GOON spy orders

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285529438' post='2465351']
Even though they are rogues, when they are part of a "legitimate" alliance, this makes them rogue no more?

Could you explain this to me?
[/quote]Numerous people have already explained what it means to be a rogue (I'm particularly fond of Cortath's assessment of Rogues vs. Rational State Actors, of which Metherage and crew are the latter). I won't bother repeating them because I don't expect you to grasp the basic concepts, but as long as you keep repeating this garbage, the record has to be set straight.

None of the nine nations now sitting under the KN AA are rogues, nor have they been. GOONS opinion on what makes an alliance is not the global standard, and nobody is obliged to follow your opinion as if it were the standard.



I do find it interesting, though, the tendency of the Thug, who always laughs as he pushes around those smaller than himself, to come onto this global stage and cry his tale of woe when an alliance of merely nine members decides to push back in their limited capacity. This knee-jerk reaction to turn on the water works and play the victim is most amusing.

[Biazt]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285531325' post='2465389']
Numerous people have already explained what it means to be a rogue (I'm particularly fond of Cortath's assessment of Rogues vs. Rational State Actors, of which Metherage and crew are the latter). I won't bother repeating them because I don't expect you to grasp the basic concepts, but as long as you keep repeating this garbage, the record has to be set straight.

None of the nine nations now sitting under the KN AA are rogues, nor have they been. GOONS opinion on what makes an alliance is not the global standard, and nobody is obliged to follow your opinion as if it were the standard.



I do find it interesting, though, the tendency of the Thug, who always laughs as he pushes around those smaller than himself, to come onto this global stage and cry his tale of woe when an alliance of merely nine members decides to push back in their limited capacity. This knee-jerk reaction to turn on the water works and play the victim is most amusing.
[/quote]
Nor is anyone obligated to follow your opinion, so what's your point?

[RePePe]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285530970' post='2465381']
This is irrelevant. They were rogues to begin with in this case, not an alliance at first.[/quote]

Would you say that their actions are what make them rogue and that even if there were 40 of them claiming to be under a unified AA, roguery actions are still actions of a rogue?

[Haquertal]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285531325' post='2465389']
I do find it interesting, though, the tendency of the Thug, who always laughs as he pushes around those smaller than himself, to come onto this global stage and cry his tale of woe when an alliance of merely nine members decides to push back in their limited capacity. This knee-jerk reaction to turn on the water works and play the victim is most amusing.
[/quote]

And here's the beautiful part. "I find it "

That's all I needed to know. Thank you kind sir.

I am now withdrawing from this conversation, since it's just rounding around the same exact things repeatedly.

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1285531406' post='2465392']
Would you say that their actions are what make them rogue and that even if there were 40 of them claiming to be under a unified AA, roguery actions are still actions of a rogue?
[/quote]

How many times can you fit "rogue" into one sentence. The fact is, that would be an alliance. KN is [b]not[/b]. Now please, restate the example 40 times and ask me why it doesn't work.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Haquertal

[Bilrow]

Vox was considered rogues at first. Just saying.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285530970' post='2465381']
This is irrelevant. They were rogues to begin with in this case, not an alliance at first.
[/quote]

They may have been rogues by your definition, but not by their own. Therefore your opinion they were rogues is just that--an opinion.

[Choson]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285531325' post='2465389']
None of the nine nations now sitting under the KN AA are rogues, nor have they been. GOONS opinion on what makes an alliance is not the global standard, and nobody is obliged to follow your opinion as if it were the standard.[/quote]
So you're saying that Jim didn't become a rogue by secretly aiding Methrage after we said that would be an act of war? (Remember, he wasn't part of KN until yesterday.)

Or that any of Methrage's past actions were rogue-like?

64Digits' opinion on what makes an alliance is not the global standard, and nobody is obliged to follow your opinion as if it were the standard.

^ See what I did there?

[Haquertal]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1285531619' post='2465399']
They may have been rogues by your definition, but not by their own. Therefore your opinion they were rogues is just that--an opinion.
[/quote]

Woah woah woah woah woah.

So if I join an AA with a fellow goon, and go rogue on another alliance, and tell everyone I'm not a rogue, then I can also avoid sanctions?

