Locke Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297061631' post='2623733'] No Mr. Conqueror, we expect them [i]to die.[/i] [/quote] Why not expect them to do coordinate substitution while strapped to a centrifuge? Much more interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Locke' timestamp='1297057224' post='2623487'] While interesting and informing, nothing in there really contradicts what was said in the article. It wasn't relevant to his point, why would he need to include the whole thing? Should he just dump the whole embassy while he's at it? [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Ummm....yes it does. It directly contradicts the point that Sir Paul was trying to make. That NPO "tried" to mend fences with FAN. Jocko's post shows the seriosness of the situation, and cast light on the token efforts that NPO put foreward to build trust. Yet NPO has the audacity to !@#$%* in its propaganda that "We tried...we really did". This whole war essentially boils down to them not willing to knock off the relentless piles of crap they try to feed the universe while they try to imagine that they are in some position to speak in no uncertain terms, to let everyone know that they are superior to everyone else.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldConqueror Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297059531' post='2623624'] Can you please cite your references for this statement please? Because if you are stating that Pacifica and Dilber and Moo have each apologized to FAN, and that is who Sigrun Vapneir was clearly talking about, then I suspect that you sir are telling an untruth. [/quote] Damn you and your edits forcing me to change my response. It seemed to me that he started out talking about FAN and then went into more general terms, but anyway. Pacifica has said multiple times that the events around the redeclaration could have been handled better and that that war shouldn't have gone as long as it did, I seem to remember a statement from Moo to that effect around Karma. As for Dilber, I'm not sure. Why you want an apology from Dilber when Moo was Emperor for both wars I'm not sure either. And Cortath as current Emperor approached you guys as well. His piece (OOC?: on CN radio) showed he spent time and effort trying to clear the air with FAN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Izuzu Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297061631' post='2623733'] No Mr. Conqueror, we expect them [i]to die.[/i] [/quote] With all due respect, Mr. Homo, your expectation is inherently flawed and so you are doomed to disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Good read as usual. Something though I think the truth might be catching up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297058665' post='2623590'] That's crap. You expect Pacifica to expel two of it's past Emperors or something? [/quote] No, like Jocko, I expect you to burn. I dont expect you are even capable of contrition, remorse, or repentence; you cant even be bothered to fake it convincingly. I wish it were otherwise, but time and again you prove it so. Here's a good example: [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297063413' post='2623766'] Pacifica has said multiple times that the events around the redeclaration could have been handled better [/quote] That ain't no apology. That ain't even close. I would call it an insult. Edited February 7, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Izuzu Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1297064788' post='2623786'] No, like Jocko, I expect you to burn. I dont expect you are even capable of contrition, remorse, or repentence; you cant even be bothered to fake it convincingly. I wish it were otherwise, but time and again you prove it so. Here's a good example: That ain't no apology. That ain't even close. I would call it an insult. [/quote] Having read the logs posted by Jocko, I will simply say that they don't demonstrate any unwillingness on the part of NPO to achieve rapport with FAN. On the contrary, they simply illustrate the difficulties in doing so. I realize that you have issues with us that have not been resolved, however, the fact that your issues have not been resolved do not demonstrate that NPO is not willing and has not demonstrated a willingness to try to move forward from the issues of the past. In some cases, the remedies insisted upon are simply not practicable. While we are willing to admit the errors of the past, that does not mean that we shall cast our Comrades to the ravening of the wolves. If you cannot acknowledge that, then there is truly not much that we can do to ameliorate your hatred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Savage Man Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 o/ sir paul brilliant amazing <3 wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldConqueror Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1297064788' post='2623786'] No, like Jocko, I expect you to burn. I dont expect you are even capable of contrition, remorse, or repentence; you cant even be bothered to fake it convincingly. I wish it were otherwise, but time and again you prove it so. Here's a good example: That ain't no apology. That ain't even close. I would call it an insult. [/quote] Good for you bro. Guess what, I'm not in Pacifica any more. I personally don't feel bad about anything I did under the Pacifican flag, but trying to equate my stances with that of Pacifica today is pretty dumb. And take it for what you will, that's what I remember being said in public. I'm sure there were much more frank discussions in private. From my point of view the redeclaration was perfectly justified, the only point of contention for me is the length of the war. So I'm not particularly inclined to remember any more apologetic statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) [OOC]Are Dark Templars those invisible Protoss units? Who kill a marine with one hit? I like it[/OOC] Edited February 7, 2011 by D34th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297066765' post='2623826'] Good for you bro. Guess what, I'm not in Pacifica any more. I personally don't feel bad about anything I did under the Pacifican flag, but trying to equate my stances with that of Pacifica today is pretty dumb.