Notes from Baghdad Bob

I'm sorry. I lied. I'm back. I just can't help myself, I feel like the bully on the playground and you're the kid who can't see without his glasses.

Really? Nothing you've said has been fabricated? What about in the OP, how you claim that DT is withholding facts, telling half truths as evidenced by logs... blah blah blah. You posted a snippet of logs, did not say anything else that occurred, and when Myworld posted the full ones, you looked like a jackass.

NOIR ties? We already addressed this in the thread. It's optional for a reason. Our relationship with Umbrella, to my knowledge, has not been nearly as good as our relationship with LoSS. So that solves that right there. As far as Sparta goes, they attacked our MDP partner without even a care that they had a treaty with us with the intent of keeping NOIR signatories like us out of the war. So don't spew that garbage.

As far as GR goes (though I do not know their involvement in this conflict), it's two MDP-level treaties versus one. NoR and NV were both at war too.

Still, nothing you've said has given any sort of explanation as to why DT deserves this treatment. Why? Because you have an agenda to push and you lack the intelligence and/or the argument to back that up.

Really? Nothing you've said has been fabricated? What about in the OP, how you claim that DT is withholding facts, telling half truths as evidenced by logs... blah blah blah. You posted a snippet of logs, did not say anything else that occurred, and when Myworld posted the full ones, you looked like a jackass.

You're literally insane. In the OP, I pointed out that DT went all crazy over "We are offering 40k tech and they refuse to accept because they want it only from our big nations!" and has done nothing to correct that false impression that most of CN has. Because it's convenient not to and turns them into a victim.

My snippet of logs showed substantially everything that happened. It shows that when CSN came back to accept the terms, DT changed the terms to white peace, and then CSN told them off. Is that not what happened? Yeah... that's what I thought. I don't see how I look like a jackass. I trimmed down hundreds of lines into a dozen or so, and got all the important parts in.

As far as GR goes (though I do not know their involvement in this conflict), it's two MDP-level treaties versus one. NoR and NV were both at war too.

It's two MDP level treaties vs. two MDP-level treaties. Brigade is on our side.

And 4 NOIR treaties on our side vs. 2 NOIR treaties on your side is what you activated on. Technically, you had more allies on our side of this war. AT WORST, you should have been neutral. Instead, you disregarded your treaties, picked the side you hated the most, and came up with a treaty chain to pull you in against them. Period.

Still, nothing you've said has given any sort of explanation as to why DT deserves this treatment. Why? Because you have an agenda to push and you lack the intelligence and/or the argument to back that up.

It's simple: CSN didn't like you attacking a side based on a conflicting ODP with alliances from that ODP involved on both sides. Regardless of whether reps were initially the right thing or not, you certainly proved with your actions during this war that you no longer deserve to have them reduced.

You're literally insane. In the OP, I pointed out that DT went all crazy over "We are offering 40k tech and they refuse to accept because they want it only from our big nations!" and has done nothing to correct that false impression that most of CN has. Because it's convenient not to and turns them into a victim.

My snippet of logs showed substantially everything that happened. It shows that when CSN came back to accept the terms, DT changed the terms to white peace, and then CSN told them off. Is that not what happened? Yeah... that's what I thought. I don't see how I look like a jackass. I trimmed down hundreds of lines into a dozen or so, and got all the important parts in.

And multiple NOIR treaties vs. 1. NOIR is what you activated on. You probably should have been neutral in this one seeing as you have a few treaties from each side.

It's simple: CSN didn't like you attacking a side based on a conflicting ODP with alliances from that ODP involved on both sides. Regardless of whether reps were initially the right thing or not, you certainly proved with your actions during this war that you no longer deserve to have them reduced.

I addressed all of this already. You might want to read previous posts.

The reason that the terms changed on our end was because DT's general membership heard we might actually accept that crap and went berserk. No one was going to chip in a penny to pay for it, because it is unwarranted. And you trimmed down Oz and MW's explanations, you conveniently cut out Liz having an adolescent temper tantrum and, the fact is, with logs, context is everything. Don't pretend that you didn't have an agenda when you picked and chose what lines you included.

As far as the treaties go, we picked the side that we had the best relationship with. The two NOIR signatories that we are on the opposite side of were never getting our support. That's why it's an optional pact. If you agree with an economic partner's reason for war, you can defend your economic interests. Sparta forfeited any consideration of that defense when they ignored our treaty with NV and attacked them anyway. Look at the facts. It makes you smarter.

