An Announcement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[Aurion]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1290193895' post='2517543']
Well, behind the scenes Ardus may or may not be an asset, but as far as your trademarked yet recently less stellar Propaganda Machine is concerned, Ardus flops, looks bad and is a PR Fail. I mean, it's one thing to have Detlev or Voytek (and yeah, I completely understand STA, 'adds nothing' :-P), you kinda expect them to do that after awhile, but Ardus is supposed to be important. Ends up becoming a bit more like Olaf_Styfe.
[/quote]

So now you're just pulling comparisons out of your ass to try and make Ardus look bad?

Talk about a weak argument.

Edit: As a matter of fact, please [i]do[/i] elaborate. This ought to be good for some laughs.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Aurion

[Roadie]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1290190520' post='2517514']
Okay, not quite [i]everyone[/i]. But my point still stands.
[/quote]

Not really. They've always treated me very well also.

[SirWilliam]

MK has always treated me awfully.

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1290194386' post='2517545']
By contrast, this was an undiplomatic act aimed at the Mushroom Kingdom. It was pointed out in the OP that historically this has been used as justification for an attack and it could serve as the same now, [i]mutatis mutandis[/i]. It is worth noting that MK did not carry out this course of action, because times are different.
[/quote]

Were they actually legitimate diplomats? The assigned and [i]accepted[/i] ambassador (singular), MK FM, or members of senior MK council?

If not then I'd say it was more than just that times were different. It would be that the cases are different.

If they were just hanging out using the convenience mask then they were just guests subject to their host's hospitality.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1290195487' post='2517557']
Were they actually legitimate diplomats? The assigned and [i]accepted[/i] ambassador (singular), MK FM, or members of senior MK council?

If not then I'd say it was more than just that times were different. It would be that the cases are different.

If they were just hanging out using the convenience mask then they were just guests subject to their host's hospitality.
[/quote]As far as MK is concerned, tamerlane and Seerow were legitimate diplomats. I see no reason why NPO should treat them otherwise.

[Krunk the Great]

From the show I have seen from certain diplomats in certain foreign forums, I am not surprised that MK diplomats would be kicked out.

I believe the old generalization goes "One diplomat defines the opinion of his alliance" or something like that.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1290194579' post='2517546']
So now you're just pulling comparisons out of your ass to try and make Ardus look bad?

Talk about a weak argument.

Edit: As a matter of fact, please [i]do[/i] elaborate. This ought to be good for some laughs.
[/quote]

All of the pulling random comparisons? That was my Dennis Miller bit on CN OWF

Basically, Ardus makes some of the most transparently !@#$%^&* posts and responses, which is why he's not a good fit if you're trying to improve your PR. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out, if not obvious.

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1290200527' post='2517613']
All of the pulling random comparisons? That was my Dennis Miller bit on CN OWF

Basically, Ardus makes some of the most transparently !@#$%^&* posts and responses, which is why he's not a good fit if you're trying to improve your PR. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out, if not obvious.
[/quote]Duly noted, the NSO's recommendation for PR management is that we get rid of Ardus. Doubtless this will be put into action within the hour.

[Letum]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1290194386' post='2517545']
By contrast, this was an undiplomatic act aimed at the Mushroom Kingdom. It was pointed out in the OP that historically this has been used as justification for an attack and it could serve as the same now, [i]mutatis mutandis[/i]. It is worth noting that MK did not carry out this course of action, because times are different.
[/quote]

[i]Historically[/i] such justifications were a minor point within a paragraph that included things such as aiding an enemy, a justification which has also been part of some much more [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Million_Dollar_War"]Recent History[/url]. But of course, MK conveniently ignores that because their PR agenda is served by making wild - and false - implications that allegedly "lesser" alliances would go to war over acts no greater than editing of posts.

It is worth noting that this comes on the back of MK's very recent historic behaviour of condemning such "PR Wars" as a "[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=94470"]wilful and blatant assault[/url]" that merits a monetary price.

You illustrate yourself how casually this propaganda has seeped into the self-legitimization that MK needs to keep NPO in the corner: "because times are different". So different, that an alliance which issues a [b]48 hour ultimatum[/b] for a "PR War" over [i]reparations for an already expelled[/i] aid thief feels the need to [u]blatantly spin[/u] the cause of a war which involved an alliance waiting for [b]3 months[/b] for the [i]expulsion[/i] of an aid rogue.

Let's stop pretending that this was about being all nice and just "letting everyone know", shall we?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Letum

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1290198421' post='2517594']
As far as MK is concerned, tamerlane and Seerow were legitimate diplomats. I see no reason why NPO should treat them otherwise.
[/quote]

If they weren't in one of the three classifications then they were not. An alliance is only required to recognize listed senior leadership from another alliance. They are also required to recognize the designated ambassador (singular) once they have said they accept him as such.

To do anything else opens the door for any member of any alliance to demand official standing anywhere they go. That would make everyone in CN with an AA an official diplomat with power to demand satisfaction or face consequences that all alliances must deal with. No room in that plan for screwups, jerks, and trolls.

