The New Grämlins

[Egwaterboy61]

IMO, if you want to play the "paperless" route, then you have to be completely paperless, including Harmlins. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You currently have ONE treaty, so when one looks at how you enter the war, they have to look at your current ties.

That said, even if you did still have a treaty with MK, and went in to defend them, why are you still at war?

EDIT: So to summarize, you either A) enter in on the oA with MHA, and are bandwagoning, or B) Entered to defend MK and should no longer be at war. Which is it?

Edited May 2, 2010 by Egwaterboy61

[shilo]

[quote name='Alekhine' date='02 May 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1272814947' post='2283795']
We did not chain in on Härmlins, as MHA did not activate any defense obligation. We entered to defend MK, and MHA entered with us.
[/quote]
Good, though that only makes the bandwagoning more obvious, thus not really changing the part about the fact that you did bandwagon in. But to go back to the first part of my post Lord Brendan felt the need to partially quote: I don't fault you for bandwagoning. As you mentioned above, you didn't do so alone, many did in this conflict, many did in the past, and will do so in the next.
I was only commenting about the ridiculousness of a statement by a (at this time) government official of your alliance that bandwagoned in falsely accusing my alliance that defended an ally via treaty as bandwagoning.

[Ertyy]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='02 May 2010 - 04:38 AM' timestamp='1272800304' post='2283697']
Honestly Matthew, where is the problem with simply telling them the terms?

What's the reason behind the unconditional surrender?
[/quote]

Years of enabling all manner of shens. Rejecting the fresh start they were given in karma. We do not negotiate with criminal alliances. That mistake was made last year and here we are fighting the same war again this year. We don't plan on having to fight it again next year.

[shilo]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1272815821' post='2283810']
Years of enabling all manner of shens. Rejecting the fresh start they were given in karma. We do not negotiate with criminal alliances. That mistake was made last year and here we are fighting the same war again this year. [u]We don't plan on having to fight it again next year.[/u]
[/quote]
I am curious which terms will guarantee you that, and whatever terms it would be, one more reason why you will never be handing them out to us.
Ignoring the fact of course that I am pretty sure we won't be fighting the same war next year or the year after again...

Edited May 2, 2010 by shilo

[Ertyy]

[quote name='shilo' date='02 May 2010 - 08:59 AM' timestamp='1272815950' post='2283812']
I am curious which terms will guarantee you that, and whatever terms it would be, one more reason why you will never be handing them out to us.
Ignoring the fact of course that I am pretty sure we won't be fighting the same war next year or the year after again...
[/quote]

Well, I am not acquainted with the terms, and even if I were, it would kind of be stupid of me to blurt them out on OWF, wouldn't it?

Though, I would guess that IRON's own pride and fear is doing a better job than we could ever hope to do with terms. I know OWF has been saying lolCodex for the past couple weeks since we aren't accepting its drive-by interpretation of our own laws, but we do feel bound by the Codex in the presentation of terms.

[Egwaterboy61]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1272816538' post='2283822']
Well, I am not acquainted with the terms, and even if I were, it would kind of be stupid of me to blurt them out on OWF, wouldn't it?
[/quote]

Why, worried IRON might see them?

[Ertyy]

[quote name='Egwaterboy61' date='02 May 2010 - 09:10 AM' timestamp='1272816592' post='2283823']
Why, worried IRON might see them?
[/quote]

You people need to seriously throttle back the hate. It's affecting your higher reasoning. No alliance has ever been expected to reveal such internal matters for the dissection of the public.

[Egwaterboy61]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1272817030' post='2283831']
You people need to seriously throttle back the hate. It's affecting your higher reasoning. No alliance has ever been expected to reveal such internal matters for the dissection of the public.
[/quote]

All I am saying is IRON will find out the terms eventually. If you stick by your original contention of "if they don't like the terms, things go back to how they are now" then why are you scared to tell IRON the terms?

