GOONS owes me $90,000,000

[JT Jag]

Our newbies not knowing the different from up and down deserves the same "large donation" as punishment as an alliance not having enough administrative control over what they define as a "senior adviser" as to keep him from from aiding a nuclear rogue... the second time one of their members has done so in a month.

Yes. I totally agree.

[TehChron]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1284093558' post='2448562']
Our newbies not knowing the different from up and down deserves the same "large donation" as punishment as an alliance not having enough administrative control over what they define as a "senior adviser" as to keep him from from aiding a nuclear rogue... the second time one of their members has done so in a month.[/quote] Doppelganger didn't know he could get caught. Ah, what a blatant newbie he is.

[quote]Yes. I totally agree.
[/quote]
Oh, so you agree with me that the idea that this aid thing being indication of us forming a bad habit is a ridiculous argument? Woulda been nice to see an admission of that beforehand. Oh well, I'm sure it just slipped your mind.

[JT Jag]

Anyway, before you finish that next post I should let you know that this is all sound and fury signifying nothing, lines were drawn 16 pages ago, and no matter what we post from here on out it really don't matter.

edit: drat, you beat me by seconds. My point stands however.

Edited September 10, 2010 by JT Jag

[TehChron]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1284093729' post='2448565']
Anyway, before you finish that next post I should let you know that this is all sound and fury signifying nothing, lines were drawn 16 pages ago, and no matter what we post from here on out it really don't matter.

edit: drat, you beat me by seconds. My point stands however.
[/quote]

It only needs to matter between the involved parties. By contributing to the discussion, we are therefore giving it [i]personal[/i] relevance. By continuing to look into the discussion, we acknowledge that relevance, and by responding to points raised in this discussion, we are further increasing that relevance.

Whether or not something matters is just an issue of perspective.

[mrwuss]

[color=#dc1400]T[/color][color=#dc2800]h[/color][color=#dc3c00]i[/color][color=#dc5000]s[/color] [color=#dc7800]t[/color][color=#dc8c00]h[/color][color=#dca000]r[/color][color=#dcb400]e[/color][color=#dcc800]a[/color][color=#dcdc00]d[/color] [color=#b4dc00]i[/color][color=#a0dc00]s[/color] [color=#78dc00]n[/color][color=#64dc00]o[/color][color=#50dc00]w[/color] [color=#28dc00]a[/color][color=#14dc00]b[/color][color=#00dc00]o[/color][color=#00dc14]u[/color][color=#00dc28]t[/color] [color=#00dc50]h[/color][color=#00dc64]o[/color][color=#00dc78]w[/color] [color=#00dca0]a[/color][color=#00dcb4]m[/color][color=#00dcc8]a[/color][color=#00dcdc]z[/color][color=#00c8dc]i[/color][color=#00b4dc]n[/color][color=#00a0dc]g[/color] [color=#0078dc]r[/color][color=#0064dc]a[/color][color=#0050dc]i[/color][color=#003cdc]n[/color][color=#0028dc]b[/color][color=#0014dc]o[/color][color=#0000dc]w[/color] [color=#2800dc]p[/color][color=#3c00dc]o[/color][color=#5000dc]s[/color][color=#6400dc]t[/color][color=#7800dc]s[/color] [color=#a000dc]a[/color][color=#b400dc]r[/color][color=#c800dc]e[/color] [color=#dc00c8]a[/color][color=#dc00b4]n[/color][color=#dc00a0]d[/color] [color=#dc0078]h[/color][color=#dc0064]o[/color][color=#dc0050]w[/color] [color=#dc0028]t[/color][color=#dc0014]h[/color][color=#dc0000]e[/color][color=#dc1400]y[/color] [color=#dc3c00]a[/color][color=#dc5000]r[/color][color=#dc6400]e[/color] [color=#dc8c00]g[/color][color=#dca000]o[/color][color=#dcb400]i[/color][color=#dcc800]n[/color][color=#dcdc00]g[/color] [color=#b4dc00]t[/color][color=#a0dc00]o[/color] [color=#78dc00]s[/color][color=#64dc00]h[/color][color=#50dc00]a[/color][color=#3cdc00]p[/color][color=#28dc00]e[/color] [color=#00dc00]t[/color][color=#00dc14]h[/color][color=#00dc28]e[/color] [color=#00dc50]f[/color][color=#00dc64]u[/color][color=#00dc78]t[/color][color=#00dc8c]u[/color][color=#00dca0]r[/color][color=#00dcb4]e[/color] [color=#00dcdc]o[/color][color=#00c8dc]f[/color] [color=#00a0dc]t[/color][color=#008cdc]h[/color][color=#0078dc]e[/color] [color=#0050dc]w[/color][color=#003cdc]o[/color][color=#0028dc]r[/color][color=#0014dc]l[/color][color=#0000dc]d[/color] [color=#2800dc]w[/color][color=#3c00dc]e[/color] [color=#6400dc]l[/color][color=#7800dc]i[/color][color=#8c00dc]v[/color][color=#a000dc]e[/color] [color=#c800dc]i[/color][color=#dc00dc]n[/color][color=#dc00c8].[/color]

