Clarification from The Legion

[neneko]

[quote name='Alterego' date='12 February 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1265983908' post='2177538']
The only surprise is that MK werent to get their mandatory 10k tech for not being at war with them.
[/quote]
That's what I was actually mad at. You read me like a book sweetums.

[Poyplemonkeys]

So let me get this straight.

Legion never explicitly accepted the peace, otherwise logs would be up here already. They may have been 'seeking peace' or said they 'understand' the terms, but they never said 'Legion accepts peace. Signed X, Y, Z' at any point.

Sparta jumped the gun due to a miscommunications problem.

Sparta blames Legion for going back on their word.

Legion blames Sparta for forging signatures on the document.

Both alliances come out of this looking like dicks when if you both just simply accepted the miscomm issue in the first place there would be no threads, no whining, no stupid threats from non-govt members.

tl;dr, Sparta is a terrible alliance. Legion is too.

[der_ko]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='12 February 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1265980888' post='2177494']
[color="#0000FF"]Is it just me or is it more interesting that Sparta was initially demanding 600 million in reparations from a fairly small alliance?[/color]
[/quote]
600 million is nothing these days. I alone can easily pay off 600m if it came to that. If you have a point, I'm not seeing it.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' date='12 February 2010 - 06:16 AM' timestamp='1265984201' post='2177543']
So let me get this straight.

Legion never explicitly accepted the peace, otherwise logs would be up here already. They may have been 'seeking peace' or said they 'understand' the terms, but they never said 'Legion accepts peace. Signed X, Y, Z' at any point.

Sparta jumped the gun due to a miscommunications problem.

Sparta blames Legion for going back on their word.

Legion blames Sparta for forging signatures on the document.

Both alliances come out of this looking like dicks when if you both just simply accepted the miscomm issue in the first place there would be no threads, no whining, no stupid threats from non-govt members.

tl;dr, Sparta is a terrible alliance. Legion is too.
[/quote]

I daresay you've hit the nail on the head.

I think I speak for everyone when I say please don't ever do anything like this again; the war is confusing enough as it is.

[Lukapaka]

Legion, you might want to sit down for a minute. You look dizzy and confused.


Oh yea, and

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='12 February 2010 - 07:21 AM' timestamp='1265980888' post='2177494']
[color="#0000FF"]Is it just me or is it more interesting that Sparta was initially demanding 600 million in reparations from a fairly small alliance?[/color][/quote]
Fairly small? They're ranked 7th for Total Membership.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Lukapaka

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='wickedj' date='12 February 2010 - 08:32 AM' timestamp='1265981550' post='2177505']
No. not really

This whole saga is quite hilarious
[/quote]
Indeed. I had this one jackass sending me individual surrender terms the other day that included decomming nukes. WTF?

[Karl I]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='11 February 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1265946219' post='2176333']
In the midst of these proceedings and without our authorization, [b]Sparta posted our surrender[/b] with sigs never provided to them. I do not recognize this peace as valid and we will fight to whatever end.[/quote]

Hmmm, from what I can tell from this thread; http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80610 , it wasn't Sparta who posted the surrender!

[fallinup420]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='12 February 2010 - 08:14 AM' timestamp='1265976863' post='2177444']
Oh, and wasn't the invention of the Imperator supposed to stop &#$@ ups like this?
[/quote]

As IG there... I thought the same thing. Change the charter, change the government body, and still do things like you used to. *sigh

Edited February 12, 2010 by fallinup420

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]Well then, would you like to explain to me then the point of reparations? Would you like to explain to me how this is an aggressive war on part of Legion? Now I can understand that argument against TOP, but there has to be a point when simply chaining into a war does not make you an aggressor nor a defender. Can Sparta seriously argue that they are in a defensive war when they willing entered into this war? Sure they were following their treaties, but so is pretty much every other alliance involved. Surely you cannot believe that all alliances respectively on TOP's side of the war are aggressors and everyone siding with CnG is a defender (only CnG can truly make that claim).

Also, who says $600 million is a small sum. Do bear in mind that although Legion has a large number of members, they are mostly small. For me three million is several weeks worth of income. Perhaps that sum is only five percent of their total aid slots over the next few weeks, but you must realize that not every aid slot can be used to send out that kind of money. So what we have as a result is Legion staying down and Sparta getting fatter, the divide between strength growing and further contributing to global stagnation.

I do believe it would be in the long term interests of us all to simply not demand reparations here, considering that I am sure Legion contributed negligible damage to Sparta (compared to TOP and IRON) considering they are rather small. Why, many of you demanding blood money have yourselves said Legion contributed close to nothing in damage. Plus, Sparta is more than capable of rebuilding itself. It is not like it needs the money. So all I see here is pettiness, and that will only hurt us all.[/color]

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Hyperion321' date='12 February 2010 - 05:00 AM' timestamp='1265950801' post='2176654']
I suppose this whole argument is rather moot at this point. The war is back on. For this, there will be no white peace for you Legion. This war will be long, and for you it will be painful. Your alliance will be completely and utterly destroyed. Your tech - pillaged. Your nations - flattened. Your citizens - wiped out.

We will not stop or slow down your destruction until you come to us, all together and together in agreement for once, asking for surrender. And no, you won't be able to pull this veto bullcrap again. Until you are ready to give up properly, enjoy your trip through hell. I know I will.
[/quote]

o/ Sparta


I can see this falling into into a depressing pattern.

