The New Grämlins

[Louisa]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='19 May 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1274303171' post='2303687']
More like you are locked in the trunk while a mad man takes the wheel.

MHA is trapped by Gre, this is why you don't do crazy things like year long cancellation clauses or never ending treaties. Because sooner or later the people who you loved go away, or are less active in politics, and the reasons for your trust and brotherhood vanish, but you are still stuck with deep commitments to people you no longer know.
[/quote]

I guess this is why I have never really understood these "eternal brotherhood treaties with no cancellation clauses" ([i]NB. may not be actual name[/i]) -- if you are seriously [b]that[/b] close, then you could as well merge. If you are not close enough for a merger, then just get what ever the highest treaty is these days, MDAP etc and agree to like each other very much. Just be aware that things may change, people may leave, etc and so on like TypoNinja said.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1274547801' post='2308106']
TOP tried that with MOTU, remember?
[/quote]


Are you really accusing TOP of being responsible for MOTU going rogue?

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='22 May 2010 - 10:30 AM' timestamp='1274549401' post='2308131']
Are you really accusing TOP of being responsible for MOTU going rogue?
[/quote]


TOP nations aided him, filled his war slots immediately after he declared without significant attacking (for example, one person declared on him then "went on vacation" the next day), then TOP re-admitted him to the alliance while he was still engaged in rogue attacks.

I can't say they were responsible for his actions, but I think it's pretty obvious that they endorsed him.

EDIT: I changed "TOP" to "TOP nations" at the beginning.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Matthew PK

[SynthFG]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='22 May 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1274549401' post='2308131']
Are you really accusing TOP of being responsible for MOTU going rogue?
[/quote]

Yes certain members of TOP did assist Motu in that weather deliberately or because they were just that retarded I won't comment

Tho I do note that you have re-admitted the other TOP member that went rogue on Gre in the week or two before the war kicked off
Luis Quezada http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=231088,
don't suppose you are offering to pay reparations for his actions are you

[Bob Janova]

The codex doesn't stop you paying reps for an aggressive war

I agree with Hal that at this point it is in IRON/DAWN's interest to just keep the status quo going, and use the time they don't have to pay reps to finance lower level rebuilding. Those top tier nations will be pretty much in stasis – collection and bills at similar levels – but it won't be getting any worse, and as soon as the war officially ends, all those mid tier aid slots that they can currently use to fund infra and back collections will be required to pay off C&G's reps. (Unless they make Grämlins pay for them at the end of this of course.)

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='22 May 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1274551102' post='2308176']
Yes certain members of TOP did assist Motu in that weather deliberately or because they were just that retarded I won't comment

Tho I do note that you have re-admitted the other TOP member that went rogue on Gre in the week or two before the war kicked off
Luis Quezada http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=231088,
don't suppose you are offering to pay reparations for his actions are you
[/quote]


Somebody connect these dots for me, since I've been told I make too many logical jumps...

Two nations leave the TOP AA to attack GRE
TOP nations aid and fill war slots
TOP assures GRE that one "rogue" is deleting -- he does not delete and instead uses the reprieve to engage new attacks
That "rogue" is then re-admitted to TOP while actively engaged in his "rogue" actions
The second "rogue" is re-admitted to TOP.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Penkala]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='21 May 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1274498362' post='2307630']
1) So IRON/DAWN should have allowed their allies to take even more damage and also hope that everyone else that was on Gremlins side said "Hey guys, why don't we let TOP and the others stay in to fight Gremlins so that IRON/DAWN don't have to go it alone"... really, this actually crossed your mind? wow. just simply wow.

2) Right, so IRON's upper tier come out of PM, outnumbered by Gre's upper tier (especially at the beginning of this), get stomped on for a while and end up doing what exactly? oh that is right, getting destroyed while possibly bringing down half of Gre's upper NS nations leaving IRON in a worse position than keeping their upper NS nations in pm. yep, you sure are showing your competency here Penkala.