TBH, I don't even care about the terms, I want to know what demilitarization entails. Does it include out of pm, nukes, wonders? Can you tell us that one?

[shilo]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1272816538' post='2283822']
Well, I am not acquainted with the terms, and even if I were, it would kind of be stupid of me to blurt them out on OWF, wouldn't it?

Though, I would guess that IRON's own pride and fear is doing a better job than we could ever hope to do with terms. I know OWF has been saying lolCodex for the past couple weeks since we aren't accepting its drive-by interpretation of our own laws, but we do feel bound by the Codex in the presentation of terms.
[/quote]
You are not even telling them us in private, so the pride of IRON (they really don't fear you guys, no one really does ) is doing the best job of destroying your alliance? You confuse me, cause I thought your government was still showing everyone that they are truly the very best at destroying your alliance, though I admit we are trying very hard to assist them in the matter to fasten your decay.

[Ertyy]

[quote name='Egwaterboy61' date='02 May 2010 - 09:22 AM' timestamp='1272817355' post='2283837']
All I am saying is IRON will find out the terms eventually. If you stick by your original contention of "if they don't like the terms, things go back to how they are now" then why are you scared to tell IRON the terms?

TBH, I don't even care about the terms, I want to know what demilitarization entails. Does it include out of pm, nukes, wonders? Can you tell us that one?
[/quote]

IRON gets to see the terms as a reward for unconditional surrender. If we tell them the terms now then we are just negotiating with them.

Like in the completely and totally theoretical situation where they say they will fake unconditionally surrender if we would only tell them the terms first, we may end the war a lot sooner and get props from the public for being total badasses (but we don't care about that, right?). But the point of the exercise would not be served.

[shilo]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1272817888' post='2283849']
IRON gets to see the terms as a reward for unconditional surrender.[/quote]
Shame, I would have hoped that once you guys are completely done, someone would tell us what it was that drove you guys to self-destruction. I guess we will never find out then

[Ertyy]

[quote name='shilo' date='02 May 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1272818065' post='2283855']
Shame, I would have hoped that once you guys are completely done, someone would tell us what it was that drove you guys to self-destruction. I guess we will never find out then
[/quote]

I already told everyone the great secret in this very thread, and only a few minutes ago. Did you not see it?

[Cormalek]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1272818260' post='2283857']
I already told everyone the great secret in this very thread, and only a few minutes ago. Did you not see it?
[/quote]

Hm, honestly - it was only understandable if someone saw some posts of Ramirus on this subject, and he has not graced OWF with His presence. Much to my disappointment (even though it was an understandable decision) they wont be able to see those statements in our embassy either (not any more at least, dunno if someone got there before the mask change).

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Alekhine' date='02 May 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1272814947' post='2283795']
We did not chain in on Härmlins, as MHA did not activate any defense obligation. We entered to defend MK, and MHA entered with us.
[/quote]

Yes, those of us at Gramlins at the time remember it that way, you have to understand though that you've largerly pissed away any chance of being able to harness any positives from this situation. The entry into the war is going to be a long forgotten side story, the otherside has already woven the fantasy interpretation of GRE attacking offensively into a larger discussion into the progress of the conflict.

This Alekhine is what happens when you allow a meglomaniac, and psuedo intellectuals (hi matthew!) to run your alliance. You all could have at least changed the charter to make all this explainable, should have happened before the paperless venture as I tried to point out while I was there but was shouted down and thread locked by your glorious leader. Its unfortunate really because there were good people at GRE, now your trapped into this game of chicken which you wont win.

good luck

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Alekhine' date='02 May 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1272814947' post='2283795']
We did not chain in on Härmlins, as MHA did not activate any defense obligation. We entered to defend MK, and MHA entered with us.
[/quote]
So what are you doing now? MK left the war. And you are defending what now? Nothing. Your war now is one of pure aggression at this point. Not only are you not defendning MK you are holding up any chance of them getting reps. And now your losing the war. Honestly I have never seen an alliance fail so completely so quickly.