[/quote] Except that what you said was pretty much what Pacifica keeps trying to pass off as an apology. [quote]From my point of view the redeclaration was perfectly justified, the only point of contention for me is the length of the war. So I'm not particularly inclined to remember any more apologetic statements. [/quote] So you are telling me you see nothing wrong with attacking an alliance while it is under terms, demilitarised and under your sworn protection. You know, there are a lot of things that can be argued both ways, there are a lot of shades of grey and a lot of actions that in the end should just be written off as mutual combat or dont play the game if you arent ready to lose. There are cases where you can say "we could have handled that better" and that would make sense, and I would nod and accept it. But that ain't one of them. You don't take disarmed prisoners, line em up, and shoot em down. Ever. For any reason, with any excuse, it doesnt matter, that is just so clearly over the line, there is no excuse for it. I call it a war crime because that is what it was, there are no other words to describe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1297065810' post='2623807'] Having read the logs posted by Jocko, I will simply say that they don't demonstrate any unwillingness on the part of NPO to achieve rapport with FAN. On the contrary, they simply illustrate the difficulties in doing so. I realize that you have issues with us that have not been resolved, however, the fact that your issues have not been resolved do not demonstrate that NPO is not willing and has not demonstrated a willingness to try to move forward from the issues of the past. In some cases, the remedies insisted upon are simply not practicable. While we are willing to admit the errors of the past, that does not mean that we shall cast our Comrades to the ravening of the wolves. If you cannot acknowledge that, then there is truly not much that we can do to ameliorate your hatred. [/quote] Joe, what I posted was not logs of any sort and don't necessarily represent the basic thrust of the discussions. I simply posted the expanded and complete DelSolid posts that Sir Paul was selectively quoting from so the people of CN can see the truth of what was said. What I didn't post was where Cortath was caught red handed in a significant lie and the resulting closure of the consulate. That lie cut to the very heart of Cortath's and NPO's credibility since the entire NPO defense was "well you are just going to have to believe us, we have changed". It is clearly shown by the DelSolid posts that FAN came to the table prepared to have tough discussions in a frank and open way. Unfortunately NPO only came with their PR machine loaded and in this case being one step ahead of the truth bit them in the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297063413' post='2623766'] [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297059531' post='2623624'] [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297058665' post='2623590'] That's crap. You expect Pacifica to expel two of it's past Emperors or something? [b]Pacifica apologized for their actions, as did Dilber and Moo.[/b] To expect that NPO would throw them to the dogs to win favour with anyone is ridiculous. Would you have sacrificed Mpol for NoR/NoV? And war crimes? Come on mang, are you the next ShinRa or something? Going to start raving about genocide and death camps soon? [/quote] Can you please cite your references for this statement please? Because if you are stating that Pacifica and Dilber and Moo have each apologized to FAN, and that is who Sigrun Vapneir was clearly talking about, then I suspect that you sir are telling an untruth. [/quote] Damn you and your edits forcing me to change my response. It seemed to me that he started out talking about FAN and then went into more general terms, but anyway. Pacifica has said multiple times that the events around the redeclaration could have been handled better and that that war shouldn't have gone as long as it did, I seem to remember a statement from Moo to that effect around Karma. As for Dilber, I'm not sure. Why you want an apology from Dilber when Moo was Emperor for both wars I'm not sure either. And Cortath as current Emperor approached you guys as well. His piece (OOC?: on CN radio) showed he spent time and effort trying to clear the air with FAN. [/quote] So I'll take that as a failure to cite your references. If Cortath and the NPO spent one tenth as much time actually trying to mend fences as they do trying to [i]appear[/i] as though they are mending fences they wouldn't be in this war. Edited February 7, 2011 by Jocko Homo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 From the outside looking in, it appears FAN has made the only real attempts at mending relations. But, I'm not privy to anymore than I can read on these forums. The truth is that two civilized leaders coming to the table to talk as educated men can resolve conflict and restore faith for all nations under their care and guidance. Is that really so hard? The only thing that will happen here is NPO and FAN continue to tear each other down while the rest of the world eventually moves onward and upward. Pity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldConqueror Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1297088148' post='2623979'] So you are telling me you see nothing wrong with attacking an alliance while it is under terms, demilitarised and under your sworn protection. [/quote] Not in this case, no. They voided the agreement by breaking the terms, the protection was rightfully rescinded and they were attacked for their flagrant disregard for the terms which they had committed to comply with as the price of peace from the previous war. FAN's crocodile tears over being attacked for a material breach of terms has always amazed me, and even more so that other people bought into it. I don't see why Pacifica was just expected to give them a free pass. [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297096095' post='2624077'] So I'll take that as a failure to cite your references. [/quote] I'm far too lazy to go digging through thousands of posts in various threads for your gratification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamerlane Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 So when will you join Emperor Anarch in his mission to take back the Pacifican throne? