Which alliances are the most likely to start the next big war?

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='15 July 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1279225606' post='2373372']
All the more reason for the other side to buck up and start planning the next war, [u]like I said.[/u]
[/quote]

Then you mighht want to re-read what I said because that's not it. I said people will start to buck up but that no one will do anything to unplease SG because there's virtually no chance of winning.


[quote]You're not sure what my problem is with people insulting my alliance? Gee, that's a mellon scratcher right there...[/quote]

The head scratcher here is your lack of understanding that regardless of how much your argue you won't change people's perspective on your alliance to anything other than worse unless you do something about it. The head scratcher here is that you seem to think that showing yourself offended will make people stop. Again it's a sign of weakness, and again it will only make it worse.

[quote]I know perfectly well why Sparta is being targeted, and it's not because we're the weakest link, it's because we're the strongest link. Sparta has a huge number of MDP+ treaties spread between SF and C&G; GoD, RIA, and FARK on the one side, ODN, Athens, and FoB on the other. Sure, both those blocs have plenty of other relations to one another, but Sparta is a big part of the C&G-SF community, and the biggest common link between the two. Discredit Sparta enough to SF and C&G, get them believing the ridiculous crap about us being traitors and backstabbers, people unworthy of friendship, and you may just break Sparta off of both blocs. Break Sparta off, and not only does the SuperGrievances community lose one of it's heavy hitters, it also loses the strongest link between them, and then you may just have a chance to separate them; divide and conquer.

It may be a long shot, but given the situation, I'm sure our opponents believe it's a plan worth trying. Are they succeeding? Only time will tell.[/quote]

The strongest link?

I don't dispute the number of MDPs you have, may they be of good use to you. NPO also had many and look how good they did - well you had something to do with it. You seem to be under the impression that you'll be getting reduced physically due to concerted PR action by the OWF. It's the other way around. You get concerted PR action because you're considered to be reduced physically.

You may deny it, and keep telling yourself that it is because [i]you're awesome[/i]. But it might hurt a bit when the truth hits you like a bus.

[Proximo]

Hmmmmmmm Pretty sure exhegemony is too weak at the moment to start a war... This relationship between C&G and Superfriends will probably end up like the Continuum and BLEU relationship. It is CN after all.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='15 July 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1279227530' post='2373451']
Then you mighht want to re-read what I said because that's not it. I said people will start to buck up but that no one will do anything to unplease SG because there's virtually no chance of winning.[/quote]

I read what you said, and your conclusion was that, without conflict, CN would stagnate. Since C&G is unlikely to make much of it, it's up to those who have been historically the aggressors to make another wild slash at taking down the Superbloc. So they can either get planning, or watch CN suffer the longest peace-spell in it's history. Period.

[quote]
The head scratcher here is your lack of understanding that regardless of how much your argue you won't change people's perspective on your alliance to anything other than worse unless you do something about it. The head scratcher here is that you seem to think that showing yourself offended will make people stop. Again it's a sign of weakness, and again it will only make it worse.[/quote]

Nah, I'm pretty sure it's you that doesn't understand here. If you think I think arguing with our enemies will change their minds, you're mistaken. I'm not arguing for the sake of convincing them, I'm arguing because it has to be done to show the rest of those out there that there IS another side to the story, and that these "Sparta is horse!@#$" slogans are, frankly, complete works of fiction. Obviously you're going to object and interpret anything I do or say in a way that suggests I and my alliance are weak, and I don't care, you've already made up your mind that Sparta is a poor alliance. I'm responding for the sake of the other X thousand players who haven't decided. It's my duty to check each negative assertion with a rebuttle. What you think of me and my policies, or the way I deal with the situation, is completely irrelevant. I'm obligated to counter regardless of weather it will change your mind or not. After all, if I didn't you'd just interpret that as a sign of weakness or a concession anyway. So no, you're the one that doesn't get it.


[quote]
The strongest link?

I don't dispute the number of MDPs you have, may they be of good use to you. NPO also had many and look how good they did - well you had something to do with it. You seem to be under the impression that you'll be getting reduced physically due to concerted PR action by the OWF. It's the other way around. You get concerted PR action because you're considered to be reduced physically.

