Some people take cybernation to seriously?

[Dementual]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1284652225' post='2455811']
Why wouldn't they just call him then? That'd be a hell of a lot more intimidating.
[/quote]
Once people feel unsafe playing CN, they will stop playing CN.

[zenergy]

[quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284636393' post='2455720']
And i see your point that as a business owner you'd like to know. However i believe privacy of the individual is more important.
Religion, Criminal Record, sexual preference and such should all be private matters.

There are situations where a criminal record is important (e.g. to become a law officer, work in money transport etc.), but in those instances the applicant should give prior consent to such background checks.

Anyway to get back to CN, OOC harassment should not occur [i]ever[/i].
[/quote]

Generally people do give consent for a background check when they apply for a job, but it's not required to access public information. Here in the US, criminal records are all in the public domain, partly to act as a deterrent to crime - the logic is that if your mugshot will be plastered all over the web for eternity, then maybe you'll be less likely to do something stupid. It won't deter hardcore criminals, sure, but it might be effective against your average drunk driver.

And yeah, as a business owner, my obligation to ensure a safe and productive workplace trumps [i]some [/i]employee privacy concerns. There's definitely a line to be drawn, though - you can't conduct daily body cavity searches, but making sure your potential employee doesn't have multiple assault, robbery, or rape charges is more important than a criminal's wish to hide their past. After all, if I hire a rapist, and he rapes somebody on the clock, I can be held liable and sued for everything I have.

Also, in the US we have a legal concept called Protected Classes. Things like race, religion, family status, age (if you're over 40), etc., are considered protected classes, and there are steep civil and criminal liabilities for discrimination. Being a criminal, however, is not a protected class, and we're free to discriminate against felons all we want. That's why I make a large chunk of my living helping felons find apartments, because there are so few places that will take them.

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1284641919' post='2455742']
So let me get this straight.

You put the feelings of a criminal above the concerns of business owners?

I'm running a few studies/statistics, who did you vote for in '08?
[/quote]

FTR, I voted for Obama, and I definitely don't think that the needs of the business community are trumped by a criminal's feelings.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1284652225' post='2455811']
Why wouldn't they just call him then? That'd be a hell of a lot more intimidating.
[/quote]

Because it's hard to sound intimidating when your voice hasn't changed yet.

Edited September 16, 2010 by zenergy

[Andre27]

[quote name='zenergy' timestamp='1284665131' post='2455948']
Generally people do give consent for a background check when they apply for a job, but it's not required to access public information. Here in the US, criminal records are all in the public domain, partly to act as a deterrent to crime - the logic is that if your mugshot will be plastered all over the web for eternity, then maybe you'll be less likely to do something stupid. It won't deter hardcore criminals, sure, but it might be effective against your average drunk driver.

And yeah, as a business owner, my obligation to ensure a safe and productive workplace trumps [i]some [/i]employee privacy concerns. There's definitely a line to be drawn, though - you can't conduct daily body cavity searches, but making sure your potential employee doesn't have multiple assault, robbery, or rape charges is more important than a criminal's wish to hide their past. After all, if I hire a rapist, and he rapes somebody on the clock, I can be held liable and sued for everything I have.

Also, in the US we have a legal concept called Protected Classes. Things like race, religion, family status, age (if you're over 40), etc., are considered protected classes, and there are steep civil and criminal liabilities for discrimination. Being a criminal, however, is not a protected class, and we're free to discriminate against felons all we want. That's why I make a large chunk of my living helping felons find apartments, because there are so few places that will take them.



FTR, I voted for Obama, and I definitely don't think that the needs of the business community are trumped by a criminal's feelings.



Because it's hard to sound intimidating when your voice hasn't changed yet.
[/quote]

Good to hear about the Protected Classes, sad to hear that criminal records are not a part of them.
As i understand the idea is to deter criminals, much like a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillory"]Pillory[/url]. However the danger is branding people for the rest of their lives for a mistake.
I'm not saying that people should not take responsibility, but once they've served their sentence they should not be punished further by having records posted on a public place.

Each person should [i]only[/i] be judged on how they do their job, not because of their history.