3) If you have not realize but IRON's and DAWN's allies are currently under terms, paying off reperations, and/or rebuilding. seems to me that IRON and DAWN are allowing their allies to do this and also, if you have not noticed, IRON has gained several upper NS nations throughout this war. it may not be all at once, but there are nations joining them.[/quote]

You do realize that this is a [i]war[/i] and that wars do hurt, right? Because IRON seems to forget that. I'm sure you wish war could consist of a DoW and then surrender terms with no real fighting, but that's not the way it works. My point stands: If you want to end this, you can fight.

All I see here is a bunch of whining about the downsides of fighting, and wanting to rebuild, and not wanting to lose infra. Guess what? There's someone not letting you surrender. If you want to end this, it's going to hurt a little bit. It's not our fault that IRON's unwilling to buckle down and do what needs to be done. And most of us are tired of hearing you whine when you're fully capable of doing something to end this yourself. You just don't want to engage their nations because they're 'scary'. No, SG will not attack their nations for you. Sorry. You have to do it. So either work up the courage and attack Gremlins' nations, or [u]quit whining that they won't give you peace.[/u] You have the ability to force a compromise. It's [u]your[/u] fault you're not taking it, not anyone else's.

[quote]
4) yeah, maybe you would accept unconditional surrender but most others would not. [/quote]

[b][i][u]THEN FIGHT.[/u][/i][/b] Seriously, how do you guys not comprehend that there are TWO choices: Fight or surrender unconditionally? Yes, both will hurt! This IS, after all, a war! Pick your poison. Or at least quit whining while you sit here doing nothing and nothing changes.

[quote]so yeah, you want to talk about how incompetent IRON is, but have shown a complete lack of anything that could be called remotely competent in your above options. you simply disregard everything that is occurring or has occurred and you appear to have some sort of delusional thought process going on instead. i hear you like alliance hopping. Gremlins i am sure would have you aboard. ya'll think alike.
[/quote]

Well, first, I don't think you understand what the word 'competent' means. And the only one here 'disregarding' things is you and IRON, who completely disregard the fact that you're in a [b]war[/b]. You need to man up and make a choice to fight them or surrender. Sitting here like babies and crying is unacceptable. YOU are the ones who started this war. It's too damn bad that you don't want to take damage anymore and don't want to surrender. You got yourself into this mess. Quit crying and get yourself out.

[quote]You said one thing right here. It should have ended weeks ago. And no, we aren't sitting here whining. We are working to end the war. White peace has been on the table for the Gramlins for weeks.

I think its hilarious that our competency is being brought into question here. It appears that the Gramlins are losing everything they have while we gain in strength each day.[/quote]

No, you're literally sitting there whining. The reason Gremlins is losing strength is because most of her members are very good people who find this situation unacceptable and are leaving. If you tried your 'tactics' with someone else absolutely nothing would happen, because, to be honest, your 'actions' are having absolutely no impact.

[quote]Options 1 and 3 are the same and IRON's allies are sovereign alliances. IRON doesn't tell them what to do. Many of them would violate their own peace terms by re-entering the fight and they would open themselves up to a resumption of hostilities. I'm confused why you say "All four of which don't including calling in allies."

Option 2- Its easy to play armchair quarterback from the sidelines but if you look at the facts and knew a little bit about CN warfare you'd realize that for IRON to beat Gramlins militarily it would not be an easy task and it would take a very long time. That strategy will only work in the lower ranks. There would need to be a plan B for it to succeed. For you to say that IRON could have ended this weeks ago if 11% of them had come out of peace mode and fought seems a bit naive and unrealistic.

So your only viable option is #4 and the basis for your argument that IRON/DAWN are not competent opponents is because they have not surrendered unconditionally. Does that make any sense at all?

With all due respect your efficiency is under 10 and you are almost 500 days old so you are saying do as I say not as I do. [/quote]

Options 1 and 3 are not the same thing. Please read them again.
Option 2 is your worst option if you took them on alone. Option 3 is your best bet, combined with option 2.
Option 4 is not the only viable option. Options 1, 3 and 4 are completely viable ways to have ended this war.
I don't care about my nation or its growth. Please check my aid slots. You'll see that I send out a constant tech (for free) etc.