[Andy P]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1283850124' post='2445095']
Can't expect anyone to hear an argument you don't make. By the way, why is whether or not you're a hypocrite a "private matter"?

Come to think of it, actually, this kind of [i]is[/i] my business. Why was it such a life-and-death situation for my alliance, and conversely, why is it only a minor distraction when you and yours do so? That goes back to your own hypocrisy, which is the point Schatt is making.

Now then, if you're arguing that you don't [i]need[/i] to do something you can do easily, then it's relatively obvious you're just making excuses for the fact you simply can not.

I mean, it's not like the possibility of making a scene has ever stopped your alliance's antics before.

So, back on subject: How are you any different? Are you saying you need to go into private channels in order for us all to get in on this super-secret key to your own honesty? That's funny if you seriously think that's a legitimate dismissal, it's not.

I mean, really, you and your alliance make scenes whenever it pleases you. It's incredible you'd make such a blatantly hypocritical statement.



Your concession to the validity of the points actually made in the OP, rather than your straw mans, is duly noted.
[/quote]
[color="#C0C0C0"]And yet again I need to stand on GOONS' side for fairness sake even though I don't really want to personally.[/color]

Interestingly enought the arguments have already been made by Biazt and Sardonic. Is it their fault none of you reads them?

I'm going to recapitulate from the posts I read up to this post of yours:

[list=1][*]The attack on the protectorate:[list=a][*]It was done by a newbie, less than 40 days old. A mistake, not on purpose.
[*]GOONS had already negotiated that they'll pay reps for that mistake and also tried to send those reps already - it's not their fault when the nation supposed to receive it doesn't log in to accept the aid package.[/list]
[*]The two incidents of "aiding a rogue" by GOONS: [list=a][*]Yet again there are rather fresh nations "at work" here.
[*]The aid in question was both times the 2nd tech package of a 3m-100T deal that had begun earlier - it just so happened that the buyer decided to go rogue between the 1st and 2nd package (or maybe even only after the 2nd). One could say the 2nd package shouldn't have been sent in that case, but honestly: who checks whether your tech deal partner had gone rogue since your last sent tech package? Unless someone had told them that their buyer had gone rogue and they decided to send it anyways, the sellers are completely innocent or at most guilty of being too lazy to do security checks before sending.[/list][/list]
Conclusion: Nothing the OP says holds, GOONS yet again aren't the hypocrites and monsters they are made out to be by their enemies.

