Forcing alliances to disband is back

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Edifice' timestamp='1285867738' post='2469905']
I believe the common argument is "you can't force an alliance to disband, it's a decision they make themselves".
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]When an alliance is unable to get peace, then it really has no choice but to call it quits. There are very few alliances capable of surviving months upon months of war.[/color]

[KCToker]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285881796' post='2470196']
[color="#0000FF"]When an alliance is unable to get peace, then it really has no choice but to call it quits. There are very few alliances capable of surviving months upon months of war.[/color]
[/quote]
It's a choice they made when they started an aggressive war. If they had been the ones attacked, the situation would be very different. But they chose this path, if they end up warring for months on end, the only responsibility for that lies with them, not GOONS.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='KCToker' timestamp='1285883170' post='2470222']
It's a choice they made when they started an aggressive war. If they had been the ones attacked, the situation would be very different. But they chose this path, if they end up warring for months on end, the only responsibility for that lies with them, not GOONS.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I truly do hate that line of reasoning. It is rubbish logic like this, with grant no quarter and show no mercy, that deters anyone from doing anything at all, unless they have massively superior odds, because the consequences will most certainly be either disbandment or extremely harsh reps. It is this lack of compassion, and the extreme sadism shown by victors towards the vanquished, that has led to today's political stagnation. Frankly this is something that needs to be changed.[/color]

Edited September 30, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Uralica]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285883403' post='2470228']
[color="#0000FF"]It is this lack of compassion, and the extreme sadism shown by victors towards the vanquished, which is what has led to today's political stagnation. Frankly this is something that needs to be changed.[/color]
[/quote]

Agreed entirely. Which is why part of me would hate to see TOOL ever be directly at war with certain alliances. (Although part of me would enjoy the challenge of battle against a worthy opponent.) Granted, if TOOL were to win a war and "officially" ask for disproportionate reps or anything like that, I'd resign on the spot.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1285870024' post='2469955']
I thought you couldn't force an alliance to disband
[/quote]You can't, and this thread is dumb.

What you can do, however, is keep someone in perpetual war while giving some 'terms' that they can't possibly hope to complete, or that would be stupid for them to accept, and then claim that you're 'giving them an option' to make yourself look like the good guy, something that has happened throughout history. The alliance getting smashed may or may not disband under that pressure, depending on how strong their will is.

It remains to be seen what GOONS will do, and if anything this thread is extremely premature. A whole new thread is quite an overreaction to some cute little toughguy posturing from Sardonic.

[KCToker]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285883403' post='2470228']
[color="#0000FF"]I truly do hate that line of reasoning. It is rubbish logic like this, with grant no quarter and show no mercy, that deters anyone from doing anything at all, unless they have massively superior odds, because the consequences will most certainly be either disbandment or extremely harsh reps. It is this lack of compassion, and the extreme sadism shown by victors towards the vanquished, that has led to today's political stagnation. Frankly this is something that needs to be changed.[/color]
[/quote]
I never said mercy should not be given, but it has been made pretty clear by the aggressors that they are going to continue this until one of them is destroyed. Until they change their minds, the only two possible outcomes are disbandment or months of war.

Edited September 30, 2010 by KCToker

[Moridin]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285881796' post='2470196']
When an alliance is unable to get peace, then it really has no choice but to call it quits. There are very few alliances capable of surviving months upon months of war.
[/quote]

That's garbage. Only weak alliances cannot survive months upon months of war; I'd say there's plenty of alliances out there that could do it pretty easily. The argument that you can't force an alliance to disband is a perfectly valid one; all that the victor of a war can do is simply not agree to a peace treaty. Whether the weaker alliance in the situation decides to bunker down and prepare for the long haul, or just give up depends entirely upon the strength and character of its members. What this does [i]not[/i] mean is that refusing to agree to a peace treaty is a laudable or even remotely acceptable stance on the part of the stronger alliance. I agree that heavy-handed peace terms (or lack of peace terms at all) do contribute to stagnation, but that doesn't mean we need to propagate the myth that you can somehow force an alliance to disband.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Moridin

[Schmoo]

