The New Grämlins

[Diomede]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='13 April 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1271185501' post='2258903']
honestly spinning this as part of the TOP-CnG war is like TOP trying to state that their war on CnG was part of the original Polar-\m/ war. both times alliances aggressively attacked other alliances (in Gre's case just a single alliance) in a way that was only ever partially related to the war ongoing. In Gre's case, that reason is now gone and invalid. this war that Gre is waging is a separate war due to the fact that the sole basis for Gre's entrance into the TOP-CnG war is gone.

Gremlins have made this a separate war by their actions just as much as CnG stated TOP/co made their war a separate war based on the actions that TOP/co made. to state that TOP-CnG war was separate from the Polar-\m/ war but that Gremlins-IRON/DAWN war is not separate from the TOP-CnG war is just ridiculously hypocritical.
[/quote]
Apologies, it seems I wasn't clear.
I do view it as the same war. Polar/CnG/Gre-IRON. I just view it as different conflicts. Mike is right in that OG/Zenith can't reenter in defence of IRON because they've already surrendered to Gre, in defence of IRON. Those alliances mentioned by Cormalek didn't, unless I'm mistaken of course.

[Jyrinx]

The Grämlins AA has shed 4 members, 1.29 score, and 371,952 NS in the past two days (all net). Ouch.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='13 April 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1271187720' post='2258934']
The Grämlins AA has shed 4 members, 1.29 score, and 371,952 NS in the past two days (all net). Ouch.
[/quote]
who else has left

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 April 2010 - 10:49 AM' timestamp='1271173740' post='2258744']Because it is an unacceptable moral tragedy to make a defeated enemy disarm before discussing terms; no doubt comparable to a massive group like NPO keeping a comparatively tiny group like FAN in an eternal war!
It is also the same as demanding a defeated group like \m/ become a permanent tech farm for Polaris.[/quote]
Explain "disarming". You make it sound not so bad. Does IRON have to come out of peace mode? Decom nukes? Destroy military improvements? Destroy military wonders? Continue to get hit while they do not retaliate?

[Cormalek]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='13 April 2010 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1271181289' post='2258843']
MHA is an alliance I have long held a soft spot for, to see you hold confidence in some of the poorest behaviour in recent times is somewhat disheartening. I'm curious as to what aspect of these actions fill you full of confidence about the future prosperity of your relationship with Gremlins?[/quote]
[ooc: I blame google.]Well I couldn't find appropriate translation of the idiom I had on mind (it works in french if that would help - avoir du crédit), so I hoped you'll get what I meant. Imagine trust as an asset, one that can be credited (on base of past actions). The amount of given asset (cash, trust) at hand is secondary to general ability to produce and sustain it at high levels. We might disagree or doubt current actions, but we have to regard our past here.

Really, I'm not good at being cryptic, am I?
[ooc: Toyota brakes thing. Would you get into a new Toyota sold in US right now? Do you think of Toyota cars as reliable on general? One does not exclude the other, though it can change the latter in the long run.]

[tobbogon]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='13 April 2010 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1271188425' post='2258941']
who else has left
[/quote]
Chill.. April.. um.. and I do not know the fourth.

Also, I'm really liking all these sigs I'm seeing.

edit: it was Noob Cake...

And Shilo, they do what they want to. If they want to post in the thread, they shall need no encouragement from me.

Edited April 13, 2010 by tobbogon

[shilo]

[quote name='tobbogon' date='13 April 2010 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1271189503' post='2258970']
Chill.. April.. um.. and I do not know the fourth.

Also, I'm really liking all these sigs I'm seeing.
[/quote]
Credit for the new version goes to Seipher Caim. You should ask more of your alliance mates to wear them, and also encourage them to post more in this thread

[ROMMELHSQ]

Chill finally left?? took him long enough

[Crymson]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='13 April 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1271185501' post='2258903']
honestly spinning this as part of the TOP-CnG war is like TOP trying to state that their war on CnG was part of the original Polar-\m/ war. both times alliances aggressively attacked other alliances (in Gre's case just a single alliance) in a way that was only ever partially related to the war ongoing. In Gre's case, that reason is now gone and invalid. this war that Gre is waging is a separate war due to the fact that the sole basis for Gre's entrance into the TOP-CnG war is gone.

