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On the DT situation

Penkala

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I guess what really needs to be said is that DT is being less than truthful to the world. DT has absolutely NOT been willing to work with CSN. In fact, the last round of negotiations, CSN accepted DT's counter-offer. DT responded by withdrawing the offer. CSN went to see what their NEW offer would in order to work with them again to find a fair amount they could pay. DT's counter offer? "You give us complete white peace, except that you also publicly apologize to everyone on this side of the war".

No, I'm not making this up. CSN accepted DT's counter-offer, which they then withdrew. DT's idea of 'working with CSN'? CSN must surrender to THEM. And also give them white peace to allow them to re-enter the war on another front. CSN rightly told DT where they could stick those terms. DT absolutely refuses to negotiate in good faith, demanding, instead (as I have been saying for days now) white peace.

CSN is not an unreasonable alliance. Despite DT's continued attempts to drag them through the mud, CSN HAS been and IS willing to work with DT to negotiate and find a fair payment schedule and lighten the reps. They will NOT surrender to DT to end this war, though. The simple fact is that DT thinks they can continue to manipulate public perception of this conflict's negotiation to force CSN into giving them white peace. The last thing they told everyone, for example, was that they offered to pay 40k tech -- just that only 10k would come from DT. What they HAVEN'T found important for the public to know is that CSN accepted these the next day... but then DT changed their minds and decided that instead, their only offer on the table is CSN surrendering to them. Convenient that they've left that part out, isn't it? The problem is, if people knew the truth, they might not see DT as the victims in this.

(In full disclosure (something you WON'T get from DT)) they later dropped the 'apology' term and changed it to pure white peace).

If anyone who is involved in this wants to know the TRUTH, I suggest they talk to CSN somewhere else (as this isn't the place for this discussion).

But yeah. I'm getting kind of tired of nobody calling DT on their BS, so I will now. That's what really happened: CSN negotiated in good faith with DT and accepted DT's counter offer. DT then withdrew the counter offer and demanded CSN's surrender. All the while, DT's complaining on the OWF that they've offered CSN 40k tech in a different manner, but the big bad CSN refuses to accept. And that's the truth of the situation.

[22:54] <TiTaN> Anyways, what's up?

[22:54] <Goose|warmonger|> Where do we stand on a peace agreement. You'd offered 30k from anywhere and 10k internally, which we agreed to yesterday.

[22:55] <Myworld[DT]> With you walking away from it wasn't an agreement

[22:56] <Goose|warmonger|> I know, and I mentioned to TiTaN yesterday that we'd agree to it. Am I right in assuming that you no longer wish to agree to this?

[22:56] <TiTaN> Correct

[22:56] <Myworld[DT]> you walked off when it was on the table the other day. You come back to us after update and what to do it? Is unacceptable.

[22:57] <Goose|warmonger|> It was not a matter of update, but getting in touch with people and discussing it.

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> There was no mention of you or anyone talking about it.

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> You left the channel

[22:57] <Myworld[DT]> without a word

[22:58] <Goose|warmonger|> We need to let you know any time we discuss peace terms amongst ourselves? At the time, we were not planning on accepting it. We discussed it and decided it would be acceptable.

-snip-

[23:00] <Myworld[DT]> So now time to come to better terms

[23:01] <Goose|warmonger|> I'm guessing you have a new proposal?

[23:02] <Myworld[DT]> White Peace, and apology to those still fighting on extending this war longer than it has. We all go our ways not to enter into this conflict again.



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CSN originally wanted 40k tech from 2k+ nations, seriously?

I hadn't heard you guys were doing *THAT* well in the war, if you've got the balls to demand that much, then you must be doing well enough that you won't mind if they choose not to accept it.

You could debate how much leverage DT has, but obviously CSN doesn't have enough leverage in the situation to rip off DT, such a high amount at any rate is a dick move, however considering CSN, I don't suppose I expected otherwise.

