The Chaos - Order Meta-battle for CN

[Mixoux]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='19 May 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1274309230' post='2303796']
Is this what trending towards chaos looks like here? Looks like we're going to have to try and trend harder.
[/quote]

Slightly towards, yeah. The furthest on the 'Chaos' side would probably have been mid-07 leading up to UJW, where it then slowly creeped further and further into far-Order.

Now the alliances most known for raiding and other anti-moralist policies are fairly well protected, as shown by the last war.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='16 May 2010 - 05:38 AM' timestamp='1274006268' post='2299688']
It has become clear that there is a larger battle for the souls of citizens of this war torn planetoid. One one hand we have those forces or Order who want laws to be followed, respect to be shown, etc. On the other hand we have the forces of Chaos, who are all about personal freedom, showing no respect, etc.
[/quote]

There are no "forces of chaos." The verse just exists. We try to make some sort of "order" out of it by creating alliances and establishing treaties. The battle you speak of is not about law vs. chaos, it's about whose law dominates.

To put it simply, who gets their way?

(Very good topic, though. Interesting discussion.)

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='18 May 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1274203615' post='2302245']
Simply assembling under a specific AA shows order. A charter shows order. Government structure shows order. Any sort of inner/inter-alliance guidelines shows order. Simply put, an alliance can not operate under chaos, and alliances are what dictate the political climate of this world.
[/quote]


Oh no, I agree with a GOON again

[Aurion]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='16 May 2010 - 06:38 AM' timestamp='1274006268' post='2299688']
Probably not the first person to think of this, but think of it I did.

It has become clear that there is a larger battle for the souls of citizens of this war torn planetoid. One one hand we have those forces or Order who want laws to be followed, respect to be shown, etc. On the other hand we have the forces of Chaos, who are all about personal freedom, showing no respect, etc.

When the NPO was in charge it can be said that the pendulum had been swung too far to the Order side of the equation and people felt stifled. Now that we have a free for all, I believe we've gone to far to the chaotic side of things.

Will we ever reach a median state, where people have enough sense of personal freedom while respecting traditins and laws or will we always have this conflict?

Note, Chaos and Order (for want of better terms) have nothing to do with good and evil. There are both on each side.
[/quote]

Hm, so it was "order" before Karma?

It sure seemed to me that the politics were an endless game of musical chairs.

But I'm not really into the backchannels, so call me crazy if you like.

[Ogaden]

The core of your argument is that "Freedom From" is desirable. Freedom from upstarts challenging you, freedom from people saying or doing things you don't like, freedom from challenges to your authority etc.

I am here to post a rebuttal.

My alliance and those like us, we believe in Freedom To. Freedom to speak your mind, Freedom to decide your own course, Freedom to set your own alliance policies. Freedom to act in accord with your own beliefs. We are no moral crusader, we draw a line around those we hold dear to us, but we have no interest in puritanical crusades or delusions of grandeur or authoritarian control.

You call it chaos sir, I call it liberty.

Edited May 22, 2010 by James Dahl

[ktarthan]

James, I love it every single time you post your "Freedom From vs. Freedom To" argument.

[Ellis]

[quote name='James Dahl' date='22 May 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1274499437' post='2307656']
The core of your argument is that "Freedom From" is desirable. Freedom from upstarts challenging you, freedom from people saying or doing things you don't like, freedom from challenges to your authority etc.

I am here to post a rebuttal.

My alliance and those like us, we believe in Freedom To. Freedom to speak your mind, Freedom to decide your own course, Freedom to set your own alliance policies. Freedom to act in accord with your own beliefs. We are no moral crusader, we draw a line around those we hold dear to us, but we have no interest in puritanical crusades or delusions of grandeur or authoritarian control.

You call it chaos sir, I call it liberty.
[/quote]

While I find nothing wrong with things as they are now, you're certainly no George Washington
Therefore, my rebuttal to your rebuttal is this:
Freedom to go along and $@#%& up a nation someone's worked on for, in some cases, years?
Freedom to act in accord with your own beliefs, if you believe in PZI and EZI?
Freedom to decide that your course involves control of an entire team?

Also, I'm reasonably sure that you've been putting words in Hymen's mouth, too...

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='16 May 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1274006268' post='2299688']
When the NPO was in charge it can be said that the pendulum had been swung too far to the Order side of the equation and people felt stifled. Now that we have a free for all, I believe we've gone to far to the chaotic side of things.
[/quote]

So actually, having re-read your post, and the OP, you're really rebutting something that hasn't been said.
Nice job on that though

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Ellis' date='22 May 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1274527968' post='2307898']
While I find nothing wrong with things as they are now, you're certainly no George Washington
Therefore, my rebuttal to your rebuttal is this:
Freedom to go along and $@#%& up a nation someone's worked on for, in some cases, years?
Freedom to act in accord with your own beliefs, if you believe in PZI and EZI?
Freedom to decide that your course involves control of an entire team?

Also, I'm reasonably sure that you've been putting words in Hymen's mouth, too...



So actually, having re-read your post, and the OP, you're really rebutting something that hasn't been said.
Nice job on that though
[/quote]


I think James was only comparing two different sides and claiming the "Freedom to" is the lesser of the two evils. I would rather have a world in which people can speak freely, and happen to say mean things to one another; rather than a world where you can't speak your mind at all.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='19 May 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1274308504' post='2303786']
I am glad you agree with me
[/quote]

I'm a very agreeable person

[quote name='White Chocolate' date='19 May 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1274327185' post='2304165']
There are no "forces of chaos." The verse just exists. We try to make some sort of "order" out of it by creating alliances and establishing treaties. The battle you speak of is not about law vs. chaos, it's about whose law dominates.

To put it simply, who gets their way?

(Very good topic, though. Interesting discussion.)
[/quote]

Interesting point, and true to extent. However, I'd think (again, if this two-dimensional dichotomy were to be used) what really divides individual alliances is their tendencies to either believe that rules and morals should be in place, and that these are more-so permanent rather than arbitrary. Chaos would like to believe that these are merely 'guidelines' and that most actions are judged on whether or not you can get away with it or not (KoNi!)

A CB for example is really just a justification to everyone else as to why you want or need a war. If Bob had evolved a different way, you could very possibly see alliances rolling others for the sake of not liking them. It would definitely make things more interesting, albeit chaotic

[Earogema]

I love chaos thing myself, so yeah, I don't care really. In fact, I think we need a bit more, the fact that "sides" of the MDP web have become quite obvious I think is proof of that.

[General Ozujsko]

I think the black-and-white thinking of a "Order camp" vs a "Chaos camp" is a bit of a stretch. If anything, a balance of power has been reached between two sides, but neither are truly monolithic. We like to pretend that one side represented Order and the other side represented Chaos because one side used Order in their AA and the other liked being lulzy.

[Daikos]

The Order vs Chaos comparison is a joke. Seeing alliances stomped for fabricated and nonsensical reasons certainly doesn't convey order to me.


A better comparison would be an Authoritarian regime vs a Minarchist setup.

[JimKongIl]

In SE, chaos is punished pretty swiftly so its no surprise that order prevails and chaos is shortlived.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

There [i]IS[/i] no chaos, except in "None".Even so called lulz alliances are order, by virtue of organizing in the form of an alliance.