I can't determine whats more pathetic here, CSN's attempt to get 40,000 units of tech out of a peripheral alliance of 48 or your attempt to justify those outrageous demands. I don't know what world CSN lives in that their husk of an alliance has the power, credibility or influence to ask for close to 1000 units of tech from every member let alone try and create terms intended to punish their top tiers. CSN may have close to 3x the membership of DT, but you guys are out of their league in almost every way. Give DT white peace and regain some semblance of class.

I addressed all of this already. You might want to read previous posts.

The reason that the terms changed on our end was because DT's general membership heard we might actually accept that crap and went berserk. No one was going to chip in a penny to pay for it, because it is unwarranted. And you trimmed down Oz and MW's explanations, you conveniently cut out Liz having an adolescent temper tantrum and, the fact is, with logs, context is everything. Don't pretend that you didn't have an agenda when you picked and chose what lines you included.

And I already addressed why Liz would react that way: It was a slap to the face. You might want to read the previous points.

As far as the treaties go, we picked the side that we had the best relationship with. The two NOIR signatories that we are on the opposite side of were never getting our support. That's why it's an optional pact. If you agree with an economic partner's reason for war, you can defend your economic interests. Sparta forfeited any consideration of that defense when they ignored our treaty with NV and attacked them anyway. Look at the facts. It makes you smarter.

Exactly. You didn't activate a treaty to defend an ally, you activated it to bandwagon on a war and hit a side you didn't like. Thanks for finally admitting it. ..And there's nothing wrong with that. But don't pretend that you're "just defending an ally" so you should get white peace. Look at the facts. It makes you smarter.

[The demand for 40,000 Tech for entering based on an ODP] was the truth at the onset. After all the things DT's done, though, is it really that surprising that CSN is not willing to go through yet another round of negotiations?

So now the story is:

"CSN demanded 40,000 Tech because DT entered the war based on an ODP. However, CSN is now demanding 40,000 Tech because DT wouldn't agree to the initial demand and refused to re-start talks that CSN had walked out of more than twenty-four hours before."

This is priceless.

On behalf of DT's allies and those on your own side who think CSN's demands are ridiculous, I really must thank you for delegating to yourself the responsibility of explaining this to the rest of the world. You've done a far better job than any of us could ever hope to do.

Is it me or has justification for actions taken in this game become more disgusting than the actions themselves?

So now the story is:

"CSN demanded 40,000 Tech because DT entered the war based on an ODP. However, CSN is now demanding 40,000 Tech because DT wouldn't agree to the initial demand and refused to re-start talks that CSN had walked out of more than twenty-four hours before."

This is priceless.

On behalf of DT's allies and those on your own side who think CSN's demands are ridiculous, I really must thank you for delegating to yourself the responsibility of explaining this to the rest of the world. You've done a far better job than any of us could ever hope to do.

No... that's not the claim. I must not have been clear. My statement is: 40K tech was initially asked for how the war was started. Then negotiations began. The negotiations have now ended because DT has 1) Tried to drag them through the mud (and used lies of omission to mislead the public), 2) Slapped them in the face by retracting terms on the table and replacing them with terms of "You surrender to us and we'll let you go."

What's priceless is that you're actually trying to argue THIS point with me. Is it not clear that CSN was willing to negotiate until both of the two items I listed happened? I thought this one was pretty obvious, Kingzog. When DT slapped them in the face, CSN walked away from negotiations. Fairly straightforward and I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

I'd say that you have no idea what surrender is but, you're Penkala.

I'd say that when one side has to apologize to the other, that's a surrender.

And I already addressed why Liz would react that way: It was a slap to the face. You might want to read the previous points.

Exactly. You didn't activate a treaty to defend an ally, you activated it to bandwagon on a war and hit a side you didn't like. Thanks for finally admitting it. ..And there's nothing wrong with that. But don't pretend that you're "just defending an ally" so you should get white peace. Look at the facts. It makes you smarter.

No, it was not a slap in the face. Telling us we have to pay 40,000 tech is just that. I would call what we did a move back to sanity.

As far as your bandwagoning allegation goes, that's a load of nonsense. I was simply describing how the treaty situation would have favored entry on this "side" regardless of what actually happened. I thought such theoretical things would be understood given the fact that we have quite concretely established that the reason that we are in this war is that our friends in LoSS asked us for help and we obliged.

