In Response to Recent Drama

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281378799' post='2407965']
Facts show Heft and RV had a vague inkling there was a slight problem. Then they went to bed without any of the rest of government knowing about it.

Your evidence is just baseless speculation and random generalization that utterly ignores the context of the situation. Yeah heft aided a rogue. Yeah thats getting us rolled.

But he decided to do that on his own. If Lintwad didn't authorize it directly, it is not an act of the New Sith Order.
[/quote]
Heft is a government member and as such his actions are taken by the rest of the world as the actions of the NSO government. What ever internal rules you have bear no value outside of NSO.
I am going to assume you still have government forums, maybe a wise course of action would have been Heft or RV posting in it that there may be a serious issue brewing prior to night night time.

[TehChron]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281369014' post='2407643']
Friendship. So, would you be inclined to tell me why, in the supposed 6 hour negotiations with RoK or whatever, or even when Hoo said "Aid the rogue and its war" and Heft goes ok, we will, NSO never told us that there was a situation with RoK that could lead to war? Please tell me? We love to switch sides before a beat down? Haven't we been beat down the most? Congratulations to z3 on being a total moron.
[/quote]
Because Heft didnt realize there could be war, and neither did Rebel Virginia. If we don't perceive a threat, we don't really need to report it, do we?

Our mistake. But you guys clearly weren't willing to give us the benefit of the doubt. And you know, not inform us of impending doom at first opportunity.

[Vargarth]

Reading through the many posts it seems to me that alot of you think GATO hate you or dislike you, I beg to differ. There is usually logical reasoning for ones such actions, to escalate this to something bigger than it already is, is not a very logical way to present your opinion about this. I know that many may be upset, but have you ever thought what was going through the minds of the government when going over this? Was it hate, was it to bail on NSO? Neither of these answers seem quite logical upon my known facts of our GATO friends. Some may hate and some may support this move, whether or not you do isn't really the matter here, GATO has already explained fully why they have done this. I ask this to all of you...Why go further into something that has already been finished, why make a problem that was never there?

Alot of the stuff that was said 10 or 15 pages ago is being said over and over again, now you may be wondering what my point is...well, you know I myself do not even know my point, if it makes me look like an idiot I'm fine with that, if it makes me look smart I'm fine with that.

What ever feedback I get from what I say will not be responded too, for I do not wish to argue, I merely want to have my say is what you people would call "politics."

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely, Vargarth

MoR of LoSS.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Vargarth

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281378937' post='2407972']
Are you telling me that NSO's government aimed all along with this policy to start a war?
[/quote]
Actively trying to start a war and accepting that there is risk of war are two different things. Thanks for clarifying for me that GATO leadership was that dense.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281378799' post='2407965']
But he decided to do that on his own. If Lintwad didn't authorize it directly, it is not an act of the New Sith Order.
[/quote]

In the future, may I suggest not allowing anyone other than Lintwad to ever speak to another alliance on subjects such as this again. Perhaps if Heft had simply said 'I must wait for Lint before discussing this' this could have been averted? Heft went to Hoo as a representative of the New Sith Order, and then that government member made the statements that ended up leading it on the path to war. If it was "not an act of the New Sith Order" to ask Hoo to stop the attacks, then why did Heft even start the conversation?

[SoADarthCyfe6]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281378636' post='2407963']
You forget that we didn't tell any of our other allies. Stop making it seem as if we forgot to tell GATO specifically. We didn't tell all of our allies because we didn't think that was on the top of the priority list at the moment. We had two active Sith Lords available and both were working on the RoK issue and both were getting pretty damn tired. Forgive them for not remembering to tell our allies post-haste.

[b]GATO government members are legitimately the only people that have gotten their feelings hurt over this.[/b] The rest of our friends are being just that: friends. They are assisting us wherever they can, and offering us whatever advice they have.

Stop running this stupid line because it's getting worse and worse the more I read it.
[/quote]

Obviously not since ever other alliance that told GATO what had happened knew a war was coming. So you are saying NOT a SINGLE Government Member knew that a possible war was the outcome? I highly doubt that, you guys seem like smart people, and connecting the dots is not that difficult.

If GATO members are the one that are at pain, then why is it that every SINGLE NSO member posting on here is bashing GATO? Usually when you bash someone and you just got over a relationship, it would seem that you were emotionally hurt by it thus your comment is phail.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281378895' post='2407971']
No their government was warned time and time again that NSO had a penchant for doing things that pissed people off and defied accepted norms, and that one of these days the two would combine to get them rolled, so you probably shouldn't stick around waiting for it.
[/quote]
Exactly, GATO knew of these risks for along time, which is why the reasons for this cancellation and this time is utter crap.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281379167' post='2407982']
Actively trying to start a war and accepting that there is risk of war are two different things. Thanks for clarifying for me that GATO leadership was that dense.
[/quote]
Sorry, I don't recall ever pointing out that I'm GATO gov...