Edit: changed formatting

Edited September 10, 2010 by Andy P

[JT Jag]

No, see, listen AndyP, you clearly do not understand. Since this is a PHILOSOPHICAL topic, the details of the cases and the request itself do not matter and

[Mandolus]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1284127386' post='2448814']
No, see, listen AndyP, you clearly do not understand. Since this is a PHILOSOPHICAL topic, the details of the cases and the request itself do not matter and
[/quote]

Seems to me Chron is adopting a position of the letter of the law taking precedence over the spirit of the law. The letter of the law being, any aid ever sent to a rogue regardless of the circumstances is equally bad and deserves equal punishment.

Now I don't know enough about Chron to say if this is consistent for him but I'm sure people will be on the lookout for inconsistencies in this "letter of the law" policy in the future. Lest he be labeled a [i]hypocrite[/i]

[TehChron]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1284141870' post='2448926']
Seems to me Chron is adopting a position of the letter of the law taking precedence over the spirit of the law. The letter of the law being, any aid ever sent to a rogue regardless of the circumstances is equally bad and deserves equal punishment.

Now I don't know enough about Chron to say if this is consistent for him but I'm sure people will be on the lookout for inconsistencies in this "letter of the law" policy in the future. Lest he be labeled a [i]hypocrite[/i]
[/quote]
Oh dear, it seems I'm being misinterpreted.

I am simply saying that since the cited reasoning for demanding high reps from Doppelganger is in order to [i]curb a repeated action[/i], then logically it also follows that in order to [i]achieve the same end[/i] for the reverse, that you would apply that same standard to yourselves.

Of course, if you are interested in doing anything other than straw manning what I'm saying, you're free to look up my previous posts. Arguing about how aiding a rogue is mentioned on my part just about as often as the inherent evils of hypocrisy.

That being said, you're free to prove me a hypocrite at any time. In any place. For any reason. Imagined arguments and straw men don't count.

[quote name='Andy P' timestamp='1284121542' post='2448771']
[color="#C0C0C0"]And yet again I need to stand on GOONS' side for fairness sake even though I don't really want to personally.[/color]

Interestingly enought the arguments have already been made by Biazt and Sardonic. Is it their fault none of you reads them?

I'm going to recapitulate from the posts I read up to this post of yours:

[list=1][*]The attack on the protectorate:[list=a][*]It was done by a newbie, less than 40 days old. A mistake, not on purpose.
[*]GOONS had already negotiated that they'll pay reps for that mistake and also tried to send those reps already - it's not their fault when the nation supposed to receive it doesn't log in to accept the aid package.[/list]
[*]The two incidents of "aiding a rogue" by GOONS: [list=a][*]Yet again there are rather fresh nations "at work" here.
[*]The aid in question was both times the 2nd tech package of a 3m-100T deal that had begun earlier - it just so happened that the buyer decided to go rogue between the 1st and 2nd package (or maybe even only after the 2nd). One could say the 2nd package shouldn't have been sent in that case, but honestly: who checks whether your tech deal partner had gone rogue since your last sent tech package? Unless someone had told them that their buyer had gone rogue and they decided to send it anyways, the sellers are completely innocent or at most guilty of being too lazy to do security checks before sending.[/list][/list]
Conclusion: Nothing the OP says holds, GOONS yet again aren't the hypocrites and monsters they are made out to be by their enemies.

Edit: changed formatting
[/quote]What does any of that have to do with the argument I presented in the quoted portion?

Or were you just simply listing a play by play of their arguments because you thought they were just that good? I can understand if you did, but since I was never arguing about rogue aid itself, then your wall of text there is largely pointless as a rebuttal.

[JT Jag]

So what you're saying is that the deterrent for curbing repeated actions should always be the same?

[TehChron]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1284162701' post='2449236']
So what you're saying is that the deterrent for curbing repeated actions should always be the same?
[/quote]
I'm simply saying that the standards one uses in deterring repeated actions should at least be consistent. I'm not saying you offering 90 million for [i]every[/i] rogue would fit the criteria for consistency, but not lowballing it would have indicated that you take the issue completely seriously. Rather than just milking Doppelganger for his newbie mistake with that $90 million agreement.