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The apology was mute issue with us. It was a way to have CSN step up and do the right thing. If they didn't want to then we didn't care. Stated it several times that.

Only thing we cared about was this:

White Peace, both CSN and DT walk away and not enter into this conflict.

If they didn't want to accept that then we did ask them to find something acceptable between what was off the table and the White Peace. They failed at even taking that step.

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The apology was mute issue with us. It was a way to have CSN step up and do the right thing. If they didn't want to then we didn't care. Stated it several times that.

Only thing we cared about was this:

White Peace, both CSN and DT walk away and not enter into this conflict.

If they didn't want to accept that then we did ask them to find something acceptable between what was off the table and the White Peace. They failed at even taking that step.

Because your counter offer was so insultingly low, why should they bother?

I go to buy a nice car for $40,000 and start the negotiation process. He says "I'd like $40,000 in cash, but I'll give you $40,000 at 0% financing if it'll help this deal."

You reply with "I'll pay you zero dollars and I expect an apology for having to even haggle on this. Well, maybe the apology's not so important. And maybe I'll pay a bit. But it's gotta be somewhere between my starting point and your starting point!"

...what? Really?

If you had offered, say, 28,000 or 29,000 tech... you probably could have negotiated to 33 or 35 or something. But you didn't.

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Whelp

[23:09] <Myworld[DT]> We're not asking CSN to surrender

[23:09] <Myworld[DT]> We're staying we part ways

They can say that's not surrender if they want; they can also say that giving reps to CSN is not surrender. No one can stop them from holding those viewpoints. However, in my book, and in most peoples' books, when one side gives anything more than the other side in the peace term, the one giving is surrendering. So in the eyes of most people, you were asking for that to happen, no matter what you call it.

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Because your counter offer was so insultingly low, why should they bother?

I go to buy a nice car for $40,000 and start the negotiation process. He says "I'd like $40,000 in cash, but I'll give you $40,000 at 0% financing if it'll help this deal."

You reply with "I'll pay you zero dollars and I expect an apology for having to even haggle on this. Well, maybe the apology's not so important. And maybe I'll pay a bit. But it's gotta be somewhere between my starting point and your starting point!"

...what? Really?

If you had offered, say, 28,000 or 29,000 tech... you probably could have negotiated to 33 or 35 or something. But you didn't.

why should we even have to pay reps at all? I personally refuse to give anything to CSN expect more nukes.

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And just for one more clarification on the apology:

[23:02] <Myworld[DT]> White Peace, and apology to those still fighting on extending this war longer than it has. We all go our ways not to enter into this conflict again.

That apology was hopefully going to be directed at CSN members, Legacy, DT, LoSS, and RnR, or anyone else that has been in this war due to the actions that have been taken. We didn't look to have it directed at us but as the war in itself.

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Because your counter offer was so insultingly low, why should they bother?

I go to buy a nice car for $40,000 and start the negotiation process. He says "I'd like $40,000 in cash, but I'll give you $40,000 at 0% financing if it'll help this deal."

You reply with "I'll pay you zero dollars and I expect an apology for having to even haggle on this. Well, maybe the apology's not so important. And maybe I'll pay a bit. But it's gotta be somewhere between my starting point and your starting point!"

...what? Really?

If you had offered, say, 28,000 or 29,000 tech... you probably could have negotiated to 33 or 35 or something. But you didn't.

Great analogy. Terms are like buying a car. :rolleyea:

Aside from your obvious agenda to smear DT here, I do appreciate that you are keeping this discussion going. As far as the reason that the terms that we proposed then later decided were, too, absurd goes... I'll explain. It's quite simple.

