Minus 10k since Karma and possible reasons why...

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285983657' post='2471762']
He was MoFA of ROK, how is that lower Gov?
[/quote]

It's lower gov considering that spot in RoK gets you nowhere near any of the higher backchannels.

[Denial]

[quote name='Xerxer' timestamp='1285985703' post='2471791']
You could start by pointing out where exactly the rubbish is, then maybe we'd have something...
[/quote]
I'd begin with the entirety of the original post.

[Ruhani]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285985084' post='2471781']
So you agree that the end of the Karma War caused many nations to cease to exist from both the victorious and losing sides of the war? Further, you agree that the fact that power lies in a handful of people also causes nations to cease to exist because of the realization that the chances they will ever matter is slim to none?

You agree since you state its common knowledge?

(tbh, i dont think you or Ruhani read a damn thing. It's just my NSO Groupies coming out to play)
[/quote]

Why bother reading it after this line -

[quote]My nation declared its existence in June 2009.[/quote]

Who else besides you cares?

[Aurion]

It's not a good sign that I could do a better job of talking out of my ass (and sound much more plausible about it, too!) about what goes on in SF than a guy who was Rok's MoFA can... and I'm not a delegate, not even lower gov, and don't have access to [i]any[/i] of the secret channels. Ffs.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Aurion

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1285985818' post='2471793']
It's lower gov considering that spot in RoK gets you nowhere near any of the higher backchannels.
[/quote]
This statement strengthens my OP.

Xiph, its great and I fully understand about backchannels and elites controlling things. I even told Xerxer that. But, I believe so much power concentrated in so few is what drives nations out.

In fact, alliances leaders that could have the power and yet are unable or incompetent or lack the ambition to forge their own way contribute to the horrible stagnation on planet bob. Many alliance leaders are quite happy being tangled in the web when they should be thinking of ways to create their own influential corner of the web. These types of leaders also actually do a disservice to their alliance members by making their members be exactly like them. Once these worthless leaders retire, the new blood will most likely step in and continue the stupid status quo.

If alliance leaders are going to be alliance leaders they need to actually act like leaders. Your members know if you're having to go to another ally for support if you want to make war, or push an agenda, etc. Yes, you are allies but if your ally says no and you stop just because of it, then you are no leader.

Like I said, many alliances will only accomplish milestone announcements. Don't you guys want to be better than that? Don't you want to be remembered differently?

Edited October 2, 2010 by Fernando12

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285986731' post='2471812']
This statement strengthens my OP.

Xiph, its great and I fully understand about backchannels and elites controlling things. I even told Xerxer that. But, I believe so much power concentrated in so few is what drives nations out.
[/quote]

I believe I don't care.

[Starcraftmazter]

Fnka did not ask Hoo before declaring war. Too many alliances are complete panzies which is your problem (not aimed at NoR).

PS. Xiphosis sure is a hot head

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1285985818' post='2471793']
It's lower gov considering that spot in RoK gets you nowhere near any of the higher backchannels.
[/quote]

Did Hoo tell you this? Might want to check with him first.

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285986513' post='2471810']
It's not a good sign that I could do a better job of talking out of my ass (and sound much more plausible about it, too!) about what goes on in SF than a guy who was Rok's MoFA can... and I'm not a delegate, not even lower gov, and don't have access to [i]any[/i] of the secret channels. Ffs.
[/quote]

I hope RoK has their big boy pants on today with all these insults.

Edited October 2, 2010 by SpoiL

[Aurion]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285987638' post='2471826']
I hope RoK has their big boy pants on today with all these insults.
[/quote]

It's pathetic that a guy with even as much access as he had couldn't come up with something better. That's more his fault than it is Rok's if you ask me.

I do appreciate the poor attempt at word-twisting though.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285988064' post='2471836']
It's pathetic that a guy with even as much access as he had couldn't come up with something better. That's more his fault than it is Rok's if you ask me.

I do appreciate the poor attempt at word-twisting though.
[/quote]

Thank you for clearing that up. Clearly you are better at word twisting then I am. Bravo, sir.

roflwaffle

Edited October 2, 2010 by SpoiL

[Aurion]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285988182' post='2471840']
Clearly you do a better job at word twisting then I do. Bravo, sir.

roflwaffle
[/quote]

Saying your attempts suck isn't [i]quite[/i] the same thing as saying "mine are better".