[Alekhine]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='02 May 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1272819668' post='2283877']
So what are you doing now? MK left the war. And you are defending what now? Nothing. Your war now is one of pure aggression at this point. Not only are you not defendning MK you are holding up any chance of them getting reps. And now your losing the war. Honestly I have never seen an alliance fail so completely so quickly.
[/quote]

That is correct. I do not support the continuation of the war, but I will not leave the alliance simply because I disagree with a decision the leadership has made.

[Ertyy]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='02 May 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1272819668' post='2283877']
So what are you doing now? MK left the war. And you are defending what now? Nothing. Your war now is one of pure aggression at this point. Not only are you not defendning MK you are holding up any chance of them getting reps. And now your losing the war. Honestly I have never seen an alliance fail so completely so quickly.
[/quote]

Actually, we are defending MK. Unless MK plans on sucking up to IRON between now and the next time they conspire with their cronies to beat down perceived threats, I'm sure MK will appreciate our efforts.

[Kim Jaym Il]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1272815821' post='2283810']
Years of enabling all manner of shens. Rejecting the fresh start they were given in karma. We do not negotiate with criminal alliances. That mistake was made last year and here we are fighting the same war again this year. We don't plan on having to fight it again next year.
[/quote]

How exactly does unconditionally surrendering prevent them from ending up at war with you again next year? Unless you are intending to offer terms that will cripple them for good, you won't be accomplishing anything.

That said, with the rate your alliance has been on the decline, I have no doubt in my mind that you won't be fighting IRON again in a year.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1272820018' post='2283886']
Actually, we are defending MK. Unless MK plans on sucking up to IRON between now and the next time they conspire with their cronies to beat down perceived threats, I'm sure MK will appreciate our efforts.
[/quote]

Appreciate what efforts? Your effort to keep them from getting reps? Your effort to turn everyone one on Planet Bob that would have anything to do with you against them? Your efforts to set a precedent of unconditional surrender that would create a direct threat to them and and every other alliance on Planet Bob that may lose a war some day? Or your efforts to lose a war that was once won? If you get out of this war in one piece MK and everyone else will want nothing to do with you because your alliance has become such a pariah that having you on the same side in any war would be a disaster and see massive defections of alliances to the other side just to get at you. You have already made IRON and DAWN look like the good guys in all this. They now have support from your side of the war. Your only hope in all this is to purge your current leadership and hope IRON and DAWN are willing to build on the good will Gramlins poor decision making has given them and give you easy terms.

Edited May 2, 2010 by The Big Bad

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='03 May 2010 - 04:07 AM' timestamp='1272820018' post='2283886']
Actually, we are defending MK. Unless MK plans on sucking up to IRON between now and the next time they conspire with their cronies to beat down perceived threats, I'm sure MK will appreciate our efforts.
[/quote]
Wait, so your rationale for continuing the war is protecting MK from some hypothetical future war against them in which IRON may be involved? Are you really that desperate to maintain your position in the MKCPS that you are willing to embroil your alliance in an eternal war in order to please them? It is quite funny to see the high and mighty Gremlins competing with Athens and Sparta to see who can prostrate themselves at MK's feet the best.

[Ertyy]

[quote name='Jaymjaym' date='02 May 2010 - 10:08 AM' timestamp='1272820109' post='2283890']
How exactly does unconditionally surrendering prevent them from ending up at war with you again next year? Unless you are intending to offer terms that will cripple them for good, you won't be accomplishing anything.
[/quote]

I already mentioned that their pride and fear is the more significant factor here. At any rate this is about principal. We will not negotiate with a criminal alliance. And while I hold no illusions that our current actions will inevitably result in the ending of IRON's position as a war-monger, we will continue on none-the-less.