From my understanding, which could be very much incorrect, the government tossed that out there to see if CSN would be willing to budge at all. They walked out of the talks. When the general membership was told that not only were we close to agreeing to such extortionist terms, but that CSN's greed wouldn't allow them to accept their prize without destroying our top tier in the process, most of us became more outraged. Those of us that did not support being taken advantage of entrenched ourselves more deeply in our position and those of us who were willing to work with CSN just to get out of this stupid war truly began to understand that CSN is motivated by greed and a strange vindictive desire to destroy DT. Essentially, what occurred on IRC was that most of our members said to our gov "you can accept those, but good luck paying it alone". Our gov, who already believes that the terms are cruel and unusual, came to the final conclusion that the only appropriate resolution here is white peace. To me, this seems like a case of DT gov listening to their constituents, something that the CSN gov would be wise to do, according to some leaked information . . .

That's my $0.02. I'm sure there will be more of this discussed outside this blog at some point.

Oh, and no one has yet explained to me why a peripheral alliance is getting such harsh terms for no reason.

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They can say that's not surrender if they want; they can also say that giving reps to CSN is not surrender. No one can stop them from holding those viewpoints. However, in my book, and in most peoples' books, when one side gives anything more than the other side in the peace term, the one giving is surrendering. So in the eyes of most people, you were asking for that to happen, no matter what you call it.

I could care less whose "surrendering" to whom. It was more to show that his rhetoric is being spewed with fabrication, and without full logs. When the full logs were shown, DT doesn't look half as bad as he claims. He conveniently forgets how Liz has acted in the negations, yet putting full blame onto DT. If he just forgets and fabricates one thing, how can we believe him not to be fabricating other parts of this whole blog.

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DT did nothing wrong. If ur ally asks for help, u help them, period. They shouldn't have to pay reps, CSN asking for them is complete bs.

Quite frankly anyone who is told to pay reps in this war should tell that alliance to shove those reps up their ass, im looking at you CSN, VE and the rest of you

:wub:

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Quite frankly anyone who is told to pay reps in this war should tell that alliance to shove those reps up their ass, im looking at you CSN, VE and the rest of you

What's it like to have gone full moralist wickedj, I'm genuinely curious.

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Wait so CSN waited until after update before resuming peace negotiations? So in theory they "attacked during peace talks". Wow.......Hypocrisy at its finest.

No... they didn't. CSN turned down the counter-offer, then, a day later, reconsidered and decided that it would be acceptable.

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I could care less whose "surrendering" to whom. It was more to show that his rhetoric is being spewed with fabrication, and without full logs. When the full logs were shown, DT doesn't look half as bad as he claims. He conveniently forgets how Liz has acted in the negations, yet putting full blame onto DT. If he just forgets and fabricates one thing, how can we believe him not to be fabricating other parts of this whole blog.

You tried to drag CSN through the mud, you tried to call in allies to coerce CSN into giving you peace, you retract terms, then you give the most insulting serious "counter-terms" in CN history. And you're surprised when Liz tells you to $%&@ off? HAHAHA

DT did nothing wrong. If ur ally asks for help, u help them, period. They shouldn't have to pay reps, CSN asking for them is complete bs.

Nobody ever does anything wrong. They're just doing what they have to to get by. Everyone is special and unique and a winner and we should all hold hands and "co exist".

DT chose a side of a war they wanted to attack, and they did so despite treaties that should have had them neutral, at worst. They completely ignored half their treaties and joined the other side of the war, then, when it wasn't as easy as they anticipated, asked for white peace. When they didn't get it, they threw a fit, tried to have allies 'pull strings' for them, and lied on the OWF in an attempt to libel CSN. Then, they retract reasonable counter-terms once CSN agrees to them and demand CSN surrenders.

Yeah, they've sure "done nothing".

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No... they didn't. CSN turned down the counter-offer, then, a day later, reconsidered and decided that it would be acceptable.

Exactly, they said no and continued attacking. Then once that was over and they took damage they were like "yea ummm on second thought, let's accept that."

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Exactly, they said no and continued attacking. Then once that was over and they took damage they were like "yea ummm on second thought, let's accept that."