Gremlins have made this a separate war by their actions just as much as CnG stated TOP/co made their war a separate war based on the actions that TOP/co made. to state that TOP-CnG war was separate from the Polar-\m/ war but that Gremlins-IRON/DAWN war is not separate from the TOP-CnG war is just ridiculously hypocritical.
[/quote]

We considered it part of the same war. So did Polar. Heading off CnG was based on strategic reasoning.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Crymson

[The AUT]

I think it's funny those who think MHA is "honorable" and will "do the right thing". These guys don't care. They'll back up Gremlins simply because they know Gremlins will back them up. The only way to stop this nonsense is through direct military intervention. I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue saved for the fact those who would actually go to war for IRON are under terms not to do so. This talk of economic embargoes and wagging your finger isn't going to do anything. If you want Gremlins to back down, go through them and if MHA wants to as well then go through them as well. Enough of the nonsense. One side is refusing to compromise, all this debating isn't going to get us anywhere in the scheme of things.

[scutterbug]

[quote name='The AUT' date='13 April 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1271193388' post='2259111']
I think it's funny those who think MHA is "honorable" and will "do the right thing". These guys don't care. They'll back up Gremlins simply because they know Gremlins will back them up. The only way to stop this nonsense is through direct military intervention. I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue saved for the fact those who would actually go to war for IRON are under terms not to do so. This talk of economic embargoes and wagging your finger isn't going to do anything. If you want Gremlins to back down, go through them and if MHA wants to as well then go through them as well. Enough of the nonsense. One side is refusing to compromise, all this debating isn't going to get us anywhere in the scheme of things.
[/quote]

You really think you know everything Aut don't ya.

Even without seeing our private forums where theres considerable discussion and considerable disappointment several of our members feel with how Ramlins are doing things. Needless to say its not going un noticed and not all of us are willing to follow Ramlins blindly. But alas its down to our elected officials to make the final commitment.

Personally im having great fun telling Ramirus where to stick it in our public embassy.

Edited April 13, 2010 by scutterbug

[The AUT]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='13 April 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1271193756' post='2259114']
You really think you know everything Aut don't ya.

Even without seeing our private forums where theres considerable discussion and considerable disappointment several of our members feel with how Ramlins are doing things. Needless to say its not going un noticed and not all of us are willing to follow Ramlins blindly. But alas its down to our elected officials to make the final commitment.

Personally im having great fun telling Ramirus where to stick it in our public embassy.
[/quote]

Fact is talk is cheap. You may not verbally support him but fact is politically and militarily you are. Like I said, finger wagging isn't going to do anything.

[shilo]

[quote name='The AUT' date='13 April 2010 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1271193388' post='2259111']
I think it's funny those who think MHA is "honorable" and will "do the right thing". These guys don't care. They'll back up Gremlins simply because they know Gremlins will back them up. The only way to stop this nonsense is through direct military intervention. I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue saved for the fact those who would actually go to war for IRON are under terms not to do so. This talk of economic embargoes and wagging your finger isn't going to do anything. If you want Gremlins to back down, go through them and if MHA wants to as well then go through them as well. Enough of the nonsense. One side is refusing to compromise, all this debating isn't going to get us anywhere in the scheme of things.
[/quote]
I really don't believe attacking MHA, who have been put in a difficult position already with their best buddy going completely 120% out of their minds wacko, will help anything.
There is a lot of screws that can be tightened directly on the gRAMlins, and a lot of non-martial aid can be given to us without needing to make something bigger out of this.
Simply put, the gRAMlins don't deserve to have a larger war escalate due to their complete insanity. I prefer to simply let them be hurt completely alone, for as long as it takes, until they change their minds or the last nation there surrendered.

Edited April 13, 2010 by shilo

[scutterbug]

[quote name='The AUT' date='13 April 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1271193859' post='2259117']
Fact is talk is cheap. You may not verbally support him but fact is politically and militarily you are. Like I said, finger wagging isn't going to do anything.
[/quote]

I fail to see anything militarily currently being provided to Ramlins. Please tell me how we can support them militarily when we are offering nothing?

Im sure you can do better than silly little arguments like that.

[The AUT]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='13 April 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1271193954' post='2259123']
I fail to see anything militarily currently being provided to Ramlins. Please tell me how we can support them militarily when we are offering nothing?

Im sure you can do better than silly little arguments like that.
[/quote]

If push comes to shove and this escalates, MHA would back Gremlins militarily correct? Your Harmlins treaty hinges on this very fact.

