From Francoism to Imperialism: Looking back at Civilization's Decline

[Neo Uruk]

If you put half the time into your alliance as you do into writing crap like this, you might be useful.

But if he doesn't obsess over DBDC, NPO, and NSO, he won't have anything to look at while imagining LoSS is a top-notch alliance!

[Sephiroth]

I found this to be an interesting account of a historical event before my time. My main interaction with Ivan and having ever been a member of any Order was while he was leading NSO; and I found him to be a good leader. So I would of liked to see him succeed in unifying the Orders, which he seemed to be trying while leading NSO.

[The Zigur]

But if he doesn't obsess over DBDC, NPO, and NSO, he won't have anything to look at while imagining LoSS is a top-notch alliance!

 

Ok LPH 2.0, please stop pooping all over my thread.

[Neo Uruk]

Ok LPH 2.0, please stop pooping all over my thread.

You just exposed that an alliance nearly ten times our membercount has less members on IRC right now.

[The Zigur]

You just exposed that an alliance nearly ten times our membercount has less members on IRC right now.

 

IRC activity has nothing to do with how good an alliance is... there is plenty of forums activity. Nor does it have to do with events in 2007. Stop derailing please.

[Krzyzewskiville]

I think I understand you better now, but how would you answer my criticism of the handling of the Moldavi Rebellion? If indeed sovereignty and the final decision lies with the Emperor, and Emperor Revenge seemed to indicate that Ivan Moldavi was again Emperor, would that not mean that Moldavi was the rightful Emperor from that point onward? I simply do not buy that physical control over institutions (ooc: forums) affects the legitimacy of the succession. If Emperor Revenge was not strong enough to rebuff Ivan's demands, how could he be strong enough to continue to control the IOs?

The lack of physical control is crucial. They could have removed Moo without his consent, so him saying his removal was okay came under duress. There is an idea in the law that acts done under duress are voidable. How is this any different?

[HM Solomon I]

The lack of physical control is crucial. They could have removed Moo without his consent, so him saying his removal was okay came under duress. There is an idea in the law that acts done under duress are voidable. How is this any different?

 

How dare you use actual facts in a Tywin thread!  I am appalled.

[The Zigur]

The lack of physical control is crucial. They could have removed Moo without his consent, so him saying his removal was okay came under duress. There is an idea in the law that acts done under duress are voidable. How is this any different?

 

If Moo was unable to maintain consolidated power in his rule, then he had already failed as Emperor. He made the right decision in deferring to Ivan Moldavi, and such a decision cannot be reversed without consequences. It just so happened that these consequences would change the fate of our entire world, leading to the schism of the Orders and the downfall of the Hegemony.

[Krzyzewskiville]

If Moo was unable to maintain consolidated power in his rule, then he had already failed as Emperor. He made the right decision in deferring to Ivan Moldavi, and such a decision cannot be reversed without consequences. It just so happened that these consequences would change the fate of our entire world, leading to the schism of the Orders and the downfall of the Hegemony.

Being Emperor does not require the same skills as being able to serve as a forum/server admin and most alliances do not have their sole leader have control of the forum or server. You're minimizing that element of this to such a degree that it destroys all credibility you may think you had in this thread.

[The Zigur]

Being Emperor does not require the same skills as being able to serve as a forum/server admin and most alliances do not have their sole leader have control of the forum or server. You're minimizing that element of this to such a degree that it destroys all credibility you may think you had in this thread.

 

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

 

How differently would history have unfolded if Ivan had returned to power unchallenged? How much stronger would have the Hegemony been with unity between the Orders and the lulzists cast into the void? It all goes back to this singular decision of the Imperial Officers to coup Ivan, and anyone who has suffered because of their cruelty can place the blame squarely back on them.

[Helbrecht]

 

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

 

How differently would history have unfolded if Ivan had returned to power unchallenged? How much stronger would have the Hegemony been with unity between the Orders and the lulzists cast into the void? It all goes back to this singular decision of the Imperial Officers to coup Ivan, and anyone who has suffered because of their cruelty can place the blame squarely back on them.

There are many more variables in the equation that brought down the world order as it was at the time. It was not just the events of the Moldavi Rebellion that brought about the dismantling of the OoO, nor the butchering of BLEU or the eventual erosion of the power base that was 1V and subsequent defeat of Pacifica by the Karma Coalition. A lot of things went into bringing about the maelstrom. The scattering to the winds of the dispossessed and the pursued, the taking of shelter in other alliances under assumed identities, alliances often led by those that harbored a dislike for the Hegemony, the sub culture of simmering dislike. The learning that the words "just pixels" had a lot of power to them. Not to mention, the beast was inherently cannibalistic in nature. It is a whole other can of worms if we start discussing the reasons behind the dismantling of the Hegemony. It has been discussed to death and beyond in almost every venue associated with this verse, and the consensus (in my opinion, based on what i have read) has always been that it was inevitable and no amount of shoulda coulda woulda was going to postpone it indefinitely.