That's a pretty sweet deal.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285531398' post='2465391']
Nor is anyone obligated to follow your opinion, so what's your point?
[/quote]I stated what GOONS' opinion was, thus my statement was, in actuality, a fact, an item of truth not subject to the whims of any ruler. Please pay closer attention to the finer details of things. But I suppose that's too much to ask, the majority tends to struggle with concepts such as 'fact' and 'opinion' and the differences between the two.

[RePePe]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285531496' post='2465393']How many times can you fit "rogue" into one sentence. The fact is, that would be an alliance. KN is [b]not[/b]. Now please, restate the example 40 times and ask me why it doesn't work.
[/quote]

You would be well-advised to let your counterparts do the talking. I respect Beefspari for presenting logical arguments; however, you seem unable to do so.

You claim KN is clearly a group of rogues, yet I have presented you with several similar examples, and you dismiss them as actions of an alliance. This leads me to believe your definition is reliant on personal convenience, as you refuse to use small numbers, roguery actions, failing to seek peace, moral crusades, or other criteria to identify a rogue.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285532072' post='2465406']
Woah woah woah woah woah.

So if I join an AA with a fellow goon, and go rogue on another alliance, and tell everyone I'm not a rogue, then I can also avoid sanctions?

That's a pretty sweet deal.
[/quote]
You telling another alliance we're rogues doesn't make it true, its an issue of dispute between our alliances and part of the alliance war. Those who don't support GOONS and aren't allied to them should remove the sanctions. If you and another goon go rogue on someone, then apparently you would be going rogue and it wouldn't be an alliance war unless your still a member of GOONS.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285532347' post='2465412']
You telling another alliance we're rogues doesn't make it true, its an issue of dispute between our alliances and part of the alliance war. Those who don't support GOONS and aren't allied to them should remove the sanctions. If you and another goon go rogue on someone, then apparently you would be going rogue and it wouldn't be an alliance war unless your still a member of GOONS.
[/quote]

I love you. I really do.

And your AA isn't an alliance. Sorry, friend. Sad but true

[Choson]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1285532189' post='2465409']
You would be well-advised to let your counterparts do the talking. I respect Beefspari for presenting logical arguments; however, you seem unable to do so.

You claim KN is clearly a group of rogues, yet I have presented you with several similar examples, and you dismiss them as actions of an alliance. This leads me to believe your definition is reliant on personal convenience, as you refuse to use small numbers, roguery actions, failing to seek peace, moral crusades, or other criteria to identify a rogue.
[/quote]
Maybe you should silence ChairmanHal, since you're trying to tell us who can and can't talk on here. He does your alliance no favors when he posts.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285531792' post='2465401']
So you're saying that Jim didn't become a rogue by secretly aiding Methrage after we said that would be an act of war? (Remember, he wasn't part of KN until yesterday.)

Or that any of Methrage's past actions were rogue-like?

64Digits' opinion on what makes an alliance is not the global standard, and nobody is obliged to follow your opinion as if it were the standard.

^ See what I did there?
[/quote]Whether or not they can be classified as rogue has nothing to do with a numerical headcount on an AA or that they partook in an action which GOONS found undesirable. There has been a concerted effort between all these nations, a concerted effort that requires a degree of rational thought. Thus they are Rational State Actors, and by definition, not rouge.

Again, the definitions have been repeated elsewhere in this thread. And yes, you can say that it's all just my opinion, my 'opinion' of what the 'facts' are, and you can say all perception is a lie and I'm just a brain in a jar subject to a simulated reality, and so on and so forth, but it matters not. What matters is that Red Dawn does not share your arbitrary definition of 'rogue' and they are not obligated by anything or anyone to engage in hostilities with your enemies.

Edited September 26, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Biazt]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285532106' post='2465408']
I stated what GOONS' opinion was, thus my statement was, in actuality, a fact, an item of truth not subject to the whims of any ruler. Please pay closer attention to the finer details of things. But I suppose that's too much to ask, the majority tends to struggle with concepts such as 'fact' and 'opinion' and the differences between the two.
[/quote]
Just about every post in here is an opinion, what is your point? Everyone knows this already. It's common knowledge.

