Red Raiding Safari

[AirMe]

You know as I stated before, this would have been a non issue if you guys hadn't given it a name and then spread the word among allies.

[flak attack]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' date='20 July 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1279640552' post='2380670']
First: Shilo knew oppression, and so did I. The ODN was functionally blacklisted for years prior to MK being a glimmer in Archon's eye. Perhaps you mean in terms of reparations? Check that too. Threatened with destruction on baseless accusations? Yep, that too. We coped with it by compromising our values and trying to find common ground with NPO to no avail.
[/quote]
I'm afraid that a case of Stockholm isn't our cup of tea. I would rather disband than become Legion.

[quote name='WalkerNinja' date='20 July 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1279640552' post='2380670']
Second: When was the last instance of forced disbandment? GOONS? \m/? That was a long time ago and done to NPO's detriment rather than their benefit courtesy of Electron Sponge.
[/quote]
The FAN war was continued until nearly the end of Karma.

[quote name='WalkerNinja' date='20 July 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1279640552' post='2380670']
Third: Viceroyalties are illegal. The admin has said this. To say that you are good because you're not doing something that you would be banned for doing is no commendation. It's basic survival.
[/quote]
Root admin is illegal. Viceroyalties themselves are not.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='21 July 2010 - 02:20 AM' timestamp='1279642821' post='2380729']If it was a question of sovereignty you'd have been raiding red two years ago.[/quote]
I can only assume that it never occurred to us that our sovereignty was being infringed on in this manner before now. There have been other things happening in CN over the last two years you know!

[jer]

[quote name='lebubu' date='20 July 2010 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1279642233' post='2380713']
On a more general note, MK and many more alliances have been raiding "innocent" nations for years, so using the whole "you're slaughtering bystanders" argument is a bit silly. This is what we do - the fact that this Safari is coordinated between multiple alliances, or that there is an actual political reason behind our campaign doesn't make it better or worse.
[/quote]
Sorry, but it does make it worse. Instead of piecemeal individual nations from your alliance destroying smaller innocent ones for loosely-sanctioned alliance sport, you've stepped it up a notch and organised a co-ordinated hit with your fellow vagrants on those nations, purely because you didn't like the way NPO had worded a new doctrine. So please, save me the lies, because you haven't always been this petty and this pathetic.

The small unprotected nations have gone from mere victims to pawns in the silly game you've decided to play in order to insult the NPO, in lieu of the requisite support or bravery to outright attack them man on man.

[jer]

[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1279642929' post='2380734']
I can only assume that it never occurred to us that our sovereignty was being infringed on in this manner before now. There have been other things happening in CN over the last two years you know!
[/quote]
If the insult to your sovereignty is so grave, why aren't you attacking the NPO? Your current victims are not at fault at all, they're just easy prey for bullies.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='21 July 2010 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1279642937' post='2380735']
Sorry, but it does make it worse. Instead of piecemeal individual nations from your alliance destroying smaller innocent ones for loosely-sanctioned alliance sport, you've stepped it up a notch and organised a co-ordinated hit with your fellow vagrants on those nations, purely because you didn't like the way NPO had worded a new doctrine. So please, save me the lies, because you haven't always been this petty and this pathetic.

The small unprotected nations have gone from mere victims to pawns in the silly game you've decided to play in order to insult the NPO, in lieu of the requisite support or bravery to outright attack them man on man.
[/quote]
welp, the entirety of our plans ripped to shreds in one fell post....

[o-dog]

[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1279642929' post='2380734']
I can only assume that it never occurred to us that our sovereignty was being infringed on in this manner before now. There have been other things happening in CN over the last two years you know!
[/quote]

That is ridiculous.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='20 July 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1279642821' post='2380729']
If it was a question of sovereignty you'd have been raiding red two years ago.
[/quote]
Yes, because they wouldn't have been completely $%&@ed two years ago.

[lebubu]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='20 July 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1279643033' post='2380738']
If the insult to your sovereignty is so grave, why aren't you attacking the NPO? Your current victims are not at fault at all, they're just easy prey for bullies.
[/quote]

Why are you campaigning for NPO's destruction?

[Epiphanus]

I just don't understand all the moralists in the thread saying we are the new hegemony because we are raiding unaligned nations on red... Do you even remember what the old hegemony was? People need to get off their high horses and realize that all this is is raiding with a fancy name. Since when did everyone in TOP, IRON, STA and every other "moralist" out there get their panties in a wad over a tech raid?

[jer]

[quote name='lebubu' date='20 July 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1279643180' post='2380745']
Why are you campaigning for NPO's destruction?
[/quote]
I don't think they'd be destroyed.

[Corinan]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='20 July 2010 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1279641667' post='2380706']
Because I have known MK a long time
[/quote]

Yeah I've known LUE for a long time too and this is exactly the kind of thing they're into. They did this kind of stuff all the time before they rebranded themselves as Mushroom Kingdom. I'm not sure why you or anyone else would be surprised by this.

[Quinoa Rex]

I don't see anything wrong with a survival of the fittest mantra. Spare me your moralism.

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='21 July 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1279624012' post='2380386']
You're being intentionally dumb trying to compare NSs of alliances in isolation of how the treaties would get activated and others would get involved if it comes to that. Or maybe its unintentional of you.
[/quote]
Aside from what Banksy already said, consider how a Mutual [b]Defense[/b] Pact works and what a No-Chaining clause is.