As for the vote, in the Netherlands i could be considered a conservative by voting for a small Christian party [url="http://www.christenunie.nl/nl/verkiezingsprogramma"]Christenunie[/url].
In the US i would probably have a difficult time deciding between democrats and republicans because both have items which i strongly do not agree with and don't even get me started about the extremes in both sides (one of the better known is the current "Tea Party" )

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284670138' post='2455984']
Good to hear about the Protected Classes, sad to hear that criminal records are not a part of them.
As i understand the idea is to deter criminals, much like a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillory"]Pillory[/url]. However the danger is branding people for the rest of their lives for a mistake.
I'm not saying that people should not take responsibility, but once they've served their sentence they should not be punished further by having records posted on a public place.

Each person should [i]only[/i] be judged on how they do their job, not because of their history.

As for the vote, in the Netherlands i could be considered a conservative by voting for a small Christian party [url="http://www.christenunie.nl/nl/verkiezingsprogramma"]Christenunie[/url].
In the US i would probably have a difficult time deciding between democrats and republicans because both have items which i strongly do not agree with and don't even get me started about the extremes in both sides (one of the better known is the current "Tea Party" )
[/quote]
I just have a few misdemeanors for marijuana so its not that bad compared to if I got arrested for something worse, but in Florida when your arrested they post it on their website along with your mugshot. Even if your arrested for alcohol under 21 or the charges are dropped you can only get your record sealed on one offense maximum and it costs a lot to have lawyer do since they have a lot of paper work involved.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='zenergy' timestamp='1284612588' post='2455541']
I totally see your point. On the other hand, as a business owner, I'd really like to know if the nice guy I'm about to hire has been arrested 8 times for domestic violence, but never caught a charge. Or if my potential new receptionist is out on bail for drugs, but it hasn't gone to trial yet. FTR, medical records are really strongly protected here, and there are some serious consequences for making those public. Being a criminal isn't a protected class, however.
[/quote]
The receptionist case isn't a good example of what you're talking about; if you're out on bail, you've been charged, and that means a court case and those are always a matter of public record everywhere, barring Star Chamber type arrangements.

[quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284636393' post='2455720']
And i see your point that as a business owner you'd like to know. However i believe privacy of the individual is more important.
Religion, Criminal Record, sexual preference and such should all be private matters.
[/quote]
Criminal record isn't private anywhere, Andre. The exception being various young offender type statutes which close the record when the youth hits the a certain age, usually eighteen.

And frankly that's a good thing. If they can charge you without telling anyone, then they can also convict you without telling anyone and lock you up without telling anyone. I've yet to meet the government that I would trust with that kind of power.

In general also, business owners usually place too much importance on the criminal records of potential employees. You have to look at what the charges were. When I was in law school, roughly 5% of my starting class had criminal records that would normally prevent them from being called. Every single one of them got pardons.

And those are [i]lawyers.[/i] Man, if you're hiring a welder, and he has a conviction for getting in a bar fight, just remember that your lawyer may well have had the exact same thing a few years back.

[Ejayrazz]

Even crimes committed under the age of 18 are accessible if you know the right people. Everything is accessible; sorry to hear this has happened Methrage.

[Kill Joy]

Sorry to see this happen Meth. Unfortunately this information is out there and open to the public. Someone reposting personal information isnt illegal when that information is already made public. In under 2 minutes of effort I found quite a bit of Methrage's RL information including street address, phone number, RL name, and arrest records and other sites he is on also. Its pretty easy with a bit of technical knowledge, just costs a few minutes time. In the end, be careful what information you use to register things with. Also be extremely careful how much OOC info you allow to spill over to this realm, such as other sites you run.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Kill Joy' timestamp='1284677000' post='2456067']
Sorry to see this happen Meth. Unfortunately this information is out there and open to the public. Someone reposting personal information isnt illegal when that information is already made public. In under 2 minutes of effort I found quite a bit of Methrage's RL information including street address, phone number, RL name, and arrest records and other sites he is on also. Its pretty easy with a bit of technical knowledge, just costs a few minutes time. In the end, be careful what information you use to register things with. Also be extremely careful how much OOC info you allow to spill over to this realm, such as other sites you run.
[/quote]
I realize the information is out there for those who search for it, but this person gathered it all together in a list and tried spamming a CN related forum in public areas with it.