[TehChron]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281369748' post='2407670']
You guys knew as soon as saturday night too. Do you know why? because you caused the entire thing. VE was the first to come tell us what happened. [/quote] Heft did, RV tried running interference, they thought it would be settled. Try again.


[quote]Right since that's the only way we supported you guys. We never shielded you from trouble before or anything like that. I didn't get nuked by a rogue just so I could make sure my allies had someone to back them up. [/quote]And we pledged to follow you into a war caused by your own stubbornness, and that of your other allies. You're just making an argument that its even more ridiculous that you would drop us over something so petty, considering what we went through for one another.

[quote]
While I understand what you mean then it would have been "You're just trying to get out of sending them aid" [/quote]Like you did after the BiPolar war, huh?



[quote]You're right Zoom. We thought someone was our friends and they turned out not to be. We were used and stabbed in the back and left in a !@#$%* no win situation. Thanks NSO all hats off to you. [/quote]Yeah, totally stabbed you in the back. Thats why you were asked to defend usohwai-



[quote]Wow now this story changes alot. It's gone from four in the morning and everyone was about to drop out from exhaustion to 12:30 at night and they were all to busy to talk to us. I'm glad we don't rank high on your list of things to cover.
[/quote]RV is not Heft. Therefore his timeline differs.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281379081' post='2407979']
Because Heft didnt realize there could be war, and neither did Rebel Virginia. If we don't perceive a threat, we don't really need to report it, do we?

Our mistake. But you guys clearly weren't willing to give us the benefit of the doubt. And you know, not inform us of impending doom at first opportunity.
[/quote]
Because Heft didn't realize there could be war? Did you see that lone log I kept posting earlier? The One where Hoo said aiding the rogue would be seen as an act of war? Did you think he was joking? Was there a little at the end of his post? How bout a "haha"? No, I didn't think so. Didn't realize there could be war my $@!.

[d3filed]

lol gato

lol NSO

That is all.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281379431' post='2407997']
Because Heft didn't realize there could be war? Did you see that lone log I kept posting earlier? The One where Hoo said aiding the rogue would be seen as an act of war? Did you think he was joking? Was there a little at the end of his post? How bout a "haha"? No, I didn't think so. Didn't realize there could be war my $@!.
[/quote]

Heft was being dumb. He has admitted to this multiple times. He legitimately did not think that this would result in a war. Especially when 95% of the any other situation like this has been resolved through diplomacy. You guys need to get new arguments, because this is getting dumb. I mean even if we did know that war was coming, why did it take until an hour before they attacked for us to order into PM?

Edited August 9, 2010 by Jrenster

[Kubla Khan]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281378945' post='2407973']
Well, considering there was pretty much no government member aware of the situation up until the point we told you, yeah. It would have been impossible.

Thats what we've been saying.
[/quote]

Ok, this is pretty laughable, we all saw the problem at least 2 days ago with the acceptance, then with the RoK quad attack after tensions were clearly escalating, also, judging by the 200 odd people in the public NSO channel the last 2 days, id say that people knew something was afoot.

I like NSO as an alliance and a lot of you guys personally, I respect you more than most other alliances out there, you have adamantium testicles and im sorry it played out this way

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281379260' post='2407988']
Sorry, I don't recall ever pointing out that I'm GATO gov...
[/quote]
well, this is in your sig
[quote]Your Friendly Neighborhood Oncologist and GATO Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs![/quote]

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281379618' post='2408005']
well, this is in your sig
[/quote]
Yea...sucks that I have no power or anything like that. Only people with power are those elected.

[Wabooz]

[quote name='d3filed' timestamp='1281379460' post='2407999']
lol gato

lol NSO

That is all.
[/quote]

You would think that'd be all.. plus some killin'. But not around here eh

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281379722' post='2408009']
Yea...sucks that I have no power or anything like that. Only people with power are those elected.
[/quote]
What? Wait, I have heard that defense before! It's called the "Heft Defense"
You know, the one you won't accept from NSO.

[TehChron]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1281376802' post='2407893']
The bond was never really there after NSO signed up with IRON without telling us. I expected the treaty to die out soon, just not now...
[/quote]
No...it actually was.

We were in the process of negotiating a cross-membership initiative before all this went down.

Implying that we didnt have a bond with you guys is pretty much a lie at best, or ignorance at worst.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Chron

[Emporor]

I have remained quiet on this topic because I didn't want to go and give our plans away, but hell... Its not like all of CN doesn't already know where we stand, by looking at our treaties.

I was the first to inform GATO that NSO was about to get a beat down(I was probably the first to know outside of SF), and I was the first to ask them for their support in the campaign against NSO if we were thrown into this through our treaties(And yes, I am stating that we did/do have intentions of rolling the NSO side of this war if it escalates).. therefore, GATO would not be inclined to help the NSO in anyway due to the fact that obviously as CN knows, protectorates are far more important to most alliances, than some screw up MDP partner.