[quote]Come down from your clouds people. Ignorantly spewing comments of IRON's competency at this point in time is ridiculous. I forget, which alliance has been actively digging its grave for weeks now? IRON/DAWN is doing exactly what any competent alliances should be doing; achieving victory while taking minimal damage.[/quote]

Well yeah, they can wait it out too, but could they please stop crying on the forums about how bad their life is?

Look, IRON, if you don't want to fight, surrender. If you don't want to surrender, fight. But quit complaining about a war your side started and you made much worse when you have viable options to end this much more quickly.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Penkala

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 11:12 AM' timestamp='1274551910' post='2308191']

[b][i][u]THEN FIGHT.[/u][/i][/b] Seriously, how do you guys not comprehend that there are TWO choices: Fight or surrender unconditionally? Yes, both will hurt! This IS, after all, a war! Pick your poison. Or at least quit whining while you sit here doing nothing and nothing changes.


[/quote]

One choice hurts their infra and the other hurts their pride.
It's a really hard choice for IRON.

So instead, IRON will pretend that GRE's NS drop has something to do with their amazing strategic prowess.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='22 May 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1274551102' post='2308176']
Yes certain members of TOP did assist Motu in that weather deliberately or because they were just that retarded I won't comment

Tho I do note that you have re-admitted the other TOP member that went rogue on Gre in the week or two before the war kicked off
Luis Quezada http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=231088,
don't suppose you are offering to pay reparations for his actions are you
[/quote]


It was my understanding that MOTUs readmission to TOP was OK'd by Gramlins and on the condition he continued paying reps to Gramlins. If this is false please clarify. If you remember his BIO he maintained for a long time even when he was in Gramlins that he had a list of people he was going to hit when he finally decided to leave the game.

Why would I offer to pay reps?

[Penkala]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1274552578' post='2308199']
One choice hurts their infra and the other hurts their pride.
It's a really hard choice for IRON.

So instead, IRON will pretend that GRE's NS drop has something to do with their amazing strategic prowess.
[/quote]

This is exactly what I came back to say. Reading further I see that you guys are trying to take credit for 'grinding' Gremlins? HAHAHAHAHA. That's awesome. Gremlins members are leaving because they disagree with their government, not because you're attacking them or grinding them. You're not winning, Gremlins is defeating themselves. I hope you don't plan on revising history [i]already[/i].

And I'd like to echo Synth: You've chosen the 'wait them out' tactic. Quit whining about how long it's taking. It's your own fault. That's what you CHOSE to do. You can end this more quickly if you had taken one of the four options I mentioned. Those options are still available. So either quietly wait them out or speed it up and finish Gremlins off. But don't whine about how long it's taking when you're afraid to speed it up.

[quote]So if IRON wins, this means Gremlins owes IRON reps doesn't it? By Gremlins own logic? That kind of makes Gremlins current demands of reps from IRON rather moot, doesn't it? IRON will obviously owe Gremlins nothing after ending them.[/quote]

Gremlins hasn't asked for a penny in reps.

[quote](Unless they make Grämlins pay for them at the end of this of course.) [/quote]

Kinda doubting MK would let this happen.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Penkala

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='22 May 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1274553103' post='2308202']
It was my understanding that MOTUs readmission to TOP was OK'd by Gramlins and on the condition he continued paying reps to Gramlins. If this is false please clarify. If you remember his BIO he maintained for a long time even when he was in Gramlins that he had a list of people he was going to hit when he finally decided to leave the game.

Why would I offer to pay reps?
[/quote]


Your understanding is wrong.
I was the MoFA of GRE when MOTU was re-admitted to TOP.
IIRC, TOP had elections during MOTU's "reapplication"
I spoke to Crymson about it when MOTU first applied, then I spoke to each of TOP's three after their election but before MOTU was admitted. I also spoke with MK about it, because at this same time MOTU had declared offensive wars on MK nations.

