A Joint Announcement by the Orange Defense Network and Sparta

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='05 May 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1273091757' post='2287982']
Well, considering your a pestilence, sanctions are like pesticide.

Name one person Sparta has inappropriately sanctioned.[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Actually, sanctions don't accomplish anything other than disrupting other peoples' trades.

Also, me. I was attacked by a Spartan nation once. Unprovoked. I fought back and was sanctioned. Tell me how that is a valid sanction when you attacked me first.[/color]

[Matthew The Great]

[quote name='Tulak Hord' date='05 May 2010 - 05:44 AM' timestamp='1273052678' post='2287525']
You're truly special. Really now, keep posting just for my sake. I love you in ways nobody can understand you beastly man beast. Oh, and reps? We only accepted any real reps last war actually, [b]and that's because Legion/TOOL "defended" an aggressive and unwarranted war in order to attack [size="4"]us[/size][/b]. Harsh terms over a long period of time, ha.[/quote]

Ok, Maybe I am not seeing things clearly, but TOP, IRON, DAWN, and TORN attacked CnG, not Sparta


Also the other option would have been to simply ignore our treaties, Quite a few Legionnaires did not like TOP/IRON/Co's decision but we honored a treaty, the same in Karma, not very many liked NPO's decision but we honored a treaty....and if you were in the same situation I would hope you would do the same

[Banksy]

[quote name='Matthew The Great' date='06 May 2010 - 10:21 AM' timestamp='1273094462' post='2288042']
Ok, Maybe I am not seeing things clearly, but TOP, IRON, DAWN, and TORN [b]attacked CnG, not Sparta[/b]


Also the other option would have been to simply ignore our treaties, Quite a few Legionnaires did not like TOP/IRON/Co's decision but [b]we honored a treaty[/b], the same in Karma, not very many liked NPO's decision but we honored a treaty....and if you were in the same situation I would hope you would do the same
[/quote]
You answered it yourself, they honoured their treaty. From the Athens-Sparta MDoAP "Should a non-signatory individual or alliance declare war on a signatory of this treaty, it shall be seen as an attack on both signatories, and will be treated as such." When you launch a direct attack on a bloc, !@#$ happens.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Banksy' date='05 May 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1273094912' post='2288053']
You answered it yourself, they honoured their treaty. From the Athens-Sparta MDoAP "Should a non-signatory individual or alliance declare war on a signatory of this treaty, it shall be seen as an attack on both signatories, and will be treated as such." When you launch a direct attack on a bloc, !@#$ happens.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]It was a defensive war for those originally attacked as far as I am concerned. Sparta entered in voluntarily, although they did have treaty obligations. Same for all those that entered in on the other side in that way. You see, the way I see it after the first wave of declarations there is no "offensive" or "defensive" sides in the war. Aside from the initial combatants that is. To treaty people who enter in after two or three chains of treaties as either is just a bit silly in my opinion.[/color]

[Gunnar Griffin]

[quote name='Banksy' date='05 May 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1273094912' post='2288053']
You answered it yourself, they honoured their treaty. From the Athens-Sparta MDoAP "Should a non-signatory individual or alliance declare war on a signatory of this treaty, it shall be seen as an attack on both signatories, and will be treated as such." When you launch a direct attack on a bloc, !@#$ happens.
[/quote]
Excuse me, but that's a terrible application of logic. Athens was attacked, Sparta came in to defend them. After that, you can't really use the whole "treaty logic" as it only applies to the first wave. Otherwise both sides would be claiming, "ZOMG DEFENSE!!@!shift!!one1!!1"

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 May 2010 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1273095524' post='2288063']
Sparta entered in voluntarily, although they did have treaty obligations.
[/quote]
Whatever you say, RV. [img]http://www.cnsparta.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif[/img]

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='05 May 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1273095903' post='2288072']
Whatever you say, RV. [img]http://www.cnsparta.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif[/img]
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You did enter voluntarily. There is nothing to stop you from ignoring treaties. What you cannot ignore, however, is a direct attack on your alliance. So yes, you did decide to enter than war of your own accord, regardless of what motives you had (treaty or otherwise). No matter how you spin it you were not the defender. MK, Athens, and the rest of CnG were.[/color]