 

But yes, maybe a few (who have the time on their hands, like to think beyond the evident, and were in the loop at the time) could get together and put something down in a post or a wiki article. Or maybe more than one group, and then notes can be compared.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Helbrecht

[The Zigur]

Much that was known is now lost, and few of us remain to remember the Greatness of the Hegemony. The apathy of this world is only matched by its decay, the degeneration of a population seeing only numbers and figures. But it wasn't mathematics which created the Hegemony, it was philosophy and a yearning for Order.

 

You are correct that in a sense the Hegemony became cannibalistic in nature... and that there was resentment among many leaders within the Hegemony. This only identifies the inadequate leadership provided by the later NPO. Stability was reduced as alliances were increasingly attacked for ideologically inconsistent reasons, and massive numbers of leaders sentenced to damnation provided a legion of capable, eternal enemies. I myself was one who would have supported the Hegemony, while lulzists reigned with impudence.

 

And it all started when the credibility of the Order was damaged by the blood spilled in the Palace Pacifica.

[Charles the Tyrant]

Much that was known is now lost, and few of us remain to remember the Greatness of the Hegemony. The apathy of this world is only matched by its decay, the degeneration of a population seeing only numbers and figures. But it wasn't mathematics which created the Hegemony, it was philosophy and a yearning for Order.
 
You are correct that in a sense the Hegemony became cannibalistic in nature... and that there was resentment among many leaders within the Hegemony. This only identifies the inadequate leadership provided by the later NPO. Stability was reduced as alliances were increasingly attacked for ideologically inconsistent reasons, and massive numbers of leaders sentenced to damnation provided a legion of capable, eternal enemies. I myself was one who would have supported the Hegemony, while lulzists reigned with impudence.
 
And it all started when the credibility of the Order was damaged by the blood spilled in the Palace Pacifica.

Absolute nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense.

[The Zigur]

It all comes back to Order and Chaos, Charles. We can delude ourselves with notions of free will, that this degeneracy some call freedom truly represents our best self interests, but at the state of nature we are nothing more than pawns thrown hither and thither like pebbles in the stream of time.

 

So long as Chaos prevails we shall never achieve our true potential, and we shall be subject to the manipulations of others. Only through Order can history be distilled into a pattern of certainty that can then provide us with true freedom.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Tywin Lannister

[Cortath]

Ultimately, Francoism is not an ideology suited to analyzing personal relations. Moreover, the reasons for the fall of Pacifica are many, complex, and not any single event. It is foolish to analyze history in some sort of linear "great person" narrative.

[AlmightyGrub]

I have read the OP and subsequent replies, some people were there in influential positions, most have merely learned the ''facts'' as history has shaped and revised them.  I think Tywin falls deeply into the abyss of the second category particularly regarding this matter.

 

The people really involved are mostly gone, thankfully for some of them, and the world is subsequently a different place and the history has been re-written and massaged a number of times into a palatable story that suits the narrative of the day.  The actual facts of the situation are very different, the personalities involved are very different to how they are portrayed and the outcomes and reasons for them bear little resemblance to this nice glossy piece.

 

People have attributed much to the 3 people directly involved in this situation and rightfully so, but due to the fuzzy barrier of IC/OOC none of this will ever be discussed appropriately and the ''real'' truth will never ever be public knowledge and that is a good thing.

[The Zigur]

Sometimes the dark is generous... and daylight which passes through stained glass can reveal patterns more beautiful than the dry existence laid bare by the harsh noon sun.

[Charles the Tyrant]

I think your brain was cooked by the harsh noon sun. It's the only possible explanation for this topic.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Charles the Tyrant

[The Zigur]

I think your brain was cooked by the harsh noon sun. It's the only possible explanation for this topic.

 

Your mentality simply reveals the degeneration of civilization in our world. Long ago not everything was simply statistics (ooc: in game stuff).

[Charles the Tyrant]

 

Your mentality simply reveals the degeneration of civilization in our world. Long ago not everything was simply statistics (ooc: in game stuff).

 

Newsflash, this world has never and never will be civilised.

[The Zigur]

 

Newsflash, this world has never and never will be civilised.

 

How many nations have you had?

[Neo Uruk]

Newsflash, this world has never and never will be civilised.

B-b-b-but Francoism!

[Rayvon]

How many nations have you had?

Do you lift?