[Kill Joy]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284677193' post='2456070']
I realize the information is out there for those who search for it, but this person gathered it all together in a list and tried spamming a CN related forum in public areas with it.
[/quote]

Im fairly confident the person responsible gathered the information the same way I did. Which means that this is your fault the information is so available. If you'd like to query me I can go into depth more and help you start fixing the issue. If I try and explain any more here it will only allow others to get your info too.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Kill Joy

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Kill Joy' timestamp='1284677599' post='2456078']
Im fairly confident the person responsible gathered the information the same way I did. Which means that this is your fault the information is so available. If you'd like to query me I can go into depth more and help you start fixing the issue. If I try and explain any more here it will only allow others to get your info too.
[/quote]
I'm mainly concerned with what he tried doing with it rather than he was able to access it. I've never tried very hard to hide my identity online, but spamming my personal information in response to a game is going over board no matter how you look at it.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1284674507' post='2456034']
Criminal record isn't private anywhere, Andre.
[/quote]

Criminal records are most certainly not public everywhere around the globe.
I have friends who work in courts and as lawyers and i was shocked to hear that a persons criminal record is available on the net in some states in the US.

There's a distinct difference between "being charged without telling anyone" and making a persons criminal record publicly available.
To say that making a persons criminal record public is the only way to prevent being charged without telling anyone is like killing a child to prevent it tripping over a rock and bruising its knee.
It is important to have safeguards in place to prevent "being charged without telling anyone" but to do so by making a criminal record public for anyone to see is serious overkill.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Andre27

[Kill Joy]

I'm certainly not condoning his actions, it's certainly despicable behavior. However, if you choose to link your OOC life with your IC life as you have, then you've opened the door to your RL. You cant open the door and then complain its drafty. All you can do is close the door and make sure it's secured shut. Nothing can really be done here about it. You have 0 evidence it was CN related. Simply ban the proxy IP range on your boards and move on, in a positive way.

Edit: spelling

Edited September 16, 2010 by Kill Joy

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Kill Joy' timestamp='1284680243' post='2456115']
I'm certainly not condoning his actions, it's certainly despicable behavior. However, if you choose to link your OOC life with your IC life as you have, then you've opened the door to your RL. You cant open the door and then complain its drafty. All you can do is close the door and make sure it's secured shut. Nothing can really be done here about it. You have 0 evidence it was CN related. Simply ban the proxy IP range on your boards and move on, in a positive way.

Edit: spelling
[/quote]
Facebook is linked with CN now, so I guess everyone's personal data is open to being posted on alliance forums and people shouldn't complain about it.

[Kill Joy]

If people make their personal information viewable to anyone...the responsibility lies with them. Most people are smart enough to choose not to make their entire personal information available to the public. I dont think ive ever seen anyone post their RL phone number, street address etc on facebook, and there is a good reason for that.

In my opinion you should be THANKING the person trying to show you that info, maybe they are trying to do you a secret favor and let you know how close to being identity thefted you really are, because if they wanted to cause serious grief they certainly could.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Kill Joy' timestamp='1284680243' post='2456115']
I'm certainly not condoning his actions, it's certainly despicable behavior. However, if you choose to link your OOC life with your IC life as you have, then you've opened the door to your RL. You cant open the door and then complain its drafty. All you can do is close the door and make sure it's secured shut. Nothing can really be done here about it. You have 0 evidence it was CN related. Simply ban the proxy IP range on your boards and move on, in a positive way.

Edit: spelling
[/quote]

There is absolutely no IC reason to use OOC information to gain an advantage IC, whether someone shares their personal information openly, it is easily stumbled upon, or someone with access to the proper computer resources can run a through background check. Period. The possibility of exposure should not ever be a "hazard of play" forcing people to change their RL in order to avoid exposure.