This is quite possibly the most idiotic smear attempt I have ever witnessed. Alterego, you and a handful of other posters I will not name should just go away. You are not helping anyone that hopes for GOONS demise.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1285884759' post='2470253']
That's garbage. Only weak alliances cannot survive months upon months of war; I'd say there's plenty of alliances out there that could do it pretty easily. The argument that you can't force an alliance to disband is a perfectly valid one; all that the victor of a war can do is simply not agree to a peace treaty. Whether the weaker alliance in the situation decides to bunker down and prepare for the long haul, or just give up depends entirely upon the strength and character of its members. What this does [i]not[/i] mean is that refusing to agree to a peace treaty is a laudable or even remotely acceptable stance on the part of the stronger alliance. I agree that heavy-handed peace terms (or lack of peace terms at all) do contribute to stagnation, but that doesn't mean we need to propagate the myth that you can somehow force an alliance to disband.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]So, how long should one remain at war? Six months? A year? More? And we're not talking about alliances like NPO, NpO, or MK, alliances with large communities. When we're talking about small to mid-sized alliances, oftentimes it just isn't worth it. While it is true that they are the ones who choose to formally disband, it is often others who deny them any other choice but disbandment or perpetual war, forcing that decision upon them.[/color]

[Moridin]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285885178' post='2470266']So, how long should one remain at war? Six months? A year? More? And we're not talking about alliances like NPO, NpO, or MK, alliances with large communities. When we're talking about small to mid-sized alliances, oftentimes it just isn't worth it. While it is true that they are the ones who choose to formally disband, it is often others who deny them any other choice but disbandment or perpetual war, forcing that decision upon them.[/quote]

To some extent it depends on the circumstances - whether the victor was also the aggressor, how even the odds are, so on and so forth. Given my extreme distaste for GOONS it is hard to picture myself in their shoes, but I imagine in their situation I'd probably let the war drag on for a month or so then offer a white peace. Of course, I have no illusions that that's what GOONS will do, but anything more than that I would probably find excessive - unless of course the Ninjas were also interested in continuing the war at that point.

edit: I believe I misread your post, I interpreted it as asking how long the victor should wait before offering peace. If you're talking about how long before the loser should give up, it once again depends on the circumstances. How much do you care about your alliance, and what you're fighting for? How long could it take for your 'oppressor' to lose a major war? If the members care deeply about the alliance, there's no reason to give up at all. Fighting a war when you have nothing left to lose can be quite fun.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Moridin

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='KCToker' timestamp='1285884516' post='2470250']
I never said mercy should not be given, but it has been made pretty clear by the aggressors that they are going to continue this until one of them is destroyed. Until they change their minds, the only two possible outcomes are disbandment or months of war.
[/quote]If you don't take Sardonic's words seriously, you can't take Ninjas/FnKa's words seriously either. You know as well as I that both are just puffing out their chests and throwing big words at each other to try and sound intimidating.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Schmoo' timestamp='1285884866' post='2470256']
This is quite possibly the most idiotic smear attempt I have ever witnessed. Alterego, you and a handful of other posters I will not name should just go away. You are not helping anyone that hopes for GOONS demise.
[/quote]
That might be what you want but I post for my own amusement and not to bring about anyones demise. I dont care if you and others like or dislike what I say I will say it regardless. If you or anyone else feels the need to try to shut me up I'm easy to find.

[KCToker]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285885691' post='2470277']
If you don't take Sardonic's words seriously, you can't take Ninjas/FnKa's words seriously either. You know as well as I that both are just puffing out their chests and throwing big words at each other to try and sound intimidating.
[/quote]
I'm taking Sardonic's words quite seriously, it's just that I know how to read, so I understand what he was saying.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='KCToker' timestamp='1285886040' post='2470280']
I'm taking Sardonic's words quite seriously, it's just that I know how to read, so I understand what he was saying.
[/quote]I assume you mean the "they have 2 options to get out of war, disband or pay our terms." Which is of course the set of options, besides "win the war," which clearly isn't available at this time, for any alliance to get out of any war.

But apparently you didn't catch the implicit intimidation involved, the implicit "Our terms are gonna be really steep" part. It's OK, not everyone knows how to read past just the lines of text.