I didn't realize that every post needs to start with "IT IS MY OPINION THAT..." for it not to be assailed by your genius "well that's just like, your opinion man"

Edited September 26, 2010 by Biazt

[Haquertal]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285532587' post='2465419']
Whether or not they can be classified as rouge
[/quote]

They're on red team? I thought even Jim had switched to gray?

E: Actually, 5 are still on red. I guess you could call them rouge, since majority are on red.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Haquertal

[the rebel]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285532072' post='2465406']
Woah woah woah woah woah.

So if I join an AA with a fellow goon, and go rogue on another alliance, and tell everyone I'm not a rogue, then I can also avoid sanctions?

That's a pretty sweet deal.
[/quote]

If you made a charter, made an alliance forum, made a DoE and maybe a irc channel... then yes a majority of alliances would view you as an alliance and not rogues and there for your actions would be an alliance war...

[Haquertal]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285532757' post='2465427']
If you made a charter, made an alliance forum, made a DoE and maybe a irc channel... then yes a majority of alliances would view you as an alliance and not rogues and there for your actions would be an alliance war...
[/quote]

I'll remember this, and use this beautiful defense one day.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285532833' post='2465428']
I'll remember this, and use this beautiful defense one day.
[/quote]

Good for you, even though i doubt you would get anywhere dangerous enough to need the use of sanctions on yourself

[Choson]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1285532587' post='2465419']
Whether or not they can be classified as rouge has nothing to do with a numerical headcount on an AA or that they partook in an action which GOONS found undesirable. There has been a concerted effort between all these nations, a concerted effort that requires a degree of rational thought. Thus they are Rational State Actors, and by definition, not rouge.

Again, the definitions have been repeated elsewhere in this thread. And yes, you can say that it's all just my opinion, my 'opinion' of what the 'facts' are, and you can say all perception is a lie and I'm just a brain in a jar subject to a simulated reality, and so on and so forth, but it matters not. What matters is that Red Dawn does not share your arbitrary definition of 'rogue' and they are not obligated by anything or anyone to engage in hostilities with your enemies.
[/quote]
You didn't answer my two questions. How about you stop tap-dancing around them and answer them?

Re: A concerted effort. Methrage and Jim didn't arrange for him to send the aid to Methrage. He did it on a whim, it wasn't concerted. And as for rational thought, have you seen Methrage's posts?

[RePePe]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285532572' post='2465418']
Maybe you should silence ChairmanHal, since you're trying to tell us who can and can't talk on here. He does your alliance no favors when he posts.
[/quote]

That's alright. I wouldn't expect you to respond to the core of my post, as a typical "You're wrong because I say so" would not bode well for your argument.

I'll let you take a break and then maybe you'll come back into the ring.

[Biazt]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285532757' post='2465427']
If you made a charter, made an alliance forum, made a DoE and maybe a irc channel... then yes a majority of alliances would view you as an alliance and not rogues and there for your actions would be an alliance war...
[/quote]
If the majority of alliances would do as you say, then why is Methrage sanctioned on almost all colors?

[Choson]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1285532945' post='2465431']
That's alright. I wouldn't expect you to respond to the core of my post, as a typical "You're wrong because I say so" would not bode well for your argument.

I'll let you take a break and then maybe you'll come back into the ring.
[/quote]
Consider that I am not Haquertal and you were directly addressing him, therefore, I do not have to respond to the core of your post.

And for the second half of that sentence, the fact that you're trying to argue that we're wrong because you say so... pot, meet kettle.

P.S.- I like how you feel like you can shut up people in other alliances, but you have to act all blustery when someone tells you what to do.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Choson

[the rebel]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285532965' post='2465432']
If the majority of alliances would do as you say, then why is Methrage sanctioned on almost all colors?
[/quote]

You are a connected alliance with friends, so you go to team senates asking which are friends of friends for a favour, i was honestly suprised Uhtred sanctioned him on white because by STA standards he is an alliance. So it must be the friends of friends reason.

[Choson]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285533258' post='2465436']
You are a connected alliance with friends, so you go to team senates asking which are friends of friends for a favour, i was honestly suprised Uhtred sanctioned him on white because by STA standards he is an alliance. So it must be the friends of friends reason.
[/quote]
Instead of hypothesising as to why STA did it, maybe you should let them speak on their own?