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='02 May 2010 - 10:24 AM' timestamp='1272821058' post='2283900']
Appreciate what efforts? Your effort to keep them from getting reps? Your effort to turn everyone one on Planet Bob that would have anything to do with you against them? Your efforts to set a precedent of unconditional surrender that would create a direct threat to them and and every other alliance on Planet Bob that may lose a war some day? Or your efforts to lose a war that was once won? If you get out of this war in one piece MK and everyone else will want nothing to do with you because your alliance has become such a pariah that having you on the same side in any war would be a disaster and see massive defections of alliances to the other side just to get at you. You have already made IRON and DAWN look like the good guys in all this. They now have support from your side of the war. Your only hope in all this is to purge your current leadership and hope IRON and DAWN are willing to build on the good will Gramlins poor decision making has given them and give you easy terms.
[/quote]

I lol'ed. You hear that MK? The Big Bad says you are not going to be our friend anymore because we will have become a political liability.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='02 May 2010 - 10:24 AM' timestamp='1272821072' post='2283901']
Wait, so your rationale for continuing the war is protecting MK from some hypothetical future war against them in which IRON may be involved? Are you really that desperate to maintain your position in the MKCPS that you are willing to embroil your alliance in an eternal war in order to please them? It is quite funny to see the high and mighty Gremlins competing with Athens and Sparta to see who can prostrate themselves at MK's feet the best.
[/quote]

You really are grasping at straws here. All I pointed out is that it could benefit them. I never said anywhere that MK was our chief concern here. See my first response in this post.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Ertyy

[Heft]

[quote name='Alekhine' date='02 May 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1272819950' post='2283884']
That is correct. I do not support the continuation of the war, but I will not leave the alliance simply because I disagree with a decision the leadership has made.
[/quote]
I would like to go on record as fully endorsing a coup of the current sitting government of Gramlins.

[Alekhine]

[quote name='Heft' date='02 May 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1272826187' post='2283960']
I would like to go on record as fully endorsing a coup of the current sitting government of Gramlins.
[/quote]

2/3 of that government is currently up for election as we speak.

[Bob Janova]

Those of you arguing with Ertyy should probably look back at this phrase:
[quote]I am not acquainted with the terms[/quote]
That is, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Even though he's an Archon, the Conclave isn't even telling [i]him[/i] what's going on. Arguing with him is totally pointless because not only will he stonewall you with the same old nonsense that Matthew PK has been using, but he actually doesn't have any information behind the stone wall.

It's a pretty spectacular fall from the position of a group of friends when the Conclave won't even let the highest rank of the alliance know what's going on.

[quote]We entered to defend MK, and MHA entered with us.[/quote]
Yes. You entered on MK's side, which was already clearly the winning side (once Polar bailed out on TOP/IRON), with no treaties. Whatever your motivation for doing so, that is pretty much the textbook definition of bandwagoning.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='02 May 2010 - 01:35 PM' timestamp='1272821740' post='2283907']
I already mentioned that their pride and fear is the more significant factor here. At any rate this is about principal. We will not negotiate with a criminal alliance. And while I hold no illusions that our current actions will inevitably result in the ending of IRON's position as a war-monger, we will continue on none-the-less.



I lol'ed. You hear that MK? The Big Bad says you are not going to be our friend anymore because we will have become a political liability.



You really are grasping at straws here. All I pointed out is that it could benefit them. I never said anywhere that MK was our chief concern here. See my first response in this post.
[/quote]

I am guessing you have not bothered to keep track of things but you don't have any friends anymore. You entered a war without a treaty and then demanded unconditional surrender. You ignored your friends when the time for peace came. You angred them and made them look like fools until they got tired of dealing with you and moved on with peace without you. Now you are alone. Your alliance is collapsing. Mocked by alliances on all sides you have become the poster boy for crimminal alliances. The only thing you have seccured in all this is making IRON and DAWN look good, destroying your reputation, driving away your friends, losing nations and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. If I did not know better I would bet Ram was working for IRON because he has done more harm to your alliance than anyone else ever could have.

Edited May 2, 2010 by The Big Bad