[Krzyzewskiville]

People have attributed much to the 3 people directly involved in this situation and rightfully so, but due to the fuzzy barrier of IC/OOC none of this will ever be discussed appropriately and the ''real'' truth will never ever be public knowledge and that is a good thing.

Amen.

[Starfox101]

You grossly misunderstand how the Moldavi Rebellion was viewed and how "Autocratic Democracy" supported not Ivan's claim, but Moo's. While some members departed after Moo took back the throne, there were many others on the verge of departure when Ivan took over. The uneasiness of many, indeed, the majority of members with the sudden coup was kept quiet and were afraid to speak their mind because at the time, Ivan had his secret though police running around and acting like Big Brother. Ivan was someone who was feared and disliked by many members, whereas Moo, still early in his reign, was well-liked and respected. The idea of autocratic democracy is that members can vote with their feet. It is thus telling that just about every IO helped Moo take back the throne that was rightly his, it is telling that Moo's return to power was applauded by most members and very, very few members actually departed angry that Ivan was forced out. I'm not sure how you think that Moo taking back the throne was in any way inconsistent with Francoism when you were not a member of the alliance at the time and you did not understand how people felt about the event.

[OOC]
All of which is to say nothing of how OOC elements were used/abused to support Ivan's claim. The Polar member who supported Ivan owned the domain name and was the forum admin, and threatened to take over with that - indeed, to get Moo back in power, the IOS had to transfer the forum info and forcefully get control back. In addition, there are stories about how they used their knowledge of Moo's sicknesses to get him to step down, using OOC stuff as a weapon. Basically, it was a total mess of which you know little, if anything at all, because you were not there.

Some good insight here. I actually don't know too much about this situation, and I had the gift of disliking both of them, so I ignored the situation and hoped for the worst.

 

You grossly misunderstand the role of the Imperial Officers and the duality of the Francoist notions of the absolute unification of sovereignty in an Emperor, and the never-complete unification of wisdom in an Emperor.

All nations of the New Pacific Order unify their sovereignty in an Emperor. In giving up their sovereignty, they achieve true freedom. This is all very well-covered in my Comrade Vladimir's "The Paradox of Freedom."

The unification of sovereignty is a comparatively easy task compared to the unification of wisdom. This is where Imperial Officers come in. Francoism extolls no man, no God, no idea or set of beliefs above any other. Rather, Francoism recognizes that though the Emperor is an absolute sovereign, they are frail humans, and can make all the mistakes attendant to humanity.

Our past Emperors, in their wisdom, have created various structure to help to advise them. To gather up the wisdom of the Body Republic into the Emperor. That is, of course impossible, and it is a ceaseless and thankless task to which all Pacificans strive. Emperor TrotskysRevenge founded the modern Imperial system in his Imperial Decree establishing the Mark II ranks, forming Imperial Officers. This system remains generally unchanged unto today.

The purpose of the Mark II Ranks was two-fold: one to endow officers inferior to the Emperor with some of the Emperor's sovereignty in specific areas. Thus, we have Imperial Officers of Economic Affairs, who are largely in charge of the economy of Pacifica. Ditto Military Affairs, News & Propaganda, Internal Affairs, etc., etc. The Emperor remains ultimately sovereign, but in an alliance of a thousand, sovereignty and power necessarily devolves downhill to administer the Pacifica machine..

But as important to the delegation of sovereignty to the Officers is the exchange of wisdom. As sovereignty flows downhill, Officers attempt to deliver wisdom uphill to the Emperor. Thus, it is the duty of Officers and all Pacificans to question the Emperor, to engage in self-criticism, in the hopes that through debate and discussion, we unify our wisdom in the person of the Emperor.

Thus, your thesis that Imperial Officers held more power than the Emperor is false. You mistake the giving of advice and criticism, the duty of all Francoists, as some sort of opposition. The Emperor has no need of sycophants, even ones talented in administering the will of the Emperor. Talented technocrats and bureaucrats are a dime a dozen, and they are the death knell of the permanent revolution that Francoism demands. Francoism demands a government of constant self-criticism, constant debate and discussion, for our Emperor is human, and all humans are fallible. It is the never-ending mission of Francoism to unite our collective wisdom in the man whom we call “Emperor” whom we have successfully united our collective sovereignty.

Another good read.

 

Hate to break it to you Tywin but EZI started long before the Moldavi rebellion too.

I would know ;)

Yes, yes it did, and we would know haha.

 

I'm actually one of the guys who's in favor of Polar-Pacifica making up. I always enjoyed the fact that under NPO-NpO leadership there was far more roleplaying, politics, etc. Although that might be just due to the decay of everything over time. Either way, I'd like Ivan back.