You may deny it, and keep telling yourself that it is because [i]you're awesome[/i]. But it might hurt a bit when the truth hits you like a bus.
[/quote]

I didn't say anything about being reduced 'physically' (which, by the way, doesn't apply in this game). I'm talking about Sparta losing allies if this overwhelming negative PR campaign goes unchecked and begins to convince people we really are a bad alliance. Besides which, your point is moot; Sparta is the #5 alliance in CN, it's clear to anyone with half a brain that an alliance at 9.4 million strength with 27.5k average strength is, in no way, weak. We're one of the strongest alliances in CN (at the very lest Stats-wise), and will continue to be in the conceivable future, so the idea that people could be concluding we're a weak alliance from the stats is absolutely ludicrous, and you need to check your facts. The only way in which Sparta is actually STRONGER than it is "physically", is in it's alliances. Sparta is rock solid, the number of alliance we can call to help in a sticky situation is overwhelming. The only way anyone could weaken Sparta is by damaging her relations with her allies and breaking her treaties, and that's precisely what they're doing; creating these works of fiction attempting to illustrate that Sparta are a bad alliance to be associated with.

It's the oldest play in the book: Isolate your target diplomatically, overwhelm it by massive force, and then continue your campaign of divide and conquer. There is no lack of alliances or players that would like to see Sparta reduced to ashes for a plethora of reasons, both personal and political, and this is just the most obvious (and really the only way available) to go about it.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[ktarthan]

I'm not very good at predictions... but I really hope it will be my fault.

Edited July 15, 2010 by ktarthan

[Proximo]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='15 July 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1279229420' post='2373523']
I read what you said, and your conclusion was that, without conflict, CN would stagnate. Since C&G is unlikely to make much of it, it's up to those who have been historically the aggressors to make another wild slash at taking down the Superbloc. So they can either get planning, or watch CN suffer the longest peace-spell in it's history. Period.

[/quote]

No bloc lasts... Why even try to lie?

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Proximo' date='15 July 2010 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1279231682' post='2373588']
No bloc lasts... Why even try to lie?
[/quote]
I never said they did.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='15 July 2010 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1279229420' post='2373523']
I read what you said, and your conclusion was that, without conflict, CN would stagnate. Since C&G is unlikely to make much of it, it's up to those who have been historically the aggressors to make another wild slash at taking down the Superbloc. So they can either get planning, or watch CN suffer the longest peace-spell in it's history. Period.
[/quote]
I welcome this new era of Stat Collecting.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='15 July 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1279232128' post='2373600']
I welcome this new era of Stat Collecting.
[/quote]

Here, here!

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='15 July 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1279229420' post='2373523']
I read what you said, and your conclusion was that, without conflict, CN would stagnate. Since C&G is unlikely to make much of it, it's up to those who have been historically the aggressors to make another wild slash at taking down the Superbloc. So they can either get planning, or watch CN suffer the longest peace-spell in it's history. Period.[/quote]

Let me see if I understand what you're saying... Ex-Hegemony can either start a suicide war against SG for no other reason than them having being the aggressors in wars so far or simply watch the game stagnate because SG will do nothing and just sit there?

So if ex-Hegemony attacks it's their fault because they are aggressors, they are put through reparations like the ones Sparta imposed on TOOL, if they don't and the game stagnates it's their fault because they are too afraid to do anything?

I don't think I have ever read anything this dumb before and the OWF is rich on dumb things.