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285987638' post='2471826']
Did Hoo tell you this? Might want to check with him first.
[/quote]

I don't need Hoo to tell me who's in channels I'm in myself.

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285973345' post='2471544']
[22:06] <Xerxer> Entirety of NSO war? Hoo got angry, hit the red button.
[22:06] <Xerxer> Diplomatic talks WERE taking place.
01[22:07] <Fernando12> we know this
01[22:07] <Fernando12> its no secret
[22:07] <Xerxer> Our FA staff was told to cease all communications.
[22:07] <Xerxer> We were told to hide from NSO, to get out of public channels, to provide them with NO chance to rectify the situation.
[/quote]

There's something deliciously ironic/duplicitus about this part. I can't quite place it...

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285985031' post='2471779']
He's [i]literally[/i] talking out of his ass?
[/quote]

There we go. And heh, such would be quite a sight to see...if I downed a handle of jack first. Literally.

Edited October 2, 2010 by mythicknight

[Xerxer]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1285988405' post='2471846']
I don't need Hoo to tell me who's in channels I'm in myself.
[/quote]

The real magic happens in channels that Hoo's in by himself.

[Ejayrazz]

I must agree with Xerxer too a certain extent; alliances ARE completely idiotic these days. An ally of an ally is NOT my ally, and if I have an issue with them, I will attack them. If my men follow my lead, or I follow theirs, ultimately we'll do what our membership wants. If my ally tells me "No, you can't do that," they are no longer an ally in my opinion. They can voice their concerns, but ultimately we're all independently sovereign. Problem is, people sign treaties like candy, making them practically useless in the long run. It's not MY fault YOU'RE political whores adding to the constant stagnation, and any alliance with many allies should at least accept this notion.

I know some were concerned with VE and Ninjas. We cancelled with VE because we didn't wish to drag them into this, but ultimately we kept our mouths closed because VE were allied to GOONS (unfortunately), and telling them would have put them in a severely awkward position. Don't put good people in awkward positions, because ultimately they would have broken someone's trust. And guess what? VE understands this, because they're good people. Other alliances, which I will not name (No, not you GOONS) would throw a hissy fit, !@#$%*, and cry injustice. Those people are slowly beginning to piss people off and if they don't straighten their act up, they'll be on the receiving end.

Am I right? Who knows, but my points are in terms of how allies can be in general rather than Xerxer's specific story at hand

Edited October 2, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285988401' post='2471845']
Saying your attempts suck isn't [i]quite[/i] the same thing as saying "mine are better".
[/quote]

Right, so I was only acknowledging your damage control. Your post is insulting and belittling to RoK's government positions and needs no twisting of words. All it needed was quoting.

[Aurion]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285988857' post='2471855']
Right, so I was only acknowledging your damage control. Your post is insulting and belittling to RoK's government positions and needs no twisting of words. All it needed was quoting.
[/quote]

Oh, so instead of just trying to spin you're doing it [i]and[/i] trying too hard.

If you wanted to imply we're dismissive of Rok's MoFA post, there's a better post you could have used. I'm not sure how well using it would work if this is how you usually try and argue a point, but... hey, it's the thought that counts.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1285988405' post='2471846']
I don't need Hoo to tell me who's in channels I'm in myself.
[/quote]

So all your allies that aren't in the private channel are irrelevant. Right-o


[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285989055' post='2471857']
Oh, so instead of just trying to spin you're doing it [i]and[/i] trying too hard.

If you wanted to imply we're dismissive of Rok's MoFA post, there's a better post you could have used. I'm not sure how well using it would work if this is how you usually try and argue a point, but... hey, it's the thought that counts.
[/quote]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Edited October 2, 2010 by SpoiL

[Aurion]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285989072' post='2471858']
I have no idea what you are talking about.
[/quote]



[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285988857' post='2471855']
Right, so I was only acknowledging your damage control. Your post is insulting and belittling to RoK's government positions and needs no twisting of words. All it needed was quoting.
[/quote]

Jog your memory at all? You didn't pick a very good post for your little dig, but I don't think it would make much difference if this is your standard fare.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Aurion

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285989331' post='2471865']
Jog your memory at all? You didn't pick a very good post for your little dig, but I don't think it would make much difference if this is your standard fare.
[/quote]

k, I'll bite.