These embassy customs were established a very long time ago for a very good reason. To ensure that gaffes by junior members did not dictate alliance policy and official repercussions.

[Scorbolt]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1290201843' post='2517628']
If they weren't in one of the three classifications then they were not. An alliance is only required to recognize listed senior leadership from another alliance. They are also required to recognize the designated ambassador (singular) once they have said they accept him as such.

To do anything else opens the door for any member of any alliance to demand official standing anywhere they go. That would make everyone in CN with an AA an official diplomat with power to demand satisfaction or face consequences that all alliances must deal with. No room in that plan for screwups, jerks, and trolls.

These embassy customs were established a very long time ago for a very good reason. To ensure that gaffes by junior members did not dictate alliance policy and official repercussions.
[/quote]

I don't know about this situation but usually when you are masked you are granted a Diplomat mask on foreign forums. Any member of an alliance who comes over and is granted this mask HAS official standing if they are acting on behalf of their alliance.

It's not a matter of demanding anything... nor do these alliances lack the power to simply ask for other representatives from the sending alliance.

You know, I really don't understand what you are trying to say. It doesn't make much sense at all.

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1290195064' post='2517552']
Not really. They've always treated me very well also.
[/quote]

Regardless, I have no doubt whatsoever that if you lined up all the people that had been insulted by MK at their HQ opposite a line of everyone who hadn't been insulted...I'm quite sure you'd find the former much longer than the latter.

[Scorbolt]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1290203939' post='2517652']
Regardless, I have no doubt whatsoever that if you lined up all the people that had been insulted by MK at their HQ opposite a line of everyone who hadn't been insulted...I'm quite sure you'd find the former much longer than the latter.
[/quote]

I will put my tech against this claim.

[Cager]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1290203939' post='2517652']
Regardless, I have no doubt whatsoever that if you lined up all the people that had been insulted by MK at their HQ opposite a line of everyone who hadn't been insulted...I'm quite sure you'd find the former much longer than the latter.
[/quote]

Define "insulted". There's taking offense to something being said or just something offensive being said.

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Scorbolt' timestamp='1290202647' post='2517639']
I don't know about this situation but usually when you are masked you are granted a Diplomat mask on foreign forums. Any member of an alliance who comes over and is granted this mask HAS official standing if they are acting on behalf of their alliance.

It's not a matter of demanding anything... nor do these alliances lack the power to simply ask for other representatives from the sending alliance.

You know, I really don't understand what you are trying to say. It doesn't make much sense at all.
[/quote]


Yes it does. I've covered this more in depth if you go a few pages back. Saying it repeatedly for every person is a waste of all our time.

Most people only get masked as a diplomat for an alliance as a matter of convenience so that forum managers are not forced to create special masks for every person who comes. Someone who comes to visit and hang out is also given the same mask as a senior alliance official, but we all know they aren't the same. Is a 2 month n00b who drops by to socialize the same as the FM from his alliance? Can they both demand the same diplomatic authority? No. But they usually get the same mask. A mask is not a guarantee of diplomatic status. It is a vehicle of convenience. It is the recognized standing of a person that confers diplomatic status, not their mask. Recognized standing comes from two sources. Posted public leadership status or declared acceptance by the other alliance that the person is actually a diplomat. Simply showing up grants no diplomatic status.

It's their home. In their home you are a guest. Act as they ask or leave when told. Simple as that, really. Furthermore the great Lord Admin has declared our alliance homes as sacrosanct. You cannot tell an alliance how they should run their home.

[Scorbolt]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1290204635' post='2517663']
Yes it does. I've covered this more in depth if you go a few pages back. Saying it repeatedly for every person is a waste of all our time.

Most people only get masked as a diplomat for an alliance as a matter of convenience so that forum managers are not forced to create special masks for every person who comes. Someone who comes to visit and hang out is also given the same mask as a senior alliance official, but we all know they aren't the same. Is a 2 month n00b who drops by to socialize the same as the FM from his alliance? Can they both demand the same diplomatic authority? No. But they usually get the same mask. A mask is not a guarantee of diplomatic status. It is a vehicle of convenience. It is the recognized standing of a person that confers diplomatic status, not their mask. Recognized standing comes from two sources. Posted public leadership status or declared acceptance by the other alliance that the person is actually a diplomat. Simply showing up grants no diplomatic status.

It's their home. In their home you are a guest. Act as they ask or leave when told. Simple as that, really. Furthermore the great Lord Admin has declared our alliance homes as sacrosanct. You cannot tell an alliance how they should run their home.
[/quote]

Are you trying to relate this to the issue in this thread? Our envoys were certainly not 2 month n00bs.

Certainly, alliances are welcome to run their home as they wish. It is our prerogative to criticize their choices when they choose a course which slights an alliance.

Your last post said that their was some sort of mandate for an alliance to recognize government and only one diplomat. I contest this, there is certainly no reason why a diplomatic team should not be recognized as such. It is totally ridiculous to suggest there is such a sacred code of alliance interactions much less base an argument around this concept. Hence I cannot make sense of what you are saying.

