Karma War Stats

[Heyman]

These are indeed rather old.

I remember those days. I remember being in TPF, and knowing we were going to be in a long war. So we just fought as hard as we could and decided to see how long we could last.

[Monster]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1300659713' post='2671462']
To me, Cit would have made more sense as a starting point than SF, assuming you could get one to work against the other. Cit and their immediate allies were obviously starting to move away, meaning a hit on them would have been a warning to other alliances on the fence. Cit also had a far more impressive upper tier than SF, meaning SF's firepower could be used against Cit, then Q could take SF down. That would be a lot easier than doing it the other way.
[/quote]

That's a big assumption. Anyway, Citadel as a starting point didn't make sense as Gremlins did their best to show they weren't interested in starting an opposition. They certainly weren't going to do it and rejected anything hinting at it, much to my consternation(didn't really stop me entirely though), so there was a chance of hitting SF and keeping them neutral. SF after the Hoo logs made the most sense. If they go after Gre, they lose TOP and MHA for sure even though most people didn't think that at the time. Hence "Please TOP don't betray Gremlins."

Edited March 22, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[grahamkeatley]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1300641959' post='2671150']
Argent fought for Karma.
You may remember us from such productions as "former protectorate, upgraded to MDoAP" at one point. So treaties were still alittle split. However, I never really thought for an instant that TOOL wouldn't fight for TPF...ever. One of the many reasons that the aforementioned MDoAP doesn't exist any longer.
[/quote]

Well, since then and especially during that time I had dozens of discussions (including with you), speaking on that very topic. TOOL outlined to all our allies how we would be standing prior to Karma breaking out. As soon as NPO starting pressing on the spying issue, because we saw our allies being split. Obvious. Of all our allies only TPF and Argent joined in a manner in which we outlined pre-war. And had the war fallen differently TOOL would of circled around for Argent, because you joined down the line from TPF. It had been decided within TOOL. Similar to how RIA fought recently. TOOL was not part of any coalition until it was clear we were then embedded and had to be involved. But as I said back then, and repeat to this day, had treaties been activated differently and along the lines of how we described to all our allies. TOOL could of come in behind any of our allies, and would have.

Disagreements were made about how TOOL defined aggressive and as a result mandatory clauses. But the disagreements came after the war, even though we gave our definition prior to the war. I understand the reasons why the treaty no longer exists, and they still disappoint me a little because I dont believe the reasons were true to how TOOL would of acted in any given circumstance.

GK

[William Blake]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1300641959' post='2671150']
Argent fought for Karma.
You may remember us from such productions as "former protectorate, upgraded to MDoAP" at one point. So treaties were still alittle split. However, I never really thought for an instant that TOOL wouldn't fight for TPF...ever. One of the many reasons that the aformentioned MDoAP doesn't exist any longer.
[/quote]
Did you forget? You guys weren't significant.

But yeah, Graham summed it up.

[janax]

[quote name='William Blake' timestamp='1300910144' post='2673931']
Did you forget? You guys weren't significant.

But yeah, Graham summed it up.
[/quote]


Still aren't relevant. It's part of our deal

[William Blake]

Damn, I knew it was relevant, was just about to edit.

[Dr. Dan]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300329165' post='2666856']
True, but only if the CB is what you care about. In a situation like that with clear rivalries and great political tension, the CB for a war is no more than a pretext, a tactical matter. And picking an alliance with so many important connections was a poor tactical move.
[/quote]

The CB was absolutely important in this case. Some needed alliances involved would not go to bat unless there was a clear CB. There was no "picking" in this case. It was their first opportunity of someone else messing up.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1300384185' post='2667862']
You give Blackstone way, way too much credit.
[/quote]
Alas, no I don't. It was a really stupid !@#$@#$ trap, and it should not have worked.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300643051' post='2671160']
Haflinger, even if you were right about Blackstone picking a target for that purpose, it was still NPO (and TPF and TORN but let's face it they were minor players) who chose to roll.
[/quote]
TPF and TORN were not minor players.

NPO was divided; on the one hand, you had guys like Triyun and Dilber who realized that it was a trap, and were advising against hitting OV. On the other hand...

You had TORN threatening to declare alone and do a public callout of their MADP with NPO if Moo listened to Triyun and Dilber, and stayed out of the war. That's why NPO declared.

[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1300643769' post='2671171']
And I'm fairly certain that Pacifica expected to win.
[/quote]
They did not.

The name for the war, before it even started, in NPO was Armageddon. They expected it to lead to their complete destruction.