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297098010' post='2624131'] [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297096095' post='2624077']So I'll take that as a failure to cite your references. [/quote] I'm far too lazy to go digging through thousands of posts in various threads for your gratification.[/quote] Don't be so hard on yourself. It's not lazy to refuse to go "digging through thousands of posts in various threads" looking for something that doesn't exist. It's actually pretty smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Zhaan' timestamp='1297096894' post='2624098'] From the outside looking in, it appears FAN has made the only real attempts at mending relations. But, I'm not privy to anymore than I can read on these forums. The truth is that two civilized leaders coming to the table to talk as educated men can resolve conflict and restore faith for all nations under their care and guidance. Is that really so hard? The only thing that will happen here is NPO and FAN continue to tear each other down while the rest of the world eventually moves onward and upward. Pity. [/quote] Zhann, You are exactly right. That's why FAN hosted private talks with NPO after the Karma war. We realized that it was in our best interest to move on. But to move on we had to be sure both of us moved on. We said it pretty clearly right out of the gate. [quote name='DelSolid (Bad JuJu)'] If we go to war with each other, regardless of the stated CB, it will be seen by all as the two rabid dogs fighting again, proving that the second chances we were both given were a waste. If we go to war again we will both be damned by the entirety of CN and coupled with neither side willing to surrender our war will effectively be to the death. We may roll around grappling with each other for 10 years but as far as CN is concerned we will both be irrelevant and they will go on without us.[/quote] FAN wanted to move on. We hosted those talks in private so we could sit down and talk frankly, without the public relations posturing that public talks so often degrade into. I think those extracts shown here clearly show that FAN was 100% on board, but unfortunately we learned that we were the only ones prepared to talk openly and honestly and the talks ended under yet another cloud of NPO deception. Edited February 7, 2011 by Jocko Homo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letum Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) "We wanted to put everything behind us and talk openly and honestly, but the NPO was so evil that they [i]forced[/i] us to attack them!" So you have a grudge. That's perfectly alright. Just stick to it and fight. All this double talk about how it's all "NPO's fault" that you weren't accommodated to the extent you claim would have been enough simply smacks of politicized propaganda. Do you really need that? Are you honestly in a position where you are seeking some sort of extra "legitimacy" for your aggression? Because you aren't going to find it in that line of thought. I very much doubt FAN needs that kind of legitimacy in the first place. "You didn't try hard enough to make friends" is not important. We think we did. We're biased. You think we didn't. You're biased. None of it matters though, because that's not why we are fighting. We're not fighting because the Pacific failed in some obligation to make the world like it. We're fighting because you want us to fight. Nothing more, nothing less. Perhaps there was a course of action that could have stopped you from wanting that, but "you didn't stop me" isn't an excuse. Stop trying to use it as one. [i]You're[/i] the ones with a grudge, [i]you're[/i] the ones who have attacked us. And that's perfectly fine. Bring it and all. But please, stop this constant complaining about what NPO "could have" done. You are responsible for your own desires. Own up to them. Edited February 7, 2011 by Letum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Letum' timestamp='1297102775' post='2624240']All this double talk about how it's all "NPO's fault" that you weren't accommodated to the extent you claim would have been enough simply smacks of politicized propaganda. Do you really need that? Are you honestly in a position where you are seeking some sort of extra "legitimacy" for your aggression? Because you aren't going to find it in that line of thought. I very much doubt FAN needs that kind of legitimacy in the first place.[/quote] The fact that you are stating that we (FAN) clearly don't need to gain any additional support via propaganda is brilliant considering you are saying this in an NPO propaganda thread. The sad (hilarious) fact that you have been attacked yet are still viewed with such disdain that you must try to propagandize your way out of it is just so awesome. Please guys, just surrender now. I promise we will be gentle. But to answer your question, no, we definitely don't need any additional legitimacy for our position. We have that in spades. The sheer number of people, even NPO members, posting that they understand why FAN is fighting has provided us with all the legitimacy anybody in CN could ever hope to have even in their wildest dreams. But, I have to admit, it's really nice to be fighting and to have an ironclad legitimacy to your battle. We have not been forced to defend our actions to anybody recently because they simply make perfect sense to all who