Not that there's anything wrong with deciding to press your blatant advantage on a whim. But it simply was what it was.

[JT Jag]

When did we ever lowball anything? The initial bargain between our government and Schattenmann was reached collaberatively (and, in fact, Schattenmann was actually the one to come up with the 1M figure), and Schattenmann never made an attempt in the negotiations to ask for more.

[TehChron]

Could've insisted that it wasn't enough to cover the damages and indicate it'd never happen again. Or whatever.

And besides, if Schatt was the one who came up with the proposal, why didn't you question it? I mean, clearly it was a pittance. You're remorse is worth [i]far[/i] more than that, right?

[JT Jag]

Show me anyone in human history who has offered [i]more[/i] than the offended party asks for and I'll show you someone who will be broke soon.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1284163274' post='2449246']
Rather than just milking Doppelganger for his newbie mistake with that $90 million agreement.

[/quote]

In order to make a newbie mistake you have to be a newbie. Dopp is a big boy and hopefully knows that sending aid to rogues is a no no, I mean he just got rolled for it.

[Nintenderek]

You know, I've been out of the game quite a while, and don't know a whole lot about the situation besides what I read on the first couple of pages. What I do know, is that on the first page, I saw this.

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283820835' post='2444593']
Schatt, do something real about it.
[/quote]

Now, like I said, it's been a while since I've played, but this quote sounds very familiar. In fact, I believe a certain GOONS alliance liked to say it a lot before they got rolled. In fact, I seem to remember several alliances (including, but not limited to the NPO, NpO, and \m/) saying it quite a bit before they were all rolled as well. The fact is, from what I've read, GOONS is out of line on this one. You shouldn't make others do something for something unless you are ready to do the same if you make the same mistake. Just because your a big alliance, doesn't mean you should be able to get away with anything, and one day, you'll say do something about it, and someone will. Hopefully, that ends better for GOONS this time than it did last time.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1284185690' post='2449604']
You know, I've been out of the game quite a while, and don't know a whole lot about the situation besides what I read on the first couple of pages. What I do know, is that on the first page, I saw this.



Now, like I said, it's been a while since I've played, but this quote sounds very familiar. In fact, I believe a certain GOONS alliance liked to say it a lot before they got rolled. In fact, I seem to remember several alliances (including, but not limited to the NPO, NpO, and \m/) saying it quite a bit before they were all rolled as well. The fact is, from what I've read, GOONS is out of line on this one. You shouldn't make others do something for something unless you are ready to do the same if you make the same mistake. Just because your a big alliance, doesn't mean you should be able to get away with anything, and one day, you'll say do something about it, and someone will. Hopefully, that ends better for GOONS this time than it did last time.
[/quote]
Fernando isn't a member of GOONS. Welp.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1284185690' post='2449604']
You know, I've been out of the game quite a while, and don't know a whole lot about the situation besides what I read on the first couple of pages. What I do know, is that on the first page, I saw this.



Now, like I said, it's been a while since I've played, but this quote sounds very familiar. In fact, I believe a certain GOONS alliance liked to say it a lot before they got rolled. In fact, I seem to remember several alliances (including, but not limited to the NPO, NpO, and \m/) saying it quite a bit before they were all rolled as well. The fact is, from what I've read, GOONS is out of line on this one. You shouldn't make others do something for something unless you are ready to do the same if you make the same mistake. Just because your a big alliance, doesn't mean you should be able to get away with anything, and one day, you'll say do something about it, and someone will. Hopefully, that ends better for GOONS this time than it did last time.
[/quote]If you had read the thread, you'd hopefully realize that we didn't make "the same mistake", and that the event in question happened before we "made others do something".