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 July 2010 - 01:10 AM' timestamp='1279627810' post='2380433']
Then why aren't you raiding other colours?
[/quote]
Because it is more entertaining to raid red.

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='21 July 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1279629047' post='2380449']
You're just proving that SG is in the hegemonic position and is happy to use that position for its own selfish ends. Several of you who are now going on about sovereign rights and such nonsense [i]did[/i] have 'no raiding red' rules before Karma, so you're a bunch of hypocrites who like to spout fake libertarianism when it gives you an excuse to bully others while screaming about moralism when someone points out that you are stamping all over the rights of others to make a political point.
[/quote]
(OOC: Learn how to use a full stop. Run-on sentences are a pain)

The rules against raiding red weren't because of any rights unaligned nations had, it was simply because if you did raid red, bad things tended to happen.

Now a question for you, what right are we stamping all over?

[Voytek]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='21 July 2010 - 02:24 AM' timestamp='1279643033' post='2380738']If the insult to your sovereignty is so grave, why aren't you attacking the NPO? Your current victims are not at fault at all, they're just easy prey for bullies.[/quote]
There are other ways of answering an insult than full scale war, you know. If the nations in question don't want to be raided then all they have to do is join an alliance - GDA or TDO are always options for nations that do prefer to do their own thing and they wouldn't have to worry about being raided ever again.

[Corinan]

[quote name='Quinoa Rex' date='20 July 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1279643387' post='2380754']
I don't see anything wrong with a survival of the fittest mantra.
[/quote]

Me neither. Hell, I live by it. I just can't resist pointing out delicious hypocrisy when I see it.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='20 July 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1279640334' post='2380657']The only reason I can see that you'd attack the entire sphere before the NPO is that you do not have the support for war over this.... [/quote]

You know, I think even the NPO would agree that this is unlikely.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='O-Dog' date='20 July 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1279643125' post='2380742']
That is ridiculous.
[/quote]

So is this thread. Have you read it? It's funny.

[Voytek]

[quote name='O-Dog' date='21 July 2010 - 02:25 AM' timestamp='1279643125' post='2380742']That is ridiculous.[/quote]
That's just like, your opinion, man.

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='21 July 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1279643240' post='2380747']
I don't think they'd be destroyed.
[/quote]
This post is adorable. I just want to give it a great big hug.

[quote name='Corinan' date='21 July 2010 - 02:31 AM' timestamp='1279643501' post='2380758']I just can't resist pointing out delicious hypocrisy when I see it.[/quote]
Cheers for admitting to having no interest in this thread beyond scoring cheap shots I guess?

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='WalkerNinja' date='20 July 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1279640552' post='2380670']
When was the last instance of forced disbandment? GOONS? \m/? [/quote]

Norden Verein. And yes, the NPO was involved (even if they merely 'withdrew their protection') so presumably it was to their benefit.

Realpolitik and all that.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Corinan' date='20 July 2010 - 11:27 AM' timestamp='1279643242' post='2380748']
Yeah I've known LUE for a long time too and this is exactly the kind of thing they're into. They did this kind of stuff all the time before they rebranded themselves as Mushroom Kingdom. I'm not sure why you or anyone else would be surprised by this.
[/quote]
Quite the comedian!

[flak attack]

[quote name='Corinan' date='20 July 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1279643242' post='2380748']
Yeah I've known LUE for a long time too and this is exactly the kind of thing they're into. They did this kind of stuff all the time before they rebranded themselves as Mushroom Kingdom. I'm not sure why you or anyone else would be surprised by this.
[/quote]
You are aware that, as of our last count, we have more former NPO and former GPA members than former LUE members, right?

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' date='20 July 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1279643412' post='2380755']
The rules against raiding red weren't because of any rights unaligned nations had, it was simply because if you did raid red, bad things tended to happen.[/quote]
And now you think you have the power to safely attack them to make a point, but presumably don't think you have the power just to attack NPO, you think it's fine. This is precisely 'might makes right', something which you complained bitterly about when it was applied to keeping you down.

[quote]Now a question for you, what right are we stamping all over?[/quote]
That would be the right not to get attacked for something that somebody else did, one that you were particularly keen to point out was being violated in NoCB. And the right not to get attacked if you don't do anything to deserve it.

[quote]I don't see anything wrong with a survival of the fittest mantra. Spare me your moralism.[/quote]
You should have said this when you were relying on moralists to help you overthrow the 'evil' amoral hegemony ...

[Corinan]

[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1279643626' post='2380763']
Cheers for admitting to having no interest in this thread beyond scoring cheap shots I guess?
[/quote]

Ha, yes because LUE is above such things, right?

[jer]

[quote name='Voytek' date='20 July 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1279643424' post='2380756']
There are other ways of answering an insult than full scale war, you know. If the nations in question don't want to be raided then all they have to do is join an alliance - GDA or TDO are always options for nations that do prefer to do their own thing and they wouldn't have to worry about being raided ever again.
[/quote]
For one who screams about violations to his own sovereignty you're rather quick to trample all over other people's. Let me ask you this: why is your sovereignty as an alliance worth more than the sovereignty of thousands of individual nations?

Do not attempt to dismiss me as a silly moralist either, like others are doing. I know I have morals, I'm proud of them, and I'm happy to share them with you rampant brutes in the hope of some form of enlightenment.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Aimee Mann