I'm sure this is exactly what happened. After weeks of war, they got pushed over the edge that night, and sought out a surrender. Which is why when they were offered white peace they graciously surrendered.

You're better than this, Omni. CSN was asked to reconsider (I believe by DT itself), and so they did. They talked it over again, and they agreed to end the war. So they went back, and DT thought they had leverage now, so they tried to get white peace out of the situation.

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You tried to drag CSN through the mud, you tried to call in allies to coerce CSN into giving you peace, you retract terms, then you give the most insulting serious "counter-terms" in CN history. And you're surprised when Liz tells you to $%&@ off? HAHAHA

1. I'm not in DT, but that's an over look-able fact.

2. Pick the most irrelevant point to my post, and reply.

3. Don't deny anything else i said that implies you fabricated and conveniently forgot details in your blog.

It had all the makings of a great reply to my post.

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DT chose a side of a war they wanted to attack, and they did so despite treaties that should have had them neutral, at worst. They completely ignored half their treaties and joined the other side of the war, then, when it wasn't as easy as they anticipated, asked for white peace. When they didn't get it, they threw a fit, tried to have allies 'pull strings' for them, and lied on the OWF in an attempt to libel CSN. Then, they retract reasonable counter-terms once CSN agrees to them and demand CSN surrenders.

Yeah, they've sure "done nothing".

What have we done? Fought against CSN thus they get to extort us? We've moved past that era on Bob.

I see you completely ignored my counter-point. Also, what treaties did we ignore? The parts of NOIR that link us to Sparta and Umbrella, one of which attacked one of our longstanding MDP partners? You're making comments completely ignorant of all fact. You are no longer worth my valuable time.

I'll discuss this with you in another venue, I'm sure, but I'll be closing the door on this blog. If anyone is interested in hearing the truth, you should visit my posts in the RnR thread or query me on IRC (my current nick is Maghammad[DT], though it might end up as MaGneT[DT]). I have access to plenty of logs and images that truly show CSN's foolish greed.

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Penkala, I think it's funny that you insist on making the same points over and over again despite their having been quite clearly refuted in the logs.

No matter, really. You must already know that you have very little credibility outside your own alliance.

The fact is that CSN is attempting to extort 40,000 Tech from the Dark Templar on the grounds that "DT entered as a result of an ODP."

And that's it. The sole reason DT is being asked to fork over 40,000 Tech is that they honored a treaty.

It really doesn't matter who said or did what in negotiations. The fact is that CSN's demand is ridiculous on the face of it.

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Yes. You posted the full logs. Which tell exactly the same story I just provided with like 2 dozen lines: You made a counter offer. Later, they accepted it. Then you demanded CSN surrender to you, and they told you to shove it.

no they don't tell the same exact story. your story is so full of spin, propaganda, and fail that it is your usual style of posting which means it is far from the truth.

No... they didn't. CSN turned down the counter-offer, then, a day later, reconsidered and decided that it would be acceptable.

you do realize that talks were conducted on the 9th and then the 11th. fact is, 2 updates passed which means that basically 2 days had passed since CSN walked out. Goose then states that they were going to refuse our counter-offer until some of their allies talked to them. Then they went back to DT and were like "we accept" and by that time, we said "accept what? those terms are no longer on the table as you walked away".

I'd care more if DT didn't go out of its way to make itself an enemy. How's that military bloc coming along?

and whose fault is that? i would suspect it is CSN's. Instead of just giving us the peace that every other peripheral alliance had gotten, they demanded reps for a bs reason. and then continue to do so. they want their egos to be stroked by us and we refuse.

prior to that, DT had very little against CSN and many on your side. the fact that your side thinks CSN is okay in demanding these reps and that DT should basically get on our knees and show CSN how grateful we are that they are demanding 40k tech from us, is really ridiculous. CSN has gone out of their way to make an enemy, not the other way around. but nice attempt at spinning what is actually happening. well, actually, not that good of an attempt really.