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300782168' post='2673042']
SF after the Hoo logs made the most sense.
[/quote]
You are correct. They didn't because Dilber liked RIA and did not want to see them rolled.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300782168' post='2673042']
That's a big assumption. Anyway, Citadel as a starting point didn't make sense as Gremlins did their best to show they weren't interested in starting an opposition. They certainly weren't going to do it and rejected anything hinting at it, much to my consternation(didn't really stop me entirely though), so there was a chance of hitting SF and keeping them neutral. SF after the Hoo logs made the most sense. If they go after Gre, they lose TOP and MHA for sure even though most people didn't think that at the time. Hence "Please TOP don't betray Gremlins."
[/quote]
I understand why many people thought that a war would occur once the Gramlins left the Continuum but it was never going to be a reality. The Gramlins, has you've said, did their best to show that they were not lining up on the opposite side of the Q but more importantly, imho, you had half the Q backing them up. I can't speak for their other allies at the time but I know we out right said that any attack on them would be met with war regardless of the Q's NAP clause. I'm sure FOK, OG and MHA felt the same way.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1300286341' post='2666460']
Think it was OUT. Anyway, Q stopped being a hegemony weeks before the war actually kicked off due to some major enablers switching sides and/or signalling where they stood. It was obvious within Q that it was going to be a major loss. I just find it funny when people claim they didn't know till the last moment which way the war would swing.
[/quote]

And I find it tired that people are still insisting that I or even most of the Karma side did know. We didn't have the point of view coming in from within your side, not at all. We knew as soon as so many AA's tried to bail on NPO and as soon as TORN folded so easily, but before that we were still ambiguous about our chances.

[quote]Although I don't think SF and C&G would have been dumb enough to allow themselves to be fought individually[/quote]

We weren't. We were relatively clear and solid with each other about it being suicide not to roll together whenever the next one came. I don't know whether Citadel would've shown up [I think FOK - although not Citadel, definitely part of that sphere at the time, and depending on how much TOP got on their case/interfered, probably Umbrella] would've shown, but the rest I had much less confidence in.

We were expecting something bloody, but ultimately an extremely damaging stalemate seemed most likely.

[quote]It's been pretty clearly established that the CB was leaked by Blackstone, who picked OV for exactly the reasons you give above.[/quote]

The only actions I ever observed out of Blackstone were seriously damaging to my efforts/the side in general in the lead-up to Karma. I'm not at all convinced it wasn't NPO the entire time, and in true NPO fashion they didn't really do much anyway.

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg']Or are you speaking for yourself indivisually?[/quote]

He was leading a League alliance during GW2 [literally got the job during it] prior to joining GOD, that's what he means. And yeah, he was around for a lot of our big wins - but compared to the negatives [UJW, GW2, etc] the only extremely satisfying win was Karma.

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1300644873' post='2671182']
Well if NPO was going to target anyone after noCB, I would guess that the obvious target would be SF rather than Citadel?
[/quote]

NPO was still rather convinced that SF was on their side in the lead up to Karma, although when the Hoo logs leaked and mine did as well, I think they figured at least a couple of us would be against them. Meanwhile Sygyzy and a bunch of other Gre folk were trolling Q rather hard with Vox all across the OWF, so we were fairly worried Q would find some reason to take them out - and most convinced that's where it would start. /Que TOP chest beating.

[Proximo]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1301448613' post='2680302']
/Que TOP chest beating.
[/quote]

Why would we do that? You're not mad at us still, are you?

Edit: typoooo!!!

Edited March 30, 2011 by Proximo

[Penkala]

[quote name='Proximo' timestamp='1301500509' post='2680678']
Why would we do that? You're not mad at us still, are you?

Edit: typoooo!!!
[/quote]

You know Xiphosis. He holds grudges, often times for the dumbest of reasons.

[quote]Think it was OUT. Anyway, Q stopped being a hegemony weeks before the war actually kicked off due to some major enablers switching sides and/or signalling where they stood. It was obvious within Q that it was going to be a major loss. I just find it funny when people claim they didn't know till the last moment which way the war would swing.[/quote]

I promise... we didn't know.

[quote]I'm not at all convinced it wasn't NPO the entire time, and in true NPO fashion they didn't really do much anyway.[/quote]

Have to agree on this one. There were several things that ended up happening during the war that lead myself (and others) to believe that Blackstone, if anything, was on the Hegemony's side. Not the least of which was the news that admin CP information was being leaked to NPO high gov to root out spies in alliances.

[quote]NPO was still rather convinced that SF was on their side in the lead up to Karma, although when the Hoo logs leaked and mine did as well, I think they figured at least a couple of us would be against them. [/quote]

"Fark will definitely roll with us."

Edited March 31, 2011 by Penkala

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Proximo' timestamp='1301500509' post='2680678']
Why would we do that? You're not mad at us still, are you?
[/quote]

There's been a fair bit of chest beating from TOP insisting they could've held Q at bay indefinitely with regards to Gre in almost every thread regarding Karma since it happened, although it seems Feanor preempted that que.

[Feanor Noldorin]

We held back the entire force of Q from crushing the Gramlins with just one pinkie. Don't worry, we didn't strain ourselves.