I've already been told that many of my blue friends would be rejected should they apply. The reason they would be rejected is reasonable; they don't like you and you don't like them. If you think baby steps towards unity involves shutting them off from trades and the senate until you both get along, then you're mistaken. The one who is rushing ahead here is not me, it's you.

Agora is for Blue unity, the fact that the "opposing" bloc of blue alliances choose not to join doesn't change this. Agora will continue to achieve stability for our members, nothing else really matters.

You have made my point for me. Agora is all about the stability of its own members, not the stability of the Blue sphere. You continue to refuse entry to alliances who you don't get along with, as you are free to do. The fact that nothing else matters to you is evidence enough that this is not about Blue unity but about Agora unity. That in itself is perfectly reasonable, however it is not doing anything productive for the sphere at large.

Agora is under no threat, the non Agora blue team alliances live under threat from us, stability achieved.

Can you hear yourself, Celtmark? This is the absolute last thing that the Blue team needs. I'd say that your first step towards unity ought to be to stop threatening blue team alliances into joining Agora.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Penguin

[keltoi]

Of course you didn't say that! How silly of me to suggest such blasphemous things! That would be damaging to RTA's credibility and not along the party lines! Goodness, gracious! I may be excommunicated for my insolence!

Yeah, you said it. I'd suggest reading your own words, cutie.

Protip: When shooting a gun, be sure to have it pointed away from your own foot.

hahahaha what part of that statement is confusing you maget?

Agora is not a threat to any alliance, blue team or otherwise, sorry if that doesn't fit some preconcieved notion you have.

[Ejayrazz]

Wars? Who said anything about wars. I'm telling you not to claim you are uniting the blue sphere in public and then telling us that you'd reject many blue team alliances in private. You have not invited everyone and I've already been told that many of my blue friends would be rejected should they apply.

The same situation happened on the green team at one point, yet some alliances still called it "unity", which other alliances literally accepted it as such. Especially some notable alliances.

Dejavu.