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 May 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1273096175' post='2288078']
You did enter voluntarily. There is nothing to stop you from ignoring treaties. What you cannot ignore, however, is a direct attack on your alliance. So yes, you did decide to enter than war of your own accord, regardless of what motives you had (treaty or otherwise). No matter how you spin it you were not the defender. MK, Athens, and the rest of CnG were.
[/quote]
Here, I cite Banksy:
[quote name='Banksy' date='05 May 2010 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1273094912' post='2288053']From the Athens-Sparta MDoAP "Should a non-signatory individual or alliance declare war on a signatory of this treaty, it shall be seen as an attack on both signatories, and will be treated as such."
[/quote]

We do not ignore our treaties (you ask about change, this is one of them). I would rather ignore a direct attack on my alliance than ever ignore an unjustified attack on an ally and refuse their request for help. Our treaty with Athens, which we hold in the highest priority, specifically states that an attack on either of our alliances is an attack on our own. If TOP doesn't agree with that logic, they shouldn't have attacked a bloc having Athens as a member. That is our stance, and Sparta stands by it.

Good day.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Seth Muscarella

[Banksy]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='06 May 2010 - 10:39 AM' timestamp='1273095524' post='2288063']
[color="#0000FF"]It was a defensive war for those originally attacked as far as I am concerned. Sparta entered in voluntarily, although they did have treaty obligations. Same for all those that entered in on the other side in that way. You see, the way I see it after the first wave of declarations there is no "offensive" or "defensive" sides in the war. Aside from the initial combatants that is. To treaty people who enter in after two or three chains of treaties as either is just a bit silly in my opinion.[/color]
[/quote]
Sparta did not enter voluntarily. Its MDP obligations clearly stated that it must respond to a direct attack on Athens and FoB. This was why TOP's attack was so absurd.

As for ignoring treaties, lol. First you attack Sparta for ignoring treaties, and what a terrible crime ignoring treaties is. Then you turn around and say they could have ignored them in this case? Seems a little odd

[quote name='Gunnar Griffin' date='06 May 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1273095730' post='2288068']
Excuse me, but that's a terrible application of logic. Athens was attacked, Sparta came in to defend them. After that, you can't really use the whole "treaty logic" as it only applies to the first wave. Otherwise both sides would be claiming, "ZOMG DEFENSE!!@!shift!!one1!!1"
[/quote]
You don't appear to understand how a MDP works. The fact they are called "[i]Mutual[/i] Defence pacts" is key here. When a third party attacks a signatory, then it is seen as an attack on both. The other signatory *must* come to the military aid of the other. In signing a MDP, therefore, you are removing your sovereignty. When TOP directly attacked both FoB and Athens, by extension, it attacked Sparta. A direct attack on an alliance means every single one of that alliance's treaty partners are automatically at war with the aggressor.

As for the "first wave" - it was the first wave :/ The direct attack was on C&G, and by default, all of their MDP allies.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Banksy

[SiCkO]

I find it hilarious that ODN is doing Sparta a huge favor by trying to dig them out of a PR hole while Sparta's leaders keep tunneling.

[Jrenster]

I think what's more important is that Sparta extracted reparations from this war. It is somewhat true that you fought a difficult war, but where do you get off to think that you can profit from it using a treaty clause? From my point of view, Sparta just engaged in some straight up war profiteering.

[Enzos]

HAHAHA This thread is hilarious

I thought I was late on congratulating ODN & Sparta on this awesome new treaty, it turns out I got late on seeing third parties spamming/trolling this announcement.

This is an announcement coming from 2 alliances stating they are friends through good and bad times. As a member of 1 of those alliances this is a glorious announcement from my point of view and I will willingly sacrifice my pixels for ODN Whenever whereever. So HAIL ODN & HAIL this treaty.

To all the people that instead of commenting on this announcement have started trolling 1 of the signoraties, I have only 1 single thing to say. You are off topic! It has nothing to do with this treaty, there are more appropriate places to discuss Alliances histories. Shame on you for trying to put a newly made friendship into a dark corner.

o/ ODN
o/ Sparta
o/ the Game

[Matthew The Great]

I want a question answered:

Are you (Sparta) saying that, despite your repeated claims that you do not leave allies out to dry, The Legion and TOOL should have left IRON out to dry?