Reps were agreed (but never paid, AFAIK) to deal with the damage caused to GRE [b]by TOP's nations' actions of filling MOTU's slots[/b] and not the damage MOTU caused.
Nonetheless, I made it very clear to TOP.gov that GRE [b]did not[/b] consider MOTU absolved of his actions; and that there was a deadline for their response (as MOTU would have wars expiring soon). MOTU was, instead, readmitted to TOP and I re-declared war on him.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Matthew PK

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1274552578' post='2308199']
So instead, IRON will pretend that GRE's NS drop has something to do with their amazing strategic prowess.
[/quote]

It is clear that GRE's NS drop is because their members are leaving. If it were not for that fact GRE's NS would have risen just like IRON's. That should be more alarming than military losses.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='22 May 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1274555710' post='2308237']
It is clear that GRE's NS drop is because their members are leaving. If it were not for that fact GRE's NS would have risen just like IRON's. That should be more alarming than military losses.
[/quote]


Alarming? Sure.
A testament to IRON's strategy? No.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='22 May 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1274534302' post='2307933']
Synth, they haven't been complaining about how long it's taking. I don't actually think they want to win the war quickly. It's your alliance and the others they owe reps to that wants them to win quickly.
[/quote]

I don't think that SynthFG wants them to win quickly. I think he wants them to blitz Gramlins with everything they have and lose.

[nikko]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1274555988' post='2308242']
Alarming? Sure.
A testament to gRAMlin's strategy? No.
[/quote]

There, I fixed it for you.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1274551910' post='2308191']
You do realize that this is a [i]war[/i] and that wars do hurt, right? Because IRON seems to forget that. I'm sure you wish war could consist of a DoW and then surrender terms with no real fighting, but that's not the way it works. My point stands: If you want to end this, you can fight.[/quote]
..or, we can be realistic and realize that fighting isn't always the best option.

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1274551910' post='2308191']
...whining...unwilling to buckle down...whine...work up the courage...whining......not comprehend...whining...doing nothing...man up...Sitting here like babies and crying...Quit crying...whining...crying...complaining...
[/quote]
The ghist of your entire post. Now that we've drawn out your clear bias against IRON, let's get a few things straight.

We aren't whining. We aren't complaining. If anything, we are frustrated over how stupid this entire affair is. Don't take our posts on the forums to mean whining or crying, because they aren't.

Oh, and boo hoo, whine whine whine, cry.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1274552578' post='2308199']
So instead, IRON will pretend that GRE's NS drop has something to do with their amazing strategic prowess.
[/quote]

It doesn't, and we don't. The reason Gremlins is losing strength is because most of your members find this situation unacceptable and are leaving. Our 'tactics', fighting or not fighting, really won't have anywhere near as much impact as your own policies.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 02:20 PM' timestamp='1274555988' post='2308242']
Alarming? Sure.
A testament to IRON's strategy? No.
[/quote]


Does it even matter? You have the power to stop the bleeding but you refuse to when your membership and even those you are supposedly defending no longer support your actions. IRON refuses to surrender unconditionally and your strength in relation to them only diminishes. If you haven't made IRON surrender unconditionally yet you won't in the future. So how much damage are you willing to do to your own alliance? Drop this ridiculous demand for unconditional surrender while you still have an alliance with respectable numbers.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Baldr' date='22 May 2010 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1274556234' post='2308249']
I don't think that SynthFG wants them to win quickly. I think he wants them to blitz Gramlins with everything they have and lose.
[/quote]
No because that would be retarded and they would loose badly
I want to see them try and think out of the box about how to deal with the current problem, show a little imagination and end this

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='22 May 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1274557034' post='2308267']
Does it even matter? You have the power to stop the bleeding but you refuse to when your membership and even those you are supposedly defending no longer support your actions. IRON refuses to surrender unconditionally and your strength in relation to them only diminishes. If you haven't made IRON surrender unconditionally yet you won't in the future. So how much damage are you willing to do to your own alliance? Drop this ridiculous demand for unconditional surrender while you still have an alliance with respectable numbers.
[/quote]