(Unless there is something I am missing, then I apologize)

[Broncos98]

You don't see your treaty with them as a form of military support? You can do better than that, no?

[scutterbug]

[quote name='Broncos98' date='13 April 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1271194126' post='2259128']
You don't see your treaty with them as a form of military support? You can do better than that, no?
[/quote]

Im sorry i thought we peaced with IRON and thus won't re enter just because Ramlins chose to stay in.

Im guessing i must have missed the memo where we were back at war again because Ramlins ego was too big for themselves to cope with.

Just a bit clueless there eh.

Edited April 13, 2010 by scutterbug

[shilo]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='13 April 2010 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1271194524' post='2259143']
Im sorry i thought we peaced with IRON and thus won't re enter just because Ramlins chose to stay in.

Im guessing i must have missed the memo where we were back at war again because Ramlins ego was too big for themselves to cope with.

Just a bit clueless there eh.
[/quote]
What I think he meant is that you will defend gRAMlins if any other alliance would chose to defend us against their aggression.

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='The AUT' date='13 April 2010 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1271193388' post='2259111']
I think it's funny those who think MHA is "honorable" and will "do the right thing". These guys don't care. They'll back up Gremlins simply because they know Gremlins will back them up. The only way to stop this nonsense is through direct military intervention. I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue saved for the fact those who would actually go to war for IRON are under terms not to do so. This talk of economic embargoes and wagging your finger isn't going to do anything. If you want Gremlins to back down, go through them and if MHA wants to as well then go through them as well. Enough of the nonsense. One side is refusing to compromise, all this debating isn't going to get us anywhere in the scheme of things.
[/quote]

If they keep losing Members at this pace, world will look different in 10 days If I were IRON, I'd present them my terms quickly, before there is no tech left....

[scutterbug]

[quote name='shilo' date='13 April 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1271194690' post='2259146']
What I think he meant is that you will defend gRAMlins if any other alliance would chose to defend us against their aggression.
[/quote]


Cross that bridge when we come to it. But IRON so far have been pretty clear to us they wont be esclating this as such Ramlins can reap what they sow.

[The AUT]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='13 April 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1271194789' post='2259149']
Cross that bridge when we come to it. But IRON so far have been pretty clear to us they wont be esclating this as such Ramlins can reap what they sow.
[/quote]

Can we just cross that bridge now and you tell us what you'd do?

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='scutterbug' date='13 April 2010 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1271194789' post='2259149']
Cross that bridge when we come to it. But IRON so far have been pretty clear to us they wont be esclating this as such Ramlins can reap what they sow.
[/quote]

If you really disapproved of their actions, you could make clear, that you won't support this conflict, no matter who enters.
Not that it matters though. I don't think anyone who would want to get involved would back off because of MHA...

[shilo]

[quote name='The AUT' date='13 April 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1271194867' post='2259153']
Can we just cross that bridge now and you tell us what you'd do?
[/quote]
Well, what I gathered from the great peace accords thread, most "friends" of gRAMlins would definitely defend them. They disapprove, but see no reason to distance themselves further.

[The AUT]

[quote name='shilo' date='13 April 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1271194998' post='2259157']
Well, what I gathered from the great peace accords thread, most "friends" of gRAMlins would definitely defend them. They disapprove, but see no reason to distance themselves further.
[/quote]

Well, again, they can disapprove of something verbally as much as they want but unless they remove backing them militarily and politically it means nothing.

Gramlins isn't going to budge and no one seems to be successful in telling them to back off. The next course of action is through force. That's just my opinion, I'll just leave on that note.

Edited April 13, 2010 by The AUT

[shilo]

[quote name='The AUT' date='13 April 2010 - 11:45 PM' timestamp='1271195082' post='2259160']
Well, again, they can disapprove of something verbally as much as they want but unless they remove backing them militarily and politically it means nothing.

Gramlins isn't going to budge and no one seems to be successful in telling them to back off. The next course of action is through force. That's just my opinion, I'll just leave on that note.
[/quote]
Well, my take is, and I simply am guessing here is, that while almost everyone definitely disagrees with the concept of demilitarization and unconditional surrender, many are still not unhappy IRON and DAWN are being hurt, and would never put helping us over supporting an alliance they consider a friend. So what we get is verbal support for us and a military umbrella for the gRAMlins.

Edited April 13, 2010 by shilo