view them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letum Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Jocko Homo' timestamp='1297106955' post='2624344'] The fact that you are stating that we (FAN) clearly don't need to gain any additional support via propaganda is brilliant considering you are saying this in an NPO propaganda thread. The sad (hilarious) fact that you have been attacked yet are still viewed with such disdain that you must try to propagandize your way out of it is just so awesome. Please guys, just surrender now. I promise we will be gentle. But to answer your question, no, we definitely don't need any additional legitimacy for our position. We have that in spades. The sheer number of people, even NPO members, posting that they understand why FAN is fighting has provided us with all the legitimacy anybody in CN could ever hope to have even in their wildest dreams. But, I have to admit, it's really nice to be fighting and to have an ironclad legitimacy to your battle. We have not been forced to defend our actions to anybody recently because they simply make perfect sense to all who view them. [/quote] I think perhaps you're confusing us understanding why you fight with you being granted some moral high ground. You aren't, and I'd be disappointed if FAN actually sought that. This war is blatant aggression, it is unfair, it is unjustified and it is unprovoked - those are fairly evident qualities, and they do not matter to me. From the more Machiavellian members of Doomhouse leadership who want us gone as a threat, to the more grudge-bearing members of MK and FAN, who want us gone because they dislike us - I take no issue with your motivations. But understanding does not mean everyone is behind you - though undoubtedly many people will. Understanding does not mean that you are somehow absolved from the responsibility for your actions, nor does it erase the negative human characteristics behind it. It simply means that we do not hold you to some requirement to act decently. We will however point out these facts behind your actions to the world, even if we do not assign great importance to them. Between our two alliances, they are immaterial, so we just invite you to bring it. But the eye of the world is upon us, and that eye will need a picture of this war. At the very least, our "propagandising" does not smack of the ridiculous double talk that you constantly seek to advance in order to paint your alliance in a better light by changing the rules of the game. If you do not feel the need to defend your actions, then own up to them. If you feel you have ironclad legitimacy, then do not shift the blame. If you feel you are understood, then be honest about your actions. If you do not need legitimacy, stop trying to gain it. And just fight. Edited February 7, 2011 by Letum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Letum' timestamp='1297109143' post='2624398']This war is blatant aggression, it is unfair, it is unjustified and it is unprovoked.[/quote] Isn't that cute. An NPO member crying that something is unfair. [img]http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/507/crying_baby.jpg[/img] There there little buddy, Uncle Jocko be here to keep the bad guys away. [quote name='Letum' timestamp='1297109143' post='2624398']If you do not need legitimacy, stop trying to gain it. And just fight.[/quote] As to fighting, well, 6 days ago I attacked 3 NPO nations, all larger than me. They have all three been in anarchy since about 5 minutes into the war. I still have not been in anarchy yet and all 3 of my defensive slots are still open. I am fighting 1v3 and it could be 1v6 but the biggest problem I face is getting all the NPO ass off my boots. So maybe you should dry your eyes and send some talent over to *at the very least* put me into anarchy. http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=288689 Edited February 7, 2011 by Jocko Homo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashoka the Great Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 In FAN's defense, I can state quite categorically that a representative from FAN (Jack Tarr, btw) was the first person to visit the reformed Nordreich with the intention of mending fences. They understood that 'Overlord' had been a PR disaster -- and, indeed, it was one of the reasons they were booted from the Initiative -- and did their best to convince us that such an incident would never be repeated. But even before Nordreich reformed, various members from both sides had put a fair bit of effort into ensuring that those kinds of misunderstandings never happened again. Now we're very good friends, and occasionally we go on benders together because way deep down we still kind of enjoy breaking other peoples' toys. Pacifica never made that kind of effort with us. During and after the Karma War it became clear that they had no interest in mending relations. Today our relationship might best described as 'meh'. We ignore each other for the most part. Or, to borrow a line from the great Moe Syzlak, we are well-wishers in the sense that we wish Pacifica no [i]specific[/i] harm. As to this particular issue of the Tabloid Tribune, it was OK. 6/10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocko Homo Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 [quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1297115198' post='2624500'] In FAN's defense, I can state quite categorically that a representative from FAN (Jack Tarr, btw) was the first person to visit the reformed Nordreich with the intention of mending fences. They understood that 'Overlord' had been a PR disaster -- and, indeed, it was one of the reasons they were booted from the Initiative -- [/quote] And to think it seemed like such a great idea at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Oh look it's another 'non official' Alliance Announcement designed to antagonise other alliances. Looks like Jocko Homo pretty comprehensively took your selective editing to pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.