[quote]Nah, I'm pretty sure it's you that doesn't understand here. If you think I think arguing with our enemies will change their minds, you're mistaken. I'm not arguing for the sake of convincing them, I'm arguing because it has to be done to show the rest of those out there that there IS another side to the story, and that these "Sparta is horse!@#$" slogans are, frankly, complete works of fiction. Obviously you're going to object and interpret anything I do or say in a way that suggests I and my alliance are weak, and I don't care, you've already made up your mind that Sparta is a poor alliance. I'm responding for the sake of the other X thousand players who haven't decided. It's my duty to check each negative assertion with a rebuttle. What you think of me and my policies, or the way I deal with the situation, is completely irrelevant. I'm obligated to counter regardless of weather it will change your mind or not. After all, if I didn't you'd just interpret that as a sign of weakness or a concession anyway. So no, you're the one that doesn't get it.[/quote]

In honesty, the only opinion I have of Sparta is not a great one, it's based on the way you backstabbed NPO in Karma. And that's it.

That said, there's no two sides of the story here. People say you suck because you can't fight decently in war. You say you're awesome because you won it. I mean, the qualitative analysis, if you can call it that, is not even based on the same parameters, you're not disputing what they say and frankly they are not disputing you won the war.



[quote]I didn't say anything about being reduced 'physically' (which, by the way, doesn't apply in this game). I'm talking about Sparta losing allies if this overwhelming negative PR campaign goes unchecked and begins to convince people we really are a bad alliance. Besides which, your point is moot; Sparta is the #5 alliance in CN, it's clear to anyone with half a brain that an alliance at 9.4 million strength with 27.5k average strength is, in no way, weak. We're one of the strongest alliances in CN (at the very lest Stats-wise), and will continue to be in the conceivable future, so the idea that people could be concluding we're a weak alliance from the stats is absolutely ludicrous, and you need to check your facts. The only way in which Sparta is actually STRONGER than it is "physically", is in it's alliances. Sparta is rock solid, the number of alliance we can call to help in a sticky situation is overwhelming. The only way anyone could weaken Sparta is by damaging her relations with her allies and breaking her treaties, and that's precisely what they're doing; creating these works of fiction attempting to illustrate that Sparta are a bad alliance to be associated with.

It's the oldest play in the book: Isolate your target diplomatically, overwhelm it by massive force, and then continue your campaign of divide and conquer. There is no lack of alliances or players that would like to see Sparta reduced to ashes for a plethora of reasons, both personal and political, and this is just the most obvious (and really the only way available) to go about it.[/quote]

Sparta losing allies because of a negative PR campaingn... Have you considered that demonstrating quality is actually better than saying you're good because you won a war?

However, what you said just enforces what everyone says of you. You have the numbers, you're a fantastic meatshield for other alliances to use. Congratulations. You're considered weak because you cannot produce as much damage as your large numbers suggest. White elephant concept. You're big and nice, but people see you as incompetent at managing the resources.

Anyway, you have so many treaties that trying to cancel them via PR on OWF is simply idiotic and a pure waste of time. Though considering your first paragraph I am starting to feel a pattern on your judgement...

[Alterego]

[quote name='lebubu' date='15 July 2010 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1279214147' post='2373095']
It's BAPS. The CB is you.
[/quote]
In that case i'll join MK and the DoW will be on you

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='15 July 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1279232947' post='2373627']
Let me see if I understand what you're saying... Ex-Hegemony can either start a suicide war against SG for no other reason than them having being the aggressors in wars so far or simply watch the game stagnate because SG will do nothing and just sit there?

So if ex-Hegemony attacks it's their fault because they are aggressors, they are put through reparations like the ones Sparta imposed on TOOL, if they don't and the game stagnates it's their fault because they are too afraid to do anything?

I don't think I have ever read anything this dumb before and the OWF is rich on dumb things.[/quote]

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It's Darwinism. C&G-SF have found that sticking together and waiting for the enemy to make the first move means they're more likely to win, which is true, the aggressor is at a disadvantage simply because of how treaties work. Now the so called "Ex Heg" alliances are smart cookies, they can come up with a way to balance the terms of the next engagement, and they'll undoubtedly try again, and eventually C&G and SF will break, and there will be a new interregnum in CN, and another group will take it's place. This is how CN works.

Your failure to understand the most basic trends in Cybernations is, frankly, astounding.

[quote]In honesty, the only opinion I have of Sparta is not a great one, it's based on the way you backstabbed NPO in Karma. And that's it.

