Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1282009501' post='2418514']
Your Emperor says otherwise.
[/quote]

I could be wrong, but I think Heft is talking about how we weren't looking for a war.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1282009674' post='2418518']
I could be wrong, but I think Heft is talking about how we weren't looking for a war.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]This is correct. While an error was made in sending aid to Sedrick, it could have been handled differently, neither the NSO nor Heft was ever looking for war. War was the last thing we wanted, and we did try to resolve this peacefully once it came to our attention what had happened. Granted there is one individual out there whom believes that this war was an elaborate ploy by the NSO to split up SF and CnG, but to be fair he and anyone who agrees with him is likely bonkers.[/color]

[Heft]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1282009341' post='2418509']
Dammit. Now I'm gonna hafta read back, I swear I read that you had.
[/quote]
We admitted sending the aid was a mistake.

We never had any intention or desire for war.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1282009674' post='2418518']
I could be wrong, but I think Heft is talking about how we weren't looking for a war.
[/quote]

If that's the case, yes slight misunderstanding.

For clarity; NSO has admitted the aid was a mistake. NSO has not admitted they were looking for a war.

It is my contention that NSO was looking for a war because they sent aid against their own policy to a member who was at war, after having been warned that doing so would lead to war.

When someone says "X would be an act of war" I believe that a conscious choice to preform action X is in effect going and picking a fight.

Edited August 17, 2010 by TypoNinja

[PotFace]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1282009895' post='2418522']
[color="#0000FF"]Granted there is one individual out there whom believes that this war was an elaborate ploy by the NSO to split up SF and CnG, but to be fair he and anyone who agrees with him is likely bonkers.[/color]
[/quote]

Although, I'd like to see how warped that argument would be, for entertainment value. Seems like asking your pals to stay out of this and sitting there getting rolled in a defensive war wouldn't really accomplish much of anything at all.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1282010007' post='2418528']
If that's the case, yes slight misunderstanding.

For clarity; NSO has admitted the aid was a mistake. NSO has not admitted they were looking for a war.

It is my contention that NSO was looking for a war because they sent aid against their own policy to a member who was at war, after having been warned that doing so would lead to war.

When someone says "X would be an act of war" I believe that a conscious choice to preform action X is in effect going and picking a fight.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Or we just made a very stupid mistake and a great miscalculation. Because that is what it is. We never were looking for a war.[/color]

[PotFace]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1282010007' post='2418528']
When someone says "X would be an act of war" I believe that a conscious choice to preform action X is in effect going and picking a fight.
[/quote]

Hey TypoNinja - if you use the letter "x" again, from here on out, I'll consider that an act of war.

See what I just did there? See my point? Meh, probably not.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1282010007' post='2418528']
If that's the case, yes slight misunderstanding.

For clarity; NSO has admitted the aid was a mistake. NSO has not admitted they were looking for a war.

It is my contention that NSO was looking for a war because they sent aid against their own policy to a member who was at war, after having been warned that doing so would lead to war.

When someone says "X would be an act of war" I believe that a conscious choice to preform action X is in effect going and picking a fight.
[/quote]
So would it be fair to say when you made the statement that they were looking for war you don't really care what NSO was really looking for but are merely refering to the end result?

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1282009895' post='2418522']
[color="#0000FF"]This is correct. While an error was made in sending aid to Sedrick, it could have been handled differently, neither the NSO nor Heft was ever looking for war. War was the last thing we wanted, and we did try to resolve this peacefully once it came to our attention what had happened. [/color]
[/quote]

NSO not looking for a war with an SF alliance?

That's rather out of character. What happened to you guys?

[PotFace]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282010662' post='2418539']
NSO not looking for a war with an SF alliance?

That's rather out of character. What happened to you guys?
[/quote]


You're right. If they had wanted war, they should have been the ones to declare. Shame on them !!

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282010662' post='2418539']
NSO not looking for a war with an SF alliance?

That's rather out of character. What happened to you guys?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]We were still rebuilding from the last war, and quite frankly a war with SF would have been suicide. We were not looking for that. Despite this mistake happening, we never did want a war.[/color]

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282010662' post='2418539']
NSO not looking for a war with an SF alliance?

That's rather out of character. What happened to you guys?
[/quote]
RV is really part of the shadow government. Ask your god emperor he might know about dem secret treaties.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1282010995' post='2418543']
[color="#0000FF"]We were still rebuilding from the last war, and quite frankly a war with SF would have been suicide. We were not looking for that. Despite this mistake happening, we never did want a war.[/color]
[/quote]

All the potential damage you would has sustained never stopped you from all your chest beating in the past?

Well I guess I always knew NSO's attitude would change once someone 'did something about it'. It's a pity though, seeing NSO this way.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1282011283' post='2418545']
RV is really part of the shadow government. Ask your god emperor he might know about dem secret treaties.
[/quote]

Not sure who are you referring to, so I'll be sure to ask myself that question next time I get drunk.
I'm sure I'll come up with some good answers.

