Sanctions as a Weapon

[Daikos]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='16 April 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1271434391' post='2262869']
You pretty much lead the entirety of Planet Bob in sanctions handed out against people who some alliance wants to ZI.
[/quote]

I wish we could get Umbrella off the black team. They are such fascists.

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='16 April 2010 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1271434391' post='2262869']
You pretty much lead the entirety of Planet Bob in sanctions handed out against people who some alliance wants to ZI.
[/quote]

Yes, sanctions should be reserved for never, I completely agree.

[Sir Keshav IV]

To me,

Aiding an enemy of an alliance during a war is aggression. When Methrage did that, GOONS had every right to attack him. Now since he is on his own, its a rogue action, therefore this sanction is justified. I don't see any point in this thread really. It's really not an injustice because sanctioning has always been done to rogues.

Now onto Umbrella, how are they wrong in this? They followed their ally's wish. A lot of alliances who have senators do this as well, so why all the whining and complaining against Umbrella, I really don't know. But whatever floats your boat.~

[Biazt]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='16 April 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1271436669' post='2262908']
To me,

Aiding an enemy of an alliance during a war is aggression. When Methrage did that, GOONS had every right to attack him. Now since he is on his own, its a rogue action, therefore this sanction is justified. I don't see any point in this thread really. It's really not an injustice because sanctioning has always been done to rogues.

Now onto Umbrella, how are they wrong in this? They followed their ally's wish. A lot of alliances who have senators do this as well, so why all the whining and complaining against Umbrella, I really don't know. But whatever floats your boat.~
[/quote]

See Bob, this guy gets it pretty easily. Why don't you?

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='16 April 2010 - 08:48 AM' timestamp='1271432866' post='2262852']
A recognition of hostilities isn't a DoW. As you note, he's talking about a CSA member who was in a defensive war with you, and he didn't declare war with the other half () of Citadel.

Also, to use that argument makes it an alliance war (an alliance recognising a state of war) rather than a rogue incident and, again, sanctions are not then justified.

And in that analogy, you are aiding the nation in their fight against the Spoons, not paying it to fight for you ... since it's fighting already and doesn't take on any more wars as a condition of the aid, that's pretty clear.
[/quote]
No, it was not a recognition of hostilities - it was a "recognition of a state of war" before GOONS had taken any aggressive actions against Methrage. There were no hostilities to be recognized at the time, other than the ones he conjured up himself. He stuck his nose in our business, aided and abetted our enemy, had the audacity to demand we cease valid attacks, and then declared himself at war with GOONS, all the while asking for third parties to aid him in his aggression.

My argument has nothing to do with it being an alliance war - Methrage is not in an entity that GOONS considers an alliance. My argument is that his actions were entirely aggressive; his intention is to cause harm to GOONS, and we had every reason to believe he would continue to act on this intention. The fact that he used the phrase "The Citadel" in that declaration instead of "I, Methrage" is entirely moot, because aside from the ex-CSA nation he was aiding, he was the only person in The Citadel.

Edit: as for the "he didn't declare war with the other half of The Citadel" - This is just silly. In context there is no ambiguity as to what he was referring to.

I would also like to point out that Methrage himself admits that he aided our enemy and that it would be considered an act of war, but the only defense he offers is:
[quote name='Methrage' date='15 April 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1271392643' post='2262251']
It started with you guys saying you didn't consider the aid I sent to count since you got the guy deleted, so we weren't really at war. Then suddenly several weeks later I get demands for surrender and declared on by nippy while already fighting a tech raider and Gremlin. Also I had more members when declaring any wars.
[/quote]
[quote name='Methrage' date='15 April 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1271393649' post='2262276']
It did go away, that transaction and nation vanished, as well as you guys saying you didn't consider it an act of war at the time.
[/quote]
(He uses this argument a couple more times but it was getting lengthy. Also the part about "a few weeks later"? Hah! It was at the very most 4 or 5 days.)

This is entirely false, and any attempts to contradict or disprove him have either been dodged or ignored completely.

Edited April 16, 2010 by ktarthan

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Methrage' date='15 April 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1271379647' post='2262007']
At this point I think I respect Gremlins more than Umbrella, at least they don't resort to petty tactics like this.
[/quote]
Yes they do.

[Thomas Jackson]

So let me get this straight: a guy who forms a one-man alliance can aid an enemy combatant, threaten war to a specific time and date (including use of nukes) and even declare war without being the aggressor. Are some of you people even thinking before you support this guy, or are you blinded by your own hatred?

[The AUT]

[quote name='Biazt' date='16 April 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1271436811' post='2262911']
See Bob, this guy gets it pretty easily. Why don't you?
[/quote]

So I guess it's now a person's opinion is indicative of the entire situation. Fyi Keshav used to be in Umbrella and just left MK, he's not exactly biased. It's based on different perspectives, there's nothing to "get" other than a matter of interpretation from both sides.

[Thomas Jackson]

[quote name='Methrage' date='15 April 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1271379647' post='2262007']
At this point I think I respect Gremlins more than Umbrella, at least they don't resort to petty tactics like this.
[/quote]
So denying trades to a rogue is much worse than holding out from ending a war in an attempt to scrounge more cash and tech than your allies would be getting?