While I do NOT condone the actions of GATO for the way that this was handled, as I have told many of them in private channels, I will support my ally as I would support any other ally. I do not, see what the big deal is here to begin with. Obviously, GATO would not have gotten involved in this war for NSO even had the treaty not been voided out. To call GATO and/or her allies idiots over this, just shows that you have no idea of what you are talking about. I am sure this post won't change much, as most of you are to idiotic to know when you are wrong and when to shut up, so please carry on with your miserable lives.

That is all.

[Shellhound]

So you knew that NSO was going to war because your other allies told you but you don't go and ask NSO what's going on and wait for them to come to you? Stay classy GATO.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281379835' post='2408014']
What? Wait, I have heard that defense before! It's called the "Heft Defense"
You know, the one you won't accept from NSO.
[/quote]

Meh, we take full responsibility for what Heft did. I mean we're still getting rolled aren't we?

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281379835' post='2408014']
What? Wait, I have heard that defense before! It's called the "Heft Defense"
You know, the one you won't accept from NSO.
[/quote]
Really? And how is that my defense? WHat am I defending? My right to post here? My right to contradict your pathetic arguments?

[magicninja]

This is what I get for taking a break for a day. I read the entire thread and I've seen logs and I've talked to Omni and others about what the hell has gone down here. So I'd like to bring up a few points.

1. NSO didn't ask for help so obviously this move wasn't about saving our @#$%. So, the coward !@#$ can stop now. Thanks.

2. The timing was !@#$@#$ horrific. I wish I had been there to tell our gov exactly what they were asking for posting this now.

3. GATO has come to expect nearly instant notification of trouble. Our other allies routinely let us know of things going bad during the initial talks on someone's $%&@ ups. Even if things don't look that bad we are told as soon as a problem shows itself. Maybe NSO neglecting to tell us until the next day of a problem isn't all that bad. Maybe we are just spoiled by other allies. However, I have to agree that NSO (Heft,RV, whoever was on at the time of Hoos threat)should have said hey Hoo said he may roll us if x. Then we could have said then for $%&@s sake man don't do x. We never got that shot though.

4. I don't think GATO could have done anything for NSO even if they did ask for help after all of this !@#$. Our charter relegates us to a defensive alliance. We CAN NOT intervene if an ally brings war upon themselves as is clearly the case here. Our allies should know this by now. If the attacks were unprovoked we'll ride with you til the end.

5. The idea that GATO has been looking for a reason to get out of this treaty is !@#$@#$ absurd. Sure some weren't happy with it but the majority of our members and gov got along great with NSO. GATO and NSO had actually been working on joint project as of two days ago. I certainly hope this doesn't stop that RV.

6. I can't say I am happy with this decision going down in a day. Since NSO had not requested help (which we probably couldn't give anyway)we had time to talk about this and for that I am disappointed in Omni and congress. The much better response would have been to go along with NSO's wish of not intervening and discussed the communication issue with them later, hopefully still as friends at that point. That would have been my advice to Omni and gov had I been here or had we taken time to discuss this. Unfortunately I never had a chance to voice my opinion.

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281379081' post='2407979']
Because Heft didnt realize there could be war, and neither did Rebel Virginia. If we don't perceive a threat, we don't really need to report it, do we?
[/quote]

Whether or not you felt there was a 'threat', they were certainly aware that there was a 'situation.' Most people worth their salt would usually try to keep their other gov members up to speed on those things, in case the perception of 'threat' does materialize from it.

[TehChron]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281379193' post='2407983']
In the future, may I suggest not allowing anyone other than Lintwad to ever speak to another alliance on subjects such as this again. Perhaps if Heft had simply said 'I must wait for Lint before discussing this' this could have been averted? Heft went to Hoo as a representative of the New Sith Order, and then that government member made the statements that ended up leading it on the path to war. If it was "not an act of the New Sith Order" to ask Hoo to stop the attacks, then why did Heft even start the conversation?
[/quote]
He was on vacation, Heggo would have been the appropriate stand-in. We're not debating the merits of the standards which heft is being applied to by RoK and the other aggressors, but we're pointing out that GATO knew better than to apply that standard to us. Especially when using such terrible justifications.
[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281379431' post='2407997']
Because Heft didn't realize there could be war? Did you see that lone log I kept posting earlier? The One where Hoo said aiding the rogue would be seen as an act of war? Did you think he was joking? Was there a little at the end of his post? How bout a "haha"? No, I didn't think so. Didn't realize there could be war my $@!.
[/quote]
No one's saying Heft wasn't being stupid. We're pretty much all saying that. That doesn't mean that you can say we were bad allies because of one glaringly bad misjudgment on the part of one or two members.

I mean, you accept Heft and RV didnt think there was a threat, then obviously there is no perceived need on their parts to tell you. You're just angrily denying that basic logic.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Chron