[Tiberious]

Its always a sad day when diplomacy falls through. Its even a sadder day when diplomacy is thrown out the window. I can see and understand both sides of the war to an extent. To me both sides have valid points. The problem here is there was no chance to come to a peaceful resolution. RoK gave NSO demands, 24 hours later were at war with all the RoK friends to help. This shows to [u]me[/u] that either RoK acted hastily on emotions and took this to violence or Rok felt there was no peaceful way to resolve this matter. Either way I find it truly sad.

If an alliance the size of RoK with the multiple amounts of treaties that RoK has acts completely on emotion its irresponsible, and a shame. With power comes responsibility and acting out of emotions to the magnitude this is is definately not responsible behavior. Knowing your friends will come and help with strong words and half legitimate reasons puts your friends in the same political blunder you have chosen to put yourselves in. Not only does acting out of emotions look bad on you, it affects those close to you.

If RoK truly believed there was no way this could end peacefully through diplomacy than I feel bad for them. Then there FA Department truly needs an overhual or RoKs Government leaders need to rethink the situation. Most conflicts that can't be fixed diplomatically have a build up time of more than 24 hours before coming to a violent conclusion. To come to this conclusion you have to spend more than 1 day discussing the issue at hand. If they truly wanted to avoid war they would have spent some time negotiating or at the very least politely talking the issue over.

Inside this 80+ pages of back and forths I have seen that RoK claims that NSO wanted the war when in reality they admitted to a bad decision but claim over and over and over that they did not want war. I find myself asking why RoK and friends would keep pressing that NSO wants war when its obvious that they did not. The only logical explanation that I can come up with is that maybe RoK wanted the war but does not have enough honor to openly state it. Maybe they were bored seen an opportunity and seized it. Maybe they actually feel justified in this and since others do not they are pulling the old "He started it" method. Maybe I'm wrong all around, maybe not. However to me its clear that NSO did not want war, if they wanted war how come they asked all their allies to stay out of it knowing they were badly outnumbered? Why would they take a beating and keep saying they didn't want the war?

I know what happens next, "Oh no, hes making points that others may read and agree on lets pick it apart". Well go ahead, be my guess. Take bits out for quotes and try to spin it, hell take the whole thing and make of it what you will if your really feeling overzealous. I care not, claim this, claim that, discredit this point, make of that one. Actions speak louder than words.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282011732' post='2418549']
All the potential damage you would has sustained never stopped you from all your chest beating in the past?

Well I guess I always knew NSO's attitude would change once someone 'did something about it'. It's a pity though, seeing NSO this way.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]What? We've been saying this was a mistake from the moment it happened. If we were right we'd have said so. Last war the NSO was right, this time, less so, but we'll survive. We'll live. If you're looking for me to put on a show for you just so you can get some kicks then I'm sorry, but you're going to be disappointed.[/color]

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1282012634' post='2418561']
[color="#0000FF"]What? We've been saying this was a mistake from the moment it happened. If we were right we'd have said so. Last war the NSO was right, this time, less so, but we'll survive. We'll live. If you're looking for me to put on a show for you just so you can get some kicks then I'm sorry, but you're going to be disappointed.[/color]
[/quote]

And that is why NSO is no longer what it used to be. Creating drama and putting on a show used to be your defining qualities. Now your alliance is just a timid shadow of what it strives to be.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1282010007' post='2418528']
It is my contention that NSO was looking for a war because they sent aid against their own policy to a member who was at war, after having been warned that doing so would lead to war.
[/quote]
I think you need some slightly less-reflective headgear.

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JVVaXmiE24g/RuYkNPXfUpI/AAAAAAAAFDg/z5Ac2KBH3_w/s400/____TinFoilHatArea.jpg[/img]

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282012919' post='2418564']
And that is why NSO is no longer what it used to be. Creating drama and putting on a show used to be your defining qualities. Now your alliance is just a timid shadow of what it strives to be.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Oh, now that's rubbish. We had quite a few things planned had this war not gotten in the way. Course they'll be put on hold for awhile.[/color]

[PotFace]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1282012919' post='2418564']
And that is why NSO is no longer what it used to be. Creating drama and putting on a show used to be your defining qualities. Now your alliance is just a timid shadow of what it strives to be.
[/quote]

Pardon my lack of knowledge on this, hence this question, but what exactly would you say are RIA's defining qualities?

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1282010221' post='2418532']
Hey TypoNinja - if you use the letter "x" again, from here on out, I'll consider that an act of war.

See what I just did there? See my point? Meh, probably not.
[/quote]

I see what you are trying to do, but you still aren't very good at it.

The big problem stopping your pity remark from being really clever is that sending aid to a nation at war really is an act of war. Its a standard that everybody agrees on that has stood for many years. I could side track into an explanation about wars by proxy here to explain why, but I don't really see a point, so lets leave it at that.

Your hatred of the letter X on the other hand is just your own little mental mania.

Oh by the way.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1282010248' post='2418533']
So would it be fair to say when you made the statement that they were looking for war you don't really care what NSO was really looking for but are merely refering to the end result?
[/quote]

Well actually I think that the Sith like to push limits and test boundaries and were engaged in just such an exercise with Hoo. I think they just misjudged where the line was and wandered over it by mistake. Still if their actions came from malice or just stupidity they were still actions that could get them a war, and the choices they made have the same consequences regardless.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1282013208' post='2418566']
I think you need some slightly less-reflective headgear.