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='The AUT' date='16 April 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1271443249' post='2262985']
So I guess it's now a person's opinion is indicative of the entire situation. Fyi Keshav used to be in Umbrella and just left MK, he's not exactly biased. It's based on different perspectives, there's nothing to "get" other than a matter of interpretation from both sides.
[/quote]

How does my former alliances even come into this discussion? Also don't you mean UN-biased?

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='The AUT' date='16 April 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1271443249' post='2262985']
So I guess it's now a person's opinion is indicative of the entire situation. Fyi Keshav used to be in Umbrella and just left MK, he's not exactly biased. It's based on different perspectives, there's nothing to "get" other than a matter of interpretation from both sides.
[/quote]

Keshav hasn't been in Umbrella for almost a year now.

Edit: Though now that I think about it, it doesn't matter anyways.

Edited April 16, 2010 by AAAAAAAAAAGGGG

[Alonois]

[quote name='The AUT' date='16 April 2010 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1271443249' post='2262985']
So I guess it's now a person's opinion is indicative of the entire situation. Fyi Keshav used to be in Umbrella and just left MK, he's not exactly biased. It's based on different perspectives, there's nothing to "get" other than a matter of interpretation from both sides.
[/quote]

So to sum up, what you're saying is GOONS ? He's a rogue nation, he's a nuisance. Theoretically a threat even. He's not an alliance. He's a single, very narcissistic nation who overestimates his capabilities and position. This makes him unreasonable and, being unreasonable, dangerous. Especially with uranium, lead, and any resource that enhances is capability to wage war.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Alonois

[The AUT]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' date='16 April 2010 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1271443899' post='2262995']
How does my former alliances even come into this discussion? Also don't you mean UN-biased?
[/quote]

It's not your former alliance, it's just the sides you tend to take. Since it's indicative of the stances of your former alliances, you tend to side with them. It's not like you don't have an opinion, on the contrary you do have an opinion and stated it. Biazt saying that what you said is absolute truth when it's all subject and open to interpretation is what I was calling out, not you.

Anyways, using sanctions as a weapon has always been a huge fear in terms of the future. I think eventually we'll reach a point where one side doesn't care, the other side complains and sanctions will be used as a weapon. Thus having every aspect intertwined with military politics.

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='JamezBfod' date='15 April 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1271384254' post='2262123']
We are attempting to minimize our losses. It is a thing we GOONS have called strategy. Your baiting is both blatant and of poor quality.
[/quote]
Then people like Nippy shouldn't talk so tough when they can't back it up themselves.

[Sandwich Controversy]

who are you, exactly

[Daikos]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='16 April 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1271445648' post='2263030']
Then people like Nippy shouldn't talk so tough when they can't back it up themselves.
[/quote]

ITT: The return of people running in circles yelling about 1v1 duels.

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='Daikos' date='16 April 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1271445714' post='2263035']
ITT: The return of people running in circles yelling about 1v1 duels.
[/quote]
Uhmm no? This was a reply to an earlier post when this thread was young. It's a simple concept. If you say your gonna ZI someone, attempt it. Don't go sanctioning and then asking for help.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='16 April 2010 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1271446092' post='2263044']
Uhmm no? This was a reply to an earlier post when this thread was young. It's a simple concept. If you say your gonna ZI someone, attempt it. Don't go sanctioning and then asking for help.
[/quote]
1) Nippy attacked before talks of sanctions
2) At no point did Nippy say how Methrage would reach ZI, or that he'd do it alone
3) Where are we asking for help?

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='16 April 2010 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1271446403' post='2263049']
1) Nippy attacked before talks of sanctions
2) At no point did Nippy say how Methrage would reach ZI, or that he'd do it alone
3) Where are we asking for help?
[/quote]
1. Yes he did.
2. Nippy did say he would win the battle, and there were talks of who would ZI who first....
3. Your alliance mate just said you guys are trying to limit the damage himself, I quoted it just now.

[Daikos]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='16 April 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1271446553' post='2263055']
1. Yes he did.
2. Nippy did say he would win the battle, and there were talks of who would ZI who first....
3. Your alliance mate just said you guys are trying to limit the damage himself, I quoted it just now.
[/quote]

Trying to limit the damage one takes in a war? Outrageous!

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='Daikos' date='16 April 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1271446642' post='2263056']
Trying to limit the damage one takes in a war? Outrageous!
[/quote]
Then don't talk smack if your scared of a little bit of damage.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='16 April 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1271446831' post='2263061']
Then don't talk smack if your scared of a little bit of damage.
[/quote]
*sigh* I truly wish people would grow as tired of making this argument as I am of refuting it.

[b]Why in the world would we put ourselves in the way of more harm than necessary?[/b]

If we can prevent damage, we will! This does not mean that we are scared of it by any stretch. The leap of logic needed to make this assertion astounds me.

Edit: clarity

Edited April 16, 2010 by ktarthan

[The Reccesion]

I'm not saying your scared. If Nippy can talk smack, then you should allow him to fight. I mean a nuke or two is nothing...

[Daikos]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='16 April 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1271447026' post='2263065']
I'm not saying your scared. If Nippy can talk smack, then you should allow him to fight. I mean a nuke or two is nothing...
[/quote]

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=344859&Extended=1

Can you show me where he isn't being allowed to fight?

[nippy]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='16 April 2010 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1271447026' post='2263065']
I'm not saying your scared. If Nippy can talk smack, then you should allow him to fight. I mean a nuke or two is nothing...
[/quote]

Babyjesus asked you a question. Since you have no answer for his question, there must be no answer. Your relevance is nil.