[quote]If you wanted to imply we're dismissive of Rok's MoFA post[/quote]

It isn't implying when I am openly telling you that the very words you said are insulting and belittling RoK government and membership.

As for the rest, I guess you are trying to tell me that there are more insulting things that you've said about your ally that I could've quoted. I don't care?..

[Xiphosis]

Oh SpoiL you awful, awful spin doctor. Let me lay it out clearly:

[quote]Me: It's lower gov considering that spot in RoK gets you nowhere near any of the higher backchannels.

You: Did Hoo tell you this? Might want to check with him first.

Me: I don't need Hoo to tell me who's in channels I'm in myself.

You: So all your allies that aren't in the private channel are irrelevant. Right-o[/quote]

You're like Vladimir with a worse vocabulary, no grasp of basic logic, and a complete inability to keep one line of thought.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Xiphosis

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285985084' post='2471781']
So you agree that the end of the Karma War caused many nations to cease to exist from both the victorious and losing sides of the war? Further, you agree that the fact that power lies in a handful of people also causes nations to cease to exist because of the realization that the chances they will ever matter is slim to none?

You agree since you state its common knowledge?

(tbh, i dont think you or Ruhani read a damn thing. It's just my NSO Groupies coming out to play)
[/quote]

I read your OP. Don't take me for a fool I've been here longer then you have son. At the end of every major war people leave for they just give up on their nation being ruined for said war. But most of the time new nations would replace those who left. That was not the case at the end of the Karma War.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1285989923' post='2471874']
Oh SpoiL you awful, awful spin doctor. Let me lay it out clearly:



You're like Vladimir with a worse vocabulary, no grasp of basic logic, and a complete inability to keep one line of thought.
[/quote]

I was here for all those so I don't know what you're getting at. Let me lay it out for you:

You are trying to discredit Xerxer because he's leaked sensitive info relative to you and yours. You do this by belittling the government position he held as being one of insignificance, uninformed, irrelevant, inconsequential, etc (Hope those words were big enough for you). And if the MoFA doesn't know, surely the little RoKlings are all the more clueless. Maybe this is what Hoo would want

[Aurion]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285989721' post='2471872']
k, I'll bite.
[/quote]

Good!


[quote]It isn't implying when I am openly telling you that the very words you said are insulting and belittling RoK government and membership. [/quote]

Oh god, I (or anyone would work really) belittled a guy who held a government post in an alliance. This has [i]never happened before[/i]. Former ally or not, whatever the reason for it, Xerxer failed terribly at this.

Deal with it?

Double edit: I mean [i]seriously.[/i] In those logs Fernando is actually closer to talking sense than he is. Fernando! Neither of them's exactly what I'd call on point but damn man that's...bad.

[quote]
As for the rest, I guess you are trying to tell me that there are more insulting things that you've said about your ally that I could've quoted. I don't care?..
[/quote]

If you're going to try for it, you should at least have picked an example that doesn't make you look like a complete fool....you'd have merely looked foolish.

Edit: Assuming that isn't what you're aiming for. If it is I apologize.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Aurion

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285976010' post='2471619']
Maybe read the entire OP and follow the conversation instead of making silly smart ass comments. You know what I meant and that is that it is more likely that most of us will never do anything to matter much on Bob so some choose leave, some of us stay - a large portions is leaving is what is at issue and what the causes of their departure was - I gave my take in the OP, would you care to give your take or continue being a smarty?
[/quote]

You miss the part where ability and competence come into play. Some people (like you) are manifestly not capable/suitable to be a world leader, you don't get there because you don't have the means.

People with the talent, drive, and ability work at it and gain prominence in the world.

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285985031' post='2471779']
He's [i]literally[/i] talking out of his ass?
[/quote]

It wouldn't surprise me to be honest.

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285990436' post='2471880']
I was here for all those so I don't know what you're getting at. Let me lay it out for you:

You are trying to discredit Xerxer because he's leaked sensitive info relative to you and yours. [/quote]


What sensitive info? his OP is full of his (flawed) view of politics. The closest thing to a secret in there is that RoK deliberately avoided talking to NSO just before the shooting started, if accurate that's not exactly ground breaking news as others have already indicated.