But hey, at least you can read and understand the literal meaning of a piece of text, that in itself is leaps and bounds above the capacity of a majority of this world's leaders.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1285885518' post='2470273']
To some extent it depends on the circumstances - whether the victor was also the aggressor, how even the odds are, so on and so forth. Given my extreme distaste for GOONS it is hard to picture myself in their shoes, but I imagine in their situation I'd probably let the war drag on for a month or so then offer a white peace. Of course, I have no illusions that that's what GOONS will do, but anything more than that I would probably find excessive - unless of course the Ninjas were also interested in continuing the war at that point.

edit: I believe I misread your post, I interpreted it as asking how long the victor should wait before offering peace. If you're talking about how long before the loser should give up, it once again depends on the circumstances. How much do you care about your alliance, and what you're fighting for? How long could it take for your 'oppressor' to lose a major war? If the members care deeply about the alliance, there's no reason to give up at all. Fighting a war when you have nothing left to lose can be quite fun.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I've no issue fighting. I merely fail to see how the "only you can disband yourself" line of thought justifies eternal war.[/color]

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285886789' post='2470283']
[color="#0000FF"]I've no issue fighting. I merely fail to see how the "only you can disband yourself" line of thought justifies eternal war.[/color]
[/quote]It doesn't, but it's important to be clear on what exactly is going on. When you say X is forcing Y to disband, you are misspeaking and setting yourself up to be easily beaten in a debate. If GOONS decides to offer impossible terms as the only way out, they are forcing eternal war, but they are not forcing anyone to disband.

[Bilrow]

You can't "force" an alliance to disband. If they are worth anything as an alliance, war no matter if held in war for an unduly long time like NPO did FAN wrongly, won't cause them to disband. If they aren't worth anything they will disband quickly at threat of war or an attempt to save their nations.

Of course, that only addresses the OP, and doesn't get into the conversation of what is too long for war, what is over demanding to require someone to surrender, etc.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Bilrow

[Moridin]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285886789' post='2470283']I've no issue fighting. I merely fail to see how the "only you can disband yourself" line of thought justifies eternal war.[/quote]

It doesn't, and I said as much in my first post in this thread.

[New Frontier]

GOONS isn't threatening "disproportionate" reps. They're threatening reps, period. If Ninjas refuses any terms, then yeah, they'll probably disband.

[ktarthan]

Giving an alliance the choice between war and disbandment is not the same as giving an alliance the choice between war and reps.

If the reps are not sincere and are offered with the intent that they will be rejected anyways then that blurs the line between the two, but I very much doubt that's what anyone from GOONS wishes.

That being said, whether or not everyone agrees with the size of the reps, or even with the concept of reps, is an entirely different discussion.

[wickedj]

[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1285872183' post='2469993']
GOONS won't forcefully disband anyone. They aren't TPF.

Will they hold them in war until Ninjas surrender to terms? Of course. They should.
[/quote]
So..whats the difference between 2010 and 2007?

[quote]GOONS isn't threatening "disproportionate" reps. They're threatening reps, period. If Ninjas refuses any terms, then yeah, they'll probably disband. [/quote]
Clearly you dont know who Ejay has recruited for his alliance. I dont see disbandment in their future unless a higher power strikes them down

Edited September 30, 2010 by wickedj

[the rebel]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1285888520' post='2470308']
GOONS isn't threatening "disproportionate" reps. They're threatening reps, period. If Ninjas refuses any terms, then yeah, they'll probably disband.
[/quote]

If you go by what they charge for 3-4.5mill in aid, the reps could be in the billions

[Horatio Longworth]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285881571' post='2470188']
I guess it depends on how long they want to fight. I believe one of theirs said they had the funds to fight for a couple of years at mid-range. So unless they actually do fight for a couple of years, at least that one should be able to pay some reps, although I'm sure others of theirs are similarly prepared.

Edit: Also thanks for not blaming us for something that hasn't happened. That's actually a rational way to approach things.
[/quote]
I love being rational.


**[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285890337' post='2470343']
If you go by what they charge for 3-4.5mill in aid, the reps could be in the billions
[/quote]
12 men X 90 mil = 1.08 Billion. That could take a while.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Horatio Longworth

[CEverettKoop]

There are plenty of reasons to hate us. Stick with those instead of what you come up with in your fantasy future.

Also, it's a little early to be talking about the endgame in these wars. We're gonna brawl until they say "no mas", and then we'll figure out what to do from there.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Horatio Longworth' timestamp='1285890406' post='2470344']
**
12 men X 90 mil = 1.08 Billion. That could take a while.[/quote]

Or 36000 tech... but wait the days of harsh reps is over...