EDIT: No. We included the apology, if you read further into the logs, to give CSN an opportunity to restore their image. We have no ill will against them if they return to sanity. If they do not want to apologize to DT, LoSS, Legacy, RnR and their own membership for prolonging the damages and costs of war, that is their prerogative. We did not mean it as any sort of surrender. Either Myworld or Oz says that quite plainly after Liz starting stomping her feet like Veruca Salt.

CSN is an alliance that I hold in high regard and I will not be adjusting that opinion until this is concluded. This blog sure as hell isn't helping them though.

Also: you wrote an apology into the terms as an opportunity to restore their image? Really? I cannot imagine any thought process where that seems reasonable and in the logs it looks like a backpedal.

No... that's not the claim. I must not have been clear. My statement is: 40K tech was initially asked for how the war was started. Then negotiations began. The negotiations have now ended because DT has 1) Tried to drag them through the mud (and used lies of omission to mislead the public), 2) Slapped them in the face by retracting terms on the table and replacing them with terms of "You surrender to us and we'll let you go."

What's priceless is that you're actually trying to argue THIS point with me. Is it not clear that CSN was willing to negotiate until both of the two items I listed happened? I thought this one was pretty obvious, Kingzog. When DT slapped them in the face, CSN walked away from negotiations. Fairly straightforward and I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

What I 'understand' is that CSN made a ridiculous demand and now they get to pay the PR 'price' for making it in the first place. My alliance had very good reasons for approaching people on your side of the war and asking that they intervene on DT's behalf. Most of the people I spoke with were quite sympathetic, and agreed that CSN was out of line in demanding such preposterous terms. (One notable exception was Xiphosis, who during our conversation put forth an argument that boiled down to 'might makes right'. At least he was being honest, though.) All we heard in response to our inquiries was that CSN's demands were final and non-negotiable.

The only reason you're out here trying to spin things is that CSN has made itself look foolish. Your alliance has painted itself into a corner, so now they've "sent in the clown" in a last-ditch attempt to lie their way out of it.

This nonsense accusation about 'bandwagoning' should stop right now, btw. Look at all the alliances who attacked others based not on existing treaties but on 'requests from friends'. Were they 'bandwagoning' as well? Be careful how you answer.

Anyway....

I'm done with this stupidity. Your argument is rubbish, your reason for making it transparent, and your lies in defence of it are well beyond the limits of anyone's credulity.

You think you can get 40,000 Tech from DT?

Pound sand, buddy.

40K tech was initially asked for how the war was started

Right, so CSN have been ridiculous since the outset. That's what I thought. You're trying to give Liz a free pass for her conduct, but that's far more applicable to DT who seem to have been less unprofessional than that, since the initial demand from CSN was so outrageous.

olol

Penkala is a bad white knight imo.

Penkala is a bad white knight imo.

he should learn more from rush tbh

1. Enter through an ODP

2. Wonder why demand for reparations

3. Bawwwww

4. See 3

5. Compare CSN to NPO

6. Claim SF is "just as bad as them"

7. "lololol Karma was a lie"

8. Bawwwwwwww

Wait so CSN waited until after update before resuming peace negotiations? So in theory they "attacked during peace talks". Wow.......Hypocrisy at its finest.

We left the talks with no peace on the table, nor a ceasefire which was offered and declined by DT. It was roughly 30 hours later after I had a discussion with Shamedmonkey (an old friend from Maroon) and some internal discussion amongst membership that we let DT know we'd like to accept their counter proposal from the previous talks. It was hardly attacking during peace talks. Please take your lies elsewhere.

CSN is an alliance that I hold in high regard and I will not be adjusting that opinion until this is concluded. This blog sure as hell isn't helping them though.

Also: you wrote an apology into the terms as an opportunity to restore their image? Really? I cannot imagine any thought process where that seems reasonable and in the logs it looks like a backpedal.

Reading back through, you're right, it does seem to look that way. I would consider that to be simply a miscue on the part of our guys. From what I understand, in back room internal discussions, white peace was supposed to be our counter-offer and the apology thing a suggestion to them out of good will. It was just presented improperly.

I'm not privy to all of the information though, so I could very much be incorrect.

Yes, NOIR ties. Also, your treaty with GR. You've only ever sought to active treaties on the opposite side of this war despite being tied about the same amount in both directions. You have this war because you hate the people on our side, not because you want to 'defend an ally' (whose only treaty with you is a color treaty.