That said, there's no two sides of the story here. People say you suck because you can't fight decently in war. You say you're awesome because you won it. I mean, the qualitative analysis, if you can call it that, is not even based on the same parameters, you're not disputing what they say and frankly they are not disputing you won the war.[/quote]

Ok so we've established you're biased against Sparta. That's pretty much going to invalidate your attempt to present "Sparta Sucks" as objective truth. I also like the fact that you cited the so called "NPO Backstab" as the reason you hate Sparta, when that, it's self, is a hugely biased interpretation of what happened. I can pretty much write off everything you say as the ravings of a rabid anti-Spartan, it's clear you're not objective here.

[quote]Sparta losing allies because of a negative PR campaingn... Have you considered that demonstrating quality is actually better than saying you're good because you won a war?

However, what you said just enforces what everyone says of you. You have the numbers, you're a fantastic meatshield for other alliances to use. Congratulations. You're considered weak because you cannot produce as much damage as your large numbers suggest. White elephant concept. You're big and nice, but people see you as incompetent at managing the resources.

Anyway, you have so many treaties that trying to cancel them via PR on OWF is simply idiotic and a pure waste of time. Though considering your first paragraph I am starting to feel a pattern on your judgement...
[/quote]

...it apparently didn't occur to you that winning the war WAS a demonstration of Sparta's quality. But, being the rabid anti-Spartan that you are, you'll ignore anything that will invalidate your message that Sparta is useless. I also appreciate the fact that you make claims that We can't deal damage proportionate to our size, and the fail completely to back it up with evidence. That just makes my job of invalidating your argument that much easier.

And don't call Ex-Heg idiots for trying to break our treaties via PR, they're putting up a noble effort, and they don't deserve that kind of put-down.

I salute you, my stalwart enemies, may your fangs be ever-sharp and your wit--hopefull--just a grade below mine. You keep us on our toes. [img]http://www.cnsparta.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/army_jungle_yessir.gif[/img]

[Banksy]

[quote name='Alterego' date='16 July 2010 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1279233092' post='2373631']
In that case i'll join MK and the DoW will be on you
[/quote]Oh, I don't think they'll let you in.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='15 July 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1279233825' post='2373645']
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It's Darwinism. C&G-SF have found that sticking together and waiting for the enemy to make the first move means they're more likely to win, which is true, the aggressor is at a disadvantage simply because of how treaties work. Now the so called "Ex Heg" alliances are smart cookies, they can come up with a way to balance the terms of the next engagement, and they'll undoubtedly try again, and eventually C&G and SF will break, and there will be a new interregnum in CN, and another group will take it's place. This is how CN works.

Your failure to understand the most basic trends in Cybernations is, frankly, astounding. [/quote]

I almost wrote a relatively intelligent reply to this part, but then I figured a simple "lol" is much better fit.



[quote]Ok so we've established you're biased against Sparta. That's pretty much going to invalidate your attempt to present "Sparta Sucks" as objective truth. I also like the fact that you cited the so called "NPO Backstab" as the reason you hate Sparta, when that, it's self, is a hugely biased interpretation of what happened. I can pretty much write off everything you say as the ravings of a rabid anti-Spartan, it's clear you're not objective here.[/quote]

I don't hate Sparta, I don't care about Sparta. My only opinion of Sparta is regarding their treaties and it only affects my FA views on treaty fulfilment, as in, I wouldn't like to see my alliance treatied to Sparta because they have proven to be unreliable. Now, I don't think I have much to worry about anyway, because hopefully you don't want a treaty with TFD either

That said no, I am relatively distant from Sparta, never fought them, they never harmed me. I don't think we ever interacted even. So I can consider myself decently objective, so no, you cannot write off anything I say based on ad hominem fallacies. It was a good try to use bad arguments though.


[quote]...it apparently didn't occur to you that winning the war WAS a demonstration of Sparta's quality. But, being the rabid anti-Spartan that you are, you'll ignore anything that will invalidate your message that Sparta is useless. I also appreciate the fact that you make claims that We can't deal damage proportionate to our size, and the fail completely to back it up with evidence. That just makes my job of invalidating your argument that much easier.