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1. I'm not in DT, but that's an over look-able fact.

2. Pick the most irrelevant point to my post, and reply.

3. Don't deny anything else i said that implies you fabricated and conveniently forgot details in your blog.

It had all the makings of a great reply to my post.

I could care less whose "surrendering" to whom. It was more to show that his rhetoric is being spewed with fabrication, and without full logs. When the full logs were shown, DT doesn't look half as bad as he claims. He conveniently forgets how Liz has acted in the negations, yet putting full blame onto DT. If he just forgets and fabricates one thing, how can we believe him not to be fabricating other parts of this whole blog.

Fairly sure I addressed everything except "overlooking the facts", and I'm still not sure what I overlooked. Nothing I've said has been fabricated. Period.

The parts of NOIR that link us to Sparta and Umbrella, one of which attacked one of our longstanding MDP partners? You're making comments completely ignorant of all fact. You are no longer worth my valuable time.

Yes, NOIR ties. Also, your treaty with GR. You've only ever sought to active treaties on the opposite side of this war despite being tied about the same amount in both directions. You have this war because you hate the people on our side, not because you want to 'defend an ally' (whose only treaty with you is a color treaty.)

No matter, really. You must already know that you have very little credibility outside your own alliance.

Logs don't have credibility, either, then? I have all the credibility I need: I speak the truth and back up that truth with facts. That's more than can be said of your allies in DT (who still point people to the outdated R&R thread where DT asserts they have a reasonable offer on the table: 40k tech. But CSN won't accept!).

And that's it. The sole reason DT is being asked to fork over 40,000 Tech is that they honored a treaty.

This was the truth at the onset. After all the things DT's done, though, is it really that surprising that CSN is not willing to go through yet another round of negotiations?

you do realize that talks were conducted on the 9th and then the 11th. fact is, 2 updates passed which means that basically 2 days had passed since CSN walked out. Goose then states that they were going to refuse our counter-offer until some of their allies talked to them. Then they went back to DT and were like "we accept" and by that time, we said "accept what? those terms are no longer on the table as you walked away".

This is false. The TALKS happened two days later, but CSN informed DT after 30 hours that they would accept the terms proposed by DT. Fact is, ONE (1) update passed which basically means ONE (1) day had passed. "By that time" -- one day later -- you no longer wanted to negotiate.

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Fairly sure I addressed everything except "overlooking the facts", and I'm still not sure what I overlooked. Nothing I've said has been fabricated. Period.

Yes, NOIR ties. Also, your treaty with GR. You've only ever sought to active treaties on the opposite side of this war despite being tied about the same amount in both directions. You have this war because you hate the people on our side, not because you want to 'defend an ally' (whose only treaty with you is a color treaty.)

I'm sorry. I lied. I'm back. I just can't help myself, I feel like the bully on the playground and you're the kid who can't see without his glasses.

Really? Nothing you've said has been fabricated? What about in the OP, how you claim that DT is withholding facts, telling half truths as evidenced by logs... blah blah blah. You posted a snippet of logs, did not say anything else that occurred, and when Myworld posted the full ones, you looked like a jackass.

NOIR ties? We already addressed this in the thread. It's optional for a reason. Our relationship with Umbrella, to my knowledge, has not been nearly as good as our relationship with LoSS. So that solves that right there. As far as Sparta goes, they attacked our MDP partner without even a care that they had a treaty with us with the intent of keeping NOIR signatories like us out of the war. So don't spew that garbage.

As far as GR goes (though I do not know their involvement in this conflict), it's two MDP-level treaties versus one. NoR and NV were both at war too.

Still, nothing you've said has given any sort of explanation as to why DT deserves this treatment. Why? Because you have an agenda to push and you lack the intelligence and/or the argument to back that up.

EDIT: I debunked all the idiocy you vomited all over the above post in previous ones and I debunked your soundbite log argument in this one. Have a nice day in Inferiorityland.

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