Snipity huge image of tinfoil hat
[/quote]

Its not tinfoil hattery, they had to break of common wisdom and their own internal rules to come by this "mistake". Their actions were deliberate, it could hardly be otherwise.

[Rampage3]

[quote name='Tiberious' timestamp='1282011832' post='2418551']
Its always a sad day when diplomacy falls through. Its even a sadder day when diplomacy is thrown out the window. I can see and understand both sides of the war to an extent. To me both sides have valid points. The problem here is there was no chance to come to a peaceful resolution. RoK gave NSO demands, 24 hours later were at war with all the RoK friends to help. This shows to [u]me[/u] that either RoK acted hastily on emotions and took this to violence or Rok felt there was no peaceful way to resolve this matter. Either way I find it truly sad.

If an alliance the size of RoK with the multiple amounts of treaties that RoK has acts completely on emotion its irresponsible, and a shame. With power comes responsibility and acting out of emotions to the magnitude this is is definately not responsible behavior. Knowing your friends will come and help with strong words and half legitimate reasons puts your friends in the same political blunder you have chosen to put yourselves in. Not only does acting out of emotions look bad on you, it affects those close to you.

If RoK truly believed there was no way this could end peacefully through diplomacy than I feel bad for them. Then there FA Department truly needs an overhual or RoKs Government leaders need to rethink the situation. Most conflicts that can't be fixed diplomatically have a build up time of more than 24 hours before coming to a violent conclusion. To come to this conclusion you have to spend more than 1 day discussing the issue at hand. If they truly wanted to avoid war they would have spent some time negotiating or at the very least politely talking the issue over.

Inside this 80+ pages of back and forths I have seen that RoK claims that NSO wanted the war when in reality they admitted to a bad decision but claim over and over and over that they did not want war. I find myself asking why RoK and friends would keep pressing that NSO wants war when its obvious that they did not. The only logical explanation that I can come up with is that maybe RoK wanted the war but does not have enough honor to openly state it. Maybe they were bored seen an opportunity and seized it. Maybe they actually feel justified in this and since others do not they are pulling the old "He started it" method. Maybe I'm wrong all around, maybe not. However to me its clear that NSO did not want war, if they wanted war how come they asked all their allies to stay out of it knowing they were badly outnumbered? Why would they take a beating and keep saying they didn't want the war?

I know what happens next, "Oh no, hes making points that others may read and agree on lets pick it apart". Well go ahead, be my guess. Take bits out for quotes and try to spin it, hell take the whole thing and make of it what you will if your really feeling overzealous. I care not, claim this, claim that, discredit this point, make of that one. Actions speak louder than words.
[/quote]


I will agree with you on this one thing: the failure of diplomacy was indeed sad. Imagine my surprise when a rogue that had attacked several TENE nation was brought in by NSO. Instead of simply hitting the rogue, I came to NSO to explain the situation. I expected no issues, especially since every member of the Sith government was familiar to me; indeed, our attempts at diplomacy when we were both tied to Polaris gave me what was apparently a false sense of confidence in being able to easily explain the issue and peacefully resolve the Sedrick situation with Sith gov.

An hour and a half later, when I had been passed around from gov member to gov member and when it was made apparent that Sedrick's claims needed no proof (as an NSO member of course) but our claims would need apparently overwhelming proof (which we had in the war screens, and they still dismissed it), that there would be some issue.

Even then, when Van Hoo went to speak with NSO, I was of the opinion that surely the Sith would work with us. Instead they failed to believe us yet again, to believe Hoo when he CLEARLY explained what he wanted to peace out Sedrick and what would spark war with Ragnarok. At this point, the Sith had several options. They picked the option that GUARANTEED war, which surprised the hell out of me. But in retrospect, I should not have been surprised. They had not believed a thing we'd said all night, this was no different. Perhaps in the future they will believe us.

Once again, I see that certain people are enamored of the idea that we should wait until they are satisfied with our diplomacy attempts before war. I believe that two reasonable people can disagree on the time for war. But in our case, if Hoo tells you that A will get you war and you do A, you will get war. We defended our protectorate, we did what we said we would do at every turn, we were consistent and we were correct in our initial assessment of Sedrick. You say we are warmongers; I disagree. I say that at Ragnarok we do not shy away from war.

[LokiLockpicker]

I'm curious, how long will the rogue that started the sequence of events leading to this war remain in peace mode?

Any update on peace talks? I've said before, I think $24 mil in reps from NSO would be fair.

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]Rampage, you decided on war in less than a few hours. I got in touch with Hoo as soon as I heard what had been done. Had RoK truly been interested in working with us you wouldn't have rushed to war in less than a day.[/color]

[Geoffron X]

I have a question.

I had always thought that when a rogue (or alleged rogue, in this case) was under a different AA, that the alliance who's AA was being hidden under would be contacted [i]before[/i] attacks commenced by the offended alliance. Ragnarok attacked before diplomacy. Is that normal? And if so, how long has it been like that?