And don't call Ex-Heg idiots for trying to break our treaties via PR, they're putting up a noble effort, and they don't deserve that kind of put-down.

I salute you, my stalwart enemies, may your fangs be ever-sharp and your wit--hopefull--just a grade below mine. You keep us on our toes. [img]http://www.cnsparta.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/army_jungle_yessir.gif[/img][/quote]

I am not a rabid anti-spartan, as said before, if anyone who has something they dislike on Sparta is a rabid anti-Spartan you're sadly alone against the world.

Winning a war does not prove someone's quality. Bleeding NS and serving as meatshield as other alliances recover does not prove someone's quality. It proves you're willing to die for something, and that's good, but that's how far it goes.

As for the claims you said I made, I'll offer you some reading classes anytime you want, because as you should be able to read, I didn't make them. But you're probably too proud to admit that:

[quote]However, what you said just enforces what everyone says of you. You have the numbers, you're a fantastic meatshield for other alliances to use. Congratulations. You're considered weak because you cannot produce as much damage as your large numbers suggest. White elephant concept. You're big and nice, but people see you as incompetent at managing the resources.
[/quote]

Please tell me where, in this paragraph, I expressed my opinion of your innefectiveness... no wait, I'll spare you the work and tell you I only commented on what other people said

[Alterego]

[quote name='Banksy' date='15 July 2010 - 11:46 PM' timestamp='1279233976' post='2373653']
Oh, I don't think they'll let you in.
[/quote]
Not even if I make a MK sig and wear it for 6 months?

Edited July 15, 2010 by Alterego

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='Alterego' date='15 July 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1279233092' post='2373631']
In that case i'll join MK and the DoW will be on you
[/quote]


This made me chuckle.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='15 July 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1279235473' post='2373696']
I almost wrote a relatively intelligent reply to this part, but then I figured a simple "lol" is much better fit.
[/quote]

Fine, my point stands then.

[quote]I don't hate Sparta, I don't care about Sparta. My only opinion of Sparta is regarding their treaties and it only affects my FA views on treaty fulfilment, as in, I wouldn't like to see my alliance treatied to Sparta because they have proven to be unreliable. Now, I don't think I have much to worry about anyway, because hopefully you don't want a treaty with TFD either

That said no, I am relatively distant from Sparta, never fought them, they never harmed me. I don't think we ever interacted even. So I can consider myself decently objective, so no, you cannot write off anything I say based on ad hominem fallacies. It was a good try to use bad arguments though.[/quote]

You already expressed your opinion that Sparta is a poor alliance, hell you didn't even have to, the fact they you're trying to prove we suck is evidence of that. I wouldn't say you were objective in the slightest, otherwise you'd be more receptive to both arguments for and against, in stead of only accepting arguments against. Your pig headed refusal to accept facts supporting my points, and your refusal to provide any to support yours is just icing on the cake. Just remember that the worst kind of argument is a baseless one, and you've provided no basis for your arguments thus far aside from re-stating your thesis repeatedly as if it magically makes it true. You're one to talk about bad arguments.

[quote]I am not a rabid anti-spartan, as said before, if anyone who has something they dislike on Sparta is a rabid anti-Spartan you're sadly alone against the world. [/quote]

That's not even a cogent sentence.

[quote]
Winning a war does not prove someone's quality. Bleeding NS and serving as meatshield, as other alliances recover does not prove someone's quality. It proves you're willing to die for something, and that's good, but that's how far it goes.

As for the claims you said I made, I'll offer you some reading classes anytime you want, because as you should be able to read, I didn't make them. But you're probably too proud to admit that:

Please tell me where, in this paragraph, I expressed my opinion of your innefectiveness... no wait, I'll spare you the work and tell you I only commented on what other people said [/quote]

Oh I see, so you think making reference to other people's arguments, and then backing only one side of that argument, not giving fair weight to the opposite side DOESN'T constitute expressing an opinion. Or that you can't be held accountable for the implications of the arguments you're supporting if you haven't explicitly stated it's definitively your judgment. Well I've got news for you, you're not fooling anyone in to thinking you're objective and that you haven't passed judgment already just because you've avoided saying it.