This is false. The TALKS happened two days later, but CSN informed DT after 30 hours that they would accept the terms proposed by DT. Fact is, ONE (1) update passed which basically means ONE (1) day had passed. "By that time" -- one day later -- you no longer wanted to negotiate.

GR was not even in the war until recently and was involved via an aggression clause. Brigade was never attacked but went in aggressively. Sparta and Darkfall hit an ally of DT. Valhalla and Symphony are not involved in this war. NoR was involved but received peace.

so not sure what treaties we have ignored?

oh wait, much like the rest of your argument, it holds no water whatsoever.

as for CSN informing DT 30 hours later... and? you do realize that talks still need to take place because DT had to still discuss whether they accept this deal or not. at least we told CSN that it would be posted on the gov forums. so the talks took place after 2 days and DT felt the offer was no longer acceptable and counter-offered not once but twice. first time being the white peace and apology, second time being just white peace.

you also realized that nothing you said refuted my point. talks took place 2 days or 2 updates later. they may have queried a gov member that they found the deal acceptable, but DT still had to discuss and talks still needed to take place. neither did you refute the fact that CSN walked out and initially refused the offer.

Exactly. You didn't activate a treaty to defend an ally, you activated it to bandwagon on a war and hit a side you didn't like. Thanks for finally admitting it. ..And there's nothing wrong with that. But don't pretend that you're "just defending an ally" so you should get white peace. Look at the facts. It makes you smarter.

who was hit on your side? i already refuted everything you stated about why we should have entered on your side. if you include Umbrella- Umbrella declared an aggressive war without any sort of CB whatsoever and got hit for it. LoSS entered to defend an ally and got hit. Sparta/Darkfall hit an ally of DT. GR was not in until recently and to my knowledge have yet to be attacked and they entered aggressively as well. Valhalla/Symphony are not involved at all. NoR entered to defend an ally. NV entered to defend an ally but was hit by Sparta/Darkfall to negate DT/others from defending NV.

also, we entered via a treaty. glad to see you are trying to redefine bandwagon. not to mention Legacy aggressively hit LoSS alongside CSN and The Brain while LoSS was at war with Hydra. who was actually bandwagoning in? seriously, you have no clue what you speak of and then call someone else dumb. hahahahahahahahaha wow. you truly are an idiot.

Penkala is a bad white knight imo.

Why? DT's in the wrong here, and I'm not supporting them.

It's not just what they're saying on the forums. And yeah, this is not a 'free speech' issue. They're completely free to act like children in negotiations and then try to lie about it and make CSN look bad on the OWF. That means the terms are probably going to be harsher, though. And anything less would be unreasonable.

First, I've seen the logs. DT in no way acted like children.

Secondly, if we're going to be calling out peoples' behavior in negotiations....what about Liz then?

Lastly, CSN rejected DT's offer. Usually that's the end of it, and a new offer or compromise needs to be discussed. Never has it worked that you can choose to 'unrefuse' an offer.

First, I've seen the logs. DT in no way acted like children.

Secondly, if we're going to be calling out peoples' behavior in negotiations....what about Liz then?

Lastly, CSN rejected DT's offer. Usually that's the end of it, and a new offer or compromise needs to be discussed. Never has it worked that you can choose to 'unrefuse' an offer.

Sure you can 'unrefuse' an offer... why not?

We left the talks with no peace on the table, nor a ceasefire which was offered and declined by DT. It was roughly 30 hours later after I had a discussion with Shamedmonkey (an old friend from Maroon) and some internal discussion amongst membership that we let DT know we'd like to accept their counter proposal from the previous talks. It was hardly attacking during peace talks. Please take your lies elsewhere.

Right, the thing is you waited until after update you took damage and then you decided you wanted to take their other offer. I have a lot of faith in you guys, because I know you're better than this. If you guys said "yo, let's just white peace out. It's been a fun war." then I know for a fact DT would drop their apologize stance. Fact is keeping them at war, because of the way they entered is sooooo much freaking hypocrisy it's not funny. You guys do realize you didn't even use a !@#$@#$ treaty right? Had I not been friends with Liz and Gibs I would have made a big deal out of that then. Now, here you guys are doing whatever you want to again, because quite honestly at the moment no one can stop you. Well, let me tell you keep playing with fire and you'll get burned.

Sure you can 'unrefuse' an offer... why not?

Only when you're on the larger side. Had it been DT who refused an offer, only later to accept, you'd be doing it. Believe me, you'd be telling them it doesn't work that way.