If one of our senior members aids a nuclear rogue and repeatedly lies about it and this happens mere weeks after we had already gotten in trouble for a different senior member aiding a nuclear rogue, please feel free to bring the 90M figure up again.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1284169910' post='2449356']
In order to make a newbie mistake you have to be a newbie. Dopp is a big boy and hopefully knows that sending aid to rogues is a no no, I mean he just got rolled for it.
[/quote]
He thought he wouldn't get caught.

Clearly on the same level of forethought as someone knowingly raiding a protected nation when informed beforehand that there were regulations that the alliance enforced. If being a newbie is defined by making mistakes of ignorance, then by that definition, Doppelganger also made a newbie mistake.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1284191412' post='2449654']
He thought he wouldn't get caught.

Clearly on the same level of forethought as someone knowingly raiding a protected nation when informed beforehand that there were regulations that the alliance enforced. If being a newbie is defined by making mistakes of ignorance, then by that definition, Doppelganger also made a newbie mistake.
[/quote]
The only reason he got caught was telling Fernando, if he didn't tell anyone before sending the aid he wouldn't of got caught. Trusted the wrong person..

Edited September 11, 2010 by Methrage

[TehChron]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284191479' post='2449656']
The only reason he got caught was telling Fernando, if he didn't tell anyone before sending the aid he wouldn't of got caught. Trusted the wrong person..
[/quote]
No, Im pretty sure that GOONS arent so incompetent as to have not been spying you into irrelevance in every possible manner, including finding out how much cash you have. Whether or not Fernando told them, they'd have found out about the secret aid eventually.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1284191665' post='2449657']
No, Im pretty sure that GOONS arent so incompetent as to have not been spying you into irrelevance in every possible manner, including finding out how much cash you have. Whether or not Fernando told them, they'd have found out about the secret aid eventually.
[/quote]
I thought the whole reason they spied Doppelganger was because they didn't have any nations with enough spies to crack Methrage's defences at his level?

[Cobalt]

I too can compare apples and oranges, because they are totally the same because *gasp* [faux-surprise/epiphany]THEY ARE BOTH FRUIT[/faux-surprise/epiphany]

I know we're all supposed to fall along our divisions and mindlessly agree with the point based on who the target of the thread is... really? The complaints in this thread not are not only barely logical, but go against years of precedent as to the relationship between alliance standing and accountability.

I mean really, holding Random-N00b® from GOONS and Dopp from NSO to the same standard of knowledge/accountability/general-planetbob-savior-faire is absurd. Are they both in the wrong? Yes. Should GOONS pay the [b]previously agreed upon reps[/b]? Yes. Is Dopp still an idiot for doing something stupid then being caught in a lie? Yes. Should this thread have ended about 10 pages ago? Yes. Is it absurd that I even have to make this post? Yes. [ooc]Would I continue this rant if my girlfriend wasn't yelling at me to come back to bed? Yes.[/ooc] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1284191665' post='2449657']
No, Im pretty sure that GOONS arent so incompetent as to have not been spying you into irrelevance in every possible manner, including finding out how much cash you have. Whether or not Fernando told them, they'd have found out about the secret aid eventually.
[/quote]
They spied on Doppel because they've been unable to pull off any spy operations on me, all they do is get their spies killed trying.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1284191861' post='2449660']
I thought the whole reason they spied Doppelganger was because they didn't have any nations with enough spies to crack Methrage's defences at his level?
[/quote]
Not my words. GOONS members have been saying themselves that they'd have found out about Dopp's secret aid without Fernando's tip off. Unless you're saying they were lying?

[quote]I too can compare apples and oranges, because they are totally the same because *gasp* [faux-surprise/epiphany]THEY ARE BOTH FRUIT[/faux-surprise/epiphany]
[/quote]Fruits can not be hypocrites, as they are not sentient.

Completely irrelevant.

[quote]I mean really, holding Random-N00b® from GOONS and Dopp from NSO to the same standard of knowledge/accountability/general-planetbob-savior-faire is absurd.[/quote]Who's been arguing that?