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1290204548' post='2517660']
Define "insulted". There's taking offense to something being said or just something offensive being said.
[/quote]

My meaning encompasses both of those, though I'm leaning more towards the former than the latter. In any case, I doubt there's a solid method of deciding that matter, short of organising a poll and physically asking everyone, which is retrograde beyond usefulness.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1290203939' post='2517652']
Regardless, I have no doubt whatsoever that if you lined up all the people that had been insulted by MK at their HQ opposite a line of everyone who hadn't been insulted...I'm quite sure you'd find the former much longer than the latter.
[/quote]
Honestly, you need to cut your loses here. Responses from you so far:

> MK treaty *everyone* badly

> Okay, they treaty everyone but you badly

> Okay, they treat most people badly

Are you even on our boards? Or are you just plucking this out of thin air?

[Hadrian]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1290206205' post='2517688']
Honestly, you need to cut your loses here. Responses from you so far:

> MK treaty *everyone* badly

> Okay, they treaty everyone but you badly

> Okay, they treat most people badly

Are you even on our boards? Or are you just plucking this out of thin air?
[/quote]

[i]I[/i] need to cut [i]my[/i] losses? That's funny, man. Really amusing, I gotta say. I ain't the one in an alliance that just took a PR beatdown.

No, I'm not on your boards. And that's exactly what you should be concerned about: the fact that I don't have to be in order to make that statement.

[Kalasin]

This is *exactly* the sort of CB NPO would've rolled on.

Edit: gah. I can't even structure a sentence properly when I've had a beer.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Kalasin

[xoindotnler]

We are walking in circles now, completely ignoring everything that was said (and we didn't like). God I love these kind of topics, are we even trying these days?

Edited November 19, 2010 by xoindotnler

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Scorbolt' timestamp='1290205274' post='2517673']
Are you trying to relate this to the issue in this thread? Our envoys were certainly not 2 month n00bs.[/quote]

In the OP and elsewhere in this thread this incident has been indirectly related to an incident with Dilber to give it weight of impact.

My entire point so far is that the incidents are not remotely the same.

If you still choose to be mad about it then be my guest, but don't expect [b]us[/b] to see the incidents as similar. The stated purpose of this thread was to inform the rest of Bob that you are mad about this and that we should see it in the same light as what happened with Dilber. It may seem the same to you, but for many of us we simply do not believe the incidents carry the same gravity.

[quote]Your last post said that their was some sort of mandate for an alliance to recognize government and only one diplomat. I contest this, there is certainly no reason why a diplomatic team should not be recognized as such.[/quote]

Did you officially and explicitly designate them as diplomatic corps? Did NPO explicitly agree? The only people an alliance must automatically recognize as an official diplomat is a publicly posted leader. Anyone else gets that status only with the other alliance's agreement. Otherwise any alliance could spam their entire membership over and demand diplomatic preference and authority. Any n00b or old troll could drop by and tell them what he expects them to do to avoid war under the everyone-is-a-diplomat model.

What if tomorrow every member of NPO came over to MK and said to mask them as a diplomat and expect you to hold diplomatic conference with all of them? The system works for your benefit as well.

As for you not recognizing the source of this it is based in pre-GW2 standards when there was no IRC and embassies were custom bound. You may not like these old customs but they exist and have the precedence of time on their side. It kept idiots from starting wars neither side wanted. As NPO is one of the earliest alliances it is no surprise at all that they would still recognize these old standards.

You might have a far better case here if you display the actual consent by Pacifica that these members were recognized as official ambassadorial crew with the authority to speak for your alliance in all matters.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1290206714' post='2517699']
No, I'm not on your boards.
[/quote]
So the fact you aren't on our boards makes you an authority on what takes place there? Oh you.

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1290206714' post='2517699']
And that's exactly what you should be concerned about: the fact that I don't have to be in order to make that statement.[/quote]
I'm not concerned with this at all. I learnt a long time ago that some people will make baseless statements about !@#$ they don't know about. If I was concerned about every post someone made about events or issues they had no knowledge of, I would be a very worried man. The fact you're admitting that you have no knowledge here [i]is[/i] hilarious though.

[Scorbolt]

[quote name='Hadrian' timestamp='1290206714' post='2517699']
[i]I[/i] need to cut [i]my[/i] losses? That's funny, man. Really amusing, I gotta say. I ain't the one in an alliance that just took a PR beatdown.

No, I'm not on your boards. And that's exactly what you should be concerned about: the fact that I don't have to be in order to make that statement.
[/quote]

I would be more concerned about making statements with no basis outside of hearsay (at best). I doubt you even relied on that to construct your sham of a tale.

As you have now confirmed for everyone you do nothing but make nebulous claims. If you ever seek to be taken seriously I would take Banksy's advice.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1290206764' post='2517701']
This is *exactly* the sort of CB NPO would've used to roll on.
[/quote]
And ODN used to run from a fight quicker than you could say treaty suspention. However ODN claim they changed, even though its *exactly* the sort of thing ODN used to do they dont anymore & say you cant use their past to judge them today.

I understand your point, alliances never change.