FYI: down to 33 nations..I'm even keeping a death watch in my blog for those who are interested.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='22 May 2010 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1274557034' post='2308267']
Does it even matter? You have the power to stop the bleeding but you refuse to when your membership and even those you are supposedly defending no longer support your actions. IRON refuses to surrender unconditionally and your strength in relation to them only diminishes. If you haven't made IRON surrender unconditionally yet you won't in the future. So how much damage are you willing to do to your own alliance? Drop this ridiculous demand for unconditional surrender while you still have an alliance with respectable numbers.
[/quote]


Dwindling numbers don't diminish the validity of our goal.
Furthermore, if you believe the claims of Synth and others in this thread: then those who oppose the policy are already gone and all that's left are us "brainwashed drones" of the ebil overlord Ramirus Maximus..... Should I still be worried about us not having "respectable numbers?"

[heikk-i]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='22 May 2010 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1274552578' post='2308199']
One choice hurts their infra and the other hurts their pride.
It's a really hard choice for IRON.
[/quote]
Third choice would be to do this with slow tempo and minimal damage. IRON/DAWN never wanted this war so accusing us at least doing this the way we want, with minimal damage that is, sounds very weird to me. Unconditional surrender is out of question. And so is attacking with every single nation, as most people with strategic sense probably realize.

Clash already posted some charts from IRON and GRE, same here from DAWN:
[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/ifx5ww.jpg[/IMG]
I think that looks very pretty

[Golan 1st]

Penkala, your logic is twisted.
It's not our fault that Gramlins insist to keep fighting until their complete defeat. We are not obliged to follow your advice to send our top nations to bang their heads into the wall and even if we don't follow it, Gramlins are responsible for the damages the war is causing us (and themselves, but this is their own problem) by continuously refusing to even talk, let alone reach a reasonable settlement of this conflict.
We reserve the right to demand a compensation from them.

[bigwoody]

No! Listen to Penkala, he is a military genius!

Its funny that Gramlins and their supporters are now down to a cry to "Please make a suicide run at us!"

It is far more satisfying to watch Gre explode from within due to their own actions. Of course, Gre has the power to end their own suffering, but chooses not to.

I will not fault IRON and DAWN for not listening to the oh-so-wise tactical suggestions of much of the peanut gallery.

IRON and DAWN will slowly grind Gramlins down, a few nations at a time, while concurrently Gramlins continues to bleed members via both deletions and resignations. Whether this takes weeks or months matters not. This can end as soon as Gre is willing to admit wrongdoing and pay what will likely be light restitution.

Edited May 22, 2010 by bigwoody

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='22 May 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1274557034' post='2308267']
Does it even matter? You have the power to stop the bleeding but you refuse to when your membership and even those you are supposedly defending no longer support your actions. IRON refuses to surrender unconditionally and your [b]strength in relation to them only diminishes[/b]. If you haven't made IRON surrender unconditionally yet you won't in the future. So how much damage are you willing to do to your own alliance? Drop this ridiculous demand for unconditional surrender while you still have an alliance with respectable numbers.
[/quote]
I love that Ramirus is using that very item behind closed doors to try to prove some sort of point about IRON not being sorry for attacking CnG. He is almost solely responsible for the rotting joke that is now Gramlins and seems to think that might makes right is what makes us tick. He's so far off base it's all the more funny to see.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Penkala doesn't really have this "strategy" thing down, does he?

Option 1: All-out attack now, lose, wait a long time for another crack at Gre, which will only gain more power in the meantime.
Option 2: Unconditionally surrender.
Option 3: Wear down Gre one at a time while Gre implodes on itself anyway.

Obviously, Option 3 is best, but Penkala wants Option 1. Of course, it's probably only so that he can see IRON/DAWN hurt even more and not actually because he thinks it's the best option for IRON.