[Enzos]

[quote name='Matthew The Great' date='06 May 2010 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1273102143' post='2288210']
I want a question answered:

Are you (Sparta) saying that, despite your repeated claims that you do not leave allies out to dry, The Legion and TOOL should have left IRON out to dry?
[/quote]

I'm not Spartan gov, I'm just a member. But the answer is short and easy, it is NO. Both Legion & TOOL have earned a certain amount of respect in Sparta. They were both worhty and in certain ranges mighty and organised opponents in war and we respect a good organised enemy. We wouldn't want it any other way.

TOOL has the respect from almost all of Sparta. ( I say almost because some of our hundreds of members just won't post on our forums ) but the ones who do have only good things too say, it's a shame we are not allies
Legion also has respect from us, the respect towards legion is because of their members loyalty to their cause and AA and their willingness to sacrifice their pixels for that AA. I trespect legion membership, but not their Past leader, who played some nasty tricks during the war.


Signed,
A spartan grunt

[Philosoraptor]

Shockingly enough from reading recent posts, this thread has nothing do do with Legion and TOOL.

Any off topic posters will be receiving warns from now on.

[Horatio II]

My only comment on this is that I know ODN is classy and that they would not have entered into an agreement with anyone without thinking it through.

[Imperator Hades]

Is it just me...or has everyone forgot about ODN?

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Imperator Hades' date='05 May 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1273104843' post='2288269']
Is it just me...or has everyone forgot about ODN?
[/quote]
Sparta hasn't.

I had an orange for breakfast this morning, actually.

[Seth Muscarella]

I woke up next to an orange this morning, actually.

[Imperator Hades]

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='06 May 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1273111410' post='2288501']
I woke up next to an orange this morning, actually.
[/quote]
You thought it was an orange..it was actually a dog..well, actually it was a human female who looked like a dog. Alcohol is not your friend sethly.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Imperator Hades

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 May 2010 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1273093939' post='2288028']
[color="#0000FF"]Actually, sanctions don't accomplish anything other than disrupting other peoples' trades.

Also, me. I was attacked by a Spartan nation once. Unprovoked. I fought back and was sanctioned. Tell me how that is a valid sanction when you attacked me first.[/color]
[/quote]


It is valid because it occurred. Now whether it is right in the realm of morals... it all depends whose side you are on. When in doubt, change colors to a more "fair" color.

[itida]

I bought a slave orange and set it free today..

Edited May 6, 2010 by itida

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='05 May 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1273091637' post='2287979']
There are a lot of people here who actually have cared about ODN. Some of us still do.
[/quote]
Cheers Haf

[Bob Janova]

No-one's forgotten about ODN, it's just that they've learnt the art of tact and taking hostile commentary gracefully, something which they should be teaching to Sparta by the looks of it.

[quote]While I can agree with you on this point, I'm sure this is stemming from the misconception that Olaf cares about what anyone thinks. [/quote]
He's a leader of your alliance, its public face to the world. He should care. The 'peanut gallery' has more power than some of you people in your ivory towers believe; 'peanut gallery' sentiment was a large part of the reason that the Unjust War and Karma went the way they did. The NPO always realised this, which is why they had a propaganda team – their radio silence in the spring of 2009 combined with continued Vox exposés and more strident negative posting from the 'other side' (mostly C&G) probably did as much to lose them the war as back channel issues.

I hope that you take a hint from ODN and learn tact, because I believe Sparta is a decent alliance in a world with few of those, and I would not want to see you put yourself on the 'disliked by the peanut gallery' list through your conduct in the face of criticism.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='06 May 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1273148722' post='2288911']
No-one's forgotten about ODN, it's just that they've learnt the art of tact and taking hostile commentary gracefully
[/quote]
Heh two or so years of living with the peanut gallery at our throats tends to teach one the benefits of taking harsh criticism on the chin...besides at times we have deserved it.