If actions speak louder than words, you are, indeed, a rabid anti-Spartan, and there's no way you're going to argue yourself out of that one, or in to making anyone believe that you're objective. The fact that you only argue one side of this argument, and consistently refuse to concede the validity of any pro-spartan opinion is proof enough. You're party to the crime, and that's enough for a conviction.

[ShadowDragon]

[quote name='Proximo' date='15 July 2010 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1279231682' post='2373588']
No bloc lasts... Why even try to lie?
[/quote]



Not really entirely related to the topic at hand but your right that most don't. SF is turning 3 years old in a little over a month though which is probably older then most of the alliances currently in this game and we've also never had an alliance leave (only have one ex-signatory who merged into another signatory) so we've done a lot better then most in maintaining our friendship over the years. >_>

Edited July 16, 2010 by ShadowDragon

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='15 July 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1279233825' post='2373645']

Your failure to understand the most basic trends in Cybernations is, frankly, astounding.

[/quote]

Your failure to resist using personal attacks on someone who is well equipped by experience to judge the events in motion simply because you don't care for their opinion of your alliance is not astounding, but it is disappointing- considering your position. I would expect the "King of Sparta" to conduct themselves with more class. It's fine to have a disagreement, I would hope that you would take care to promote your alliance and defend it, but insults are a poor show.

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='15 July 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1279233825' post='2373645']

snip

[/quote]

You are barking up the wrong tree, Olaf. Seriously. I understand you might be hypersensitive to criticism right now, since you have so many propagandists lining up their shots at you, but the accusations in your reply are way off base. Neither Lusitan, as far as I know, nor most of the members of TFD have any care one way or the other about Sparta. It's generally a good tactic to not look ridiculous by over-reacting. Taking someone's expression of disagreement of your own estimate of your alliance's abilities in stride garners more respect than accusing some one of being rabid anti-Spartans.

Frankly, if you really feel that you have won the recent wars, let me gently remind you that grace in victory secures your position while rubbing it in others faces only precipitates your downfall. Your best bet is to know who your real enemies are and not manufacture any out of those who are neutral by insulting them or displaying acts of arrogance.

Anyway, good luck in fighting off the hordes of anti-Spartans attempting to break you through false PR.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' date='15 July 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1279242728' post='2373861']
Your failure to resist using personal attacks on someone who is well equipped by experience to judge the events in motion simply because you don't care for their opinion of your alliance is not astounding, but it is disappointing- considering your position. I would expect the "King of Sparta" to conduct themselves with more class. It's fine to have a disagreement, I would hope that you would take care to promote your alliance and defend it, but insults are a poor show.



You are barking up the wrong tree, Olaf. Seriously. I understand you might be hypersensitive to criticism right now, since you have so many propagandists lining up their shots at you, but the accusations in your reply are way off base. Neither Lusitan, as far as I know, nor most of the members of TFD have any care one way or the other about Sparta. It's generally a good tactic to not look ridiculous by over-reacting. Taking someone's expression of disagreement of your own estimate of your alliance's abilities in stride garners more respect than accusing some one of being rabid anti-Spartans.

Frankly, if you really feel that you have won the recent wars, let me gently remind you that grace in victory secures your position while rubbing it in others faces only precipitates your downfall. Your best bet is to know who your real enemies are and not manufacture any out of those who are neutral by insulting them or displaying acts of arrogance.

Anyway, good luck in fighting off the hordes of anti-Spartans attempting to break you through false PR.
[/quote]

I'd concede the point if Lusitan wasn't arguing FOR the other side. Every post of his in this thread has been attempting to add credence to the argument that Sparta is a bad alliance. How am I supposed to NOT respond to that? Has he even said a good word about us? Not really. I wouldn't call Lusitan neutral any more than I would call David Irving neutral in certain 'denial' scandals. If he's arguing for the other side, the effect is the same weather he believes it or not.