We're here to play a game. Not reveal someone's HIV status because we don't like them. Not make fun of people for writing fan fiction. Not threaten to reveal details of online affairs to spouses unless certain actions are taken. Not downgrade people because in RL they are deaf, a different religion, a different ethnic ground, or a different sexual orientation. We can tell jokes and have good natured fun, but only if the object of the joke is in on it.

Is common sense civility really too much to ask (not directed at you, Kill Joy, just saying...)?

[Kill Joy]

All im saying is try and see the glass as half full, and how an opportunity has been brought to light that he can fix moving forward. Gain something from this experience.

[Thrash]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1284681998' post='2456138']
We're here to play a game. Not reveal someone's HIV status because we don't like them. Not make fun of people for writing fan fiction. Not threaten to reveal details of online affairs to spouses unless certain actions are taken. Not downgrade people because in RL they are deaf, a different religion, a different ethnic ground, or a different sexual orientation. We can tell jokes and have good natured fun, but only if the object of the joke is in on it.
[/quote]

Well said. The Code of Conduct.

[CRexx]

Whoops

Edited September 17, 2010 by CRex of Gulo Gulo

[RePePe]

Wrong topic? Oh boy...

Edited September 17, 2010 by RePePe

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284680240' post='2456114']
Criminal records are most certainly not public everywhere around the globe.
I have friends who work in courts and as lawyers and i was shocked to hear that a persons criminal record is available on the net in some states in the US.

There's a distinct difference between "being charged without telling anyone" and making a persons criminal record publicly available.
To say that making a persons criminal record public is the only way to prevent being charged without telling anyone is like killing a child to prevent it tripping over a rock and bruising its knee.
It is important to have safeguards in place to prevent "being charged without telling anyone" but to do so by making a criminal record public for anyone to see is serious overkill.
[/quote]
Andre.... Andre.

If the charges are public, then the criminal record ultimately is public as well. Yes, it maybe is a bit more difficult to access than simply doing an Internet search, but - a matter of public record is a matter of public record, and the public has a right to know what goes on in courtrooms.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1284718963' post='2456513']
Andre.... Andre.

If the charges are public, then the criminal record ultimately is public as well. Yes, it maybe is a bit more difficult to access than simply doing an Internet search, but - a matter of public record is a matter of public record, and the public has a right to know what goes on in courtrooms.
[/quote]

Although you are right, I dont think it should be too easy for people to find. Maybe more serious charges, but sometimes silly little things can ruin peoples lives. Hell you can get a charge that will ruin your chances at a job interview and restrict travel outside your country just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Bob Janova]

There's a difference between 'a matter of public record' and 'available to everyone without the target's knowledge'. I'm seeing some significant levels of 'We do it like this in the US so someone telling us it is done differently [i]must be wrong[/i]!' in this thread.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1284724392' post='2456532']
There's a difference between 'a matter of public record' and 'available to everyone without the target's knowledge'. I'm seeing some significant levels of 'We do it like this in the US so someone telling us it is done differently [i]must be wrong[/i]!' in this thread.
[/quote]

You take the words right out of my mouth.

[Sephiroth]

[URL=http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/Methrage/screencensored.png][IMG]http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/Methrage/th_screencensored.png[/IMG][/URL]

Trying to post this list of information (I censored my actual information) that continues to include links to a bunch of my other online profile and information in every topic on the forum is what happened.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Methrage

[Haflinger]

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1284721911' post='2456525']
Although you are right, I dont think it should be too easy for people to find. Maybe more serious charges, but sometimes silly little things can ruin peoples lives. Hell you can get a charge that will ruin your chances at a job interview and restrict travel outside your country just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
[/quote]
Yes, I think I already made that point.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1284674507' post='2456034']In general also, business owners usually place too much importance on the criminal records of potential employees. You have to look at what the charges were.[/quote]
[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1284724392' post='2456532']
There's a difference between 'a matter of public record' and 'available to everyone without the target's knowledge'. I'm seeing some significant levels of 'We do it like this in the US so someone telling us it is done differently [i]must be wrong[/i]!' in this thread.
[/quote]
I do not live in the US. Where I live, people who want to do criminal records searches do have to pay for them rather than just doing searches on the Internet, but the target is not informed.