Countering arguments that' we suck is, in no way, over reacting to arguments that we suck. I can't stress that enough. If defending your alliance makes you a poor leader, so be it. Call me the worst leader in Cybernations, and I'll be happy to wear the crown of shame.

But incidentally, if your claims are true, I appreciate TFD's supposed indifference to Sparta. Best of luck and all.

Edit: Oh, and your friend used personal attacks first, I am perfectly willing to stoop to his level if that's the game.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='16 July 2010 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1279243356' post='2373872']
I'd concede the point if Lusitan wasn't arguing FOR the other side. Every post of his in this thread has been attempting to add credence to the argument that Sparta is a bad alliance. How am I supposed to NOT respond to that? Has he even said a good word about us? Not really. I wouldn't call Lusitan neutral any more than I would call David Irving neutral in certain 'denial' scandals. If he's arguing for the other side, the effect is the same weather he believes it or not.

Countering arguments that' we suck is, in no way, over reacting to arguments that we suck. I can't stress that enough. If defending your alliance makes you a poor leader, so be it. Call me the worst leader in Cybernations, and I'll be happy to wear the crown of shame.

But incidentally, if your claims are true, I appreciate TFD's supposed indifference to Sparta. Best of luck and all.

Edit: Oh, and your friend used personal attacks first, I am perfectly willing to stoop to his level if that's the game.
[/quote]

Excuse me, but was I supposed to say a good word about you when I know little to nothing about you, except what I read on these forums? Which was, anyway, all that I was discussing, designately how other people feel about you in this thread in particular.

Anyway, I am pretty sure I had pointed I never interacted with Sparta before. So no, I have nothing against Sparta. Do I disagree with your perception that winning wars makes you a good alliance? I do. Do I think that because you're Sparta? Not really, there are 5 or 6 other alliances I think the same of.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='15 July 2010 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1279244281' post='2373888']
Excuse me, but was I supposed to say a good word about you when I know little to nothing about you, except what I read on these forums? Which was, anyway, all that I was discussing, designately how other people feel about you in this thread in particular.

Anyway, I am pretty sure I had pointed I never interacted with Sparta before. So no, I have nothing against Sparta. Do I disagree with your perception that winning wars makes you a good alliance? I do. Do I think that because you're Sparta? Not really, there are 5 or 6 other alliances I think the same of.
[/quote]

This is what is so confusing about this encounter: If you've never had contact with Sparta, and you're just looking at other opinions, why did you only cite negative opinions, in stead of conceding that people both like and dislike Sparta? What possessed you only to repeat other people's slander, and not acknowledge that people love us and we have good qualities as well?

If you don't have an opinion, why did you argue with me trying to support other people's opinions of us?

If you were repeating both sides of the argument, I wouldn't have said anything, but it seems you've only been given one side of the argument, and I'm obligated to provide the other.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[kotic]

I still think it's rok. We lovvvvveeeeee war yumm

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='15 July 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1279233825' post='2373645']

Ok so we've established you're biased against Sparta. That's pretty much going to invalidate your attempt to present "Sparta Sucks" as objective truth. I also like the fact that you cited the so called "NPO Backstab" as the reason you hate Sparta, when that, it's self, is a hugely biased interpretation of what happened. I can pretty much write off everything you say as the ravings of a rabid anti-Spartan, it's clear you're not objective here.

[/quote]

Umm, Sparta admitted to making war plans against NPO and company months before leaving Q. You backstabbed the entire bloc and violated Q for months before leaving at basically the last minute before Karma started.

[D34th]

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='16 July 2010 - 01:53 AM' timestamp='1279252406' post='2374081']
Umm, Sparta admitted to making war plans against NPO and company months before leaving Q. You backstabbed the entire bloc and violated Q for months before leaving at basically the last minute before Karma started.
[/quote]

LIES! Sparta is honorable and loyal!

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='D34th' date='16 July 2010 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1279255963' post='2374191']
LIES! Sparta is honorable and loyal!
[/quote]
See, this man has sense.

Thank you for your support, D34th.