SF/C&G/attached: White peace?
Ex-Heg: No.
SF/C&G/attached: White peace?
Ex-Heg: No.
SF/C&G/attached: White peace?
Ex-Heg: No.
SF/C&G/attached: OK no white peace.
Ex-Heg: OMG you guys are inflicting harsh terms on us you're Hegemony 2.0! THIS IS SO UNFAIR!

[neneko]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='12 February 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1265987760' post='2177607']
Would you like to explain to me how this is an aggressive war on part of Legion? [b]Now I can understand that argument against TOP[/b]
[/quote]
[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='12 February 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1265987760' post='2177607']
Surely you cannot believe that all alliances respectively on TOP's side of the war are aggressors and everyone siding with CnG is a defender ([b]only CnG can truly make that claim[/b]).
[/quote]
I'll hold you to those.

To respond to the rest of your post declaring because of a treaty doesn't magically remove all responsibility from you and your attempts to claim that 600mil is even a remotely large sum for a 300+ member alliance is laughable at best.

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='12 February 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1265987760' post='2177607']
[color="#0000FF"]Well then, would you like to explain to me then the point of reparations? Would you like to explain to me how this is an aggressive war on part of Legion? Now I can understand that argument against TOP, but there has to be a point when simply chaining into a war does not make you an aggressor nor a defender. Can Sparta seriously argue that they are in a defensive war when they willing entered into this war? Sure they were following their treaties, but so is pretty much every other alliance involved. Surely you cannot believe that all alliances respectively on TOP's side of the war are aggressors and everyone siding with CnG is a defender (only CnG can truly make that claim).

Also, who says $600 million is a small sum. Do bear in mind that although Legion has a large number of members, they are mostly small. For me three million is several weeks worth of income. Perhaps that sum is only five percent of their total aid slots over the next few weeks, but you must realize that not every aid slot can be used to send out that kind of money. So what we have as a result is Legion staying down and Sparta getting fatter, the divide between strength growing and further contributing to global stagnation.

I do believe it would be in the long term interests of us all to simply not demand reparations here, considering that I am sure Legion contributed negligible damage to Sparta (compared to TOP and IRON) considering they are rather small. Why, many of you demanding blood money have yourselves said Legion contributed close to nothing in damage. Plus, Sparta is more than capable of rebuilding itself. It is not like it needs the money. So all I see here is pettiness, and that will only hurt us all.[/color]
[/quote]
Legion have been offered peace without reps but refused as they want to prove their loyalty to and love for their allies. What could prove that more after fighting for them than paying for that privilege? Everybody wins.

[Viluin]

Refusing white peace in a doomed struggle.. I wonder if that offer will still be on the table next time. Should've taken it while you had the chance.

[wandmdave]

[quote name='Alterego' date='12 February 2010 - 07:21 AM' timestamp='1265977291' post='2177450']
So the shake downs have begun. Good show Legion, say no to thuggery and extortion.
[/quote]
Its now a shakedown to demand an alliance that surrenders not be allowed to re-engage?

Thanks for the tip, but unfortunately it appears the shake downs will have to continue if this war is to end.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='neneko' date='12 February 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1265988217' post='2177619']
I'll hold you to those.

To respond to the rest of your post declaring because of a treaty doesn't magically remove all responsibility from you and your attempts to claim that 600mil is even a remotely large sum for a 300+ member alliance is laughable at best.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I could really care less about the sum. There is simply no point for reparations.

And Kowalski, I've never been to fond of the idea of simply laughing at the idea of extorting money from a beaten foe. That was the attitude I fought against when NPO was ruling, and I will fight you too if I must.[/color]

[HellAngel]

I have to say, my respect for Legion grew tenfold in this conflict.

[neneko]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='12 February 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1265988908' post='2177640']
I could really care less about the sum. There is simply no point for reparations.
[/quote]
I'll assume you mean couldn't. You seemed to care quite alot about the huge amount being extorted from the tiny tiny alliance that is legion (currently ranked 7th in membership numbers as someone pointed out).

Why you don't care about the sum is beyond me. If sparta or anyone else want a symbolic sum for being attacked I'd hardly call that extortion.

I'll remind you that we're talking about a hypothetical scenario here. The final offer from sparta had no reps in them. I would be surprised if the next offer legion get is that good.

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='12 February 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1265988908' post='2177640']
[color="#0000FF"]I could really care less about the sum. There is simply no point for reparations.

And Kowalski, I've never been to fond of the idea of simply laughing at the idea of extorting money from a beaten foe. That was the attitude I fought against when NPO was ruling, and I will fight you too if I must.[/color]
[/quote]
I'd share some of your opinions if white peace hadn't been offered, but once that's been refused what do you do? "OK Legion, keep firing nukes & CM's at us until you think you've defended your allies enough and let us know what you want to give it a rest"? Pffft. Legion don't want white peace, in that situation I find it amusing that they will have to pay reps.

[Banedon]

[quote name='LucasSnow' date='12 February 2010 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1265953827' post='2176965']

Enjoy your wars, I hope you like them, because I don't see you getting peace until long after the rest of this war has ended. You don't get terms. You fall.
[/quote]

The Spartan's I've fought couldn't hack their way out of a wet paper bag.
Most of your people are tapped out as it is.
We've faced far worse then you, and we're still here.
If you want a war, bring it.
THIS. IS. LEGION!

/Ave Legio!

[Kowalski]

Don't worry, M*A*S*H have freed up a load of Umbrella nations.

[Ketther]

[quote name='Banedon' date='12 February 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1265989479' post='2177655']
The Spartan's I've fought couldn't hack their way out of a wet paper bag.
Most of your people are tapped out as it is.
We've faced far worse then you, and we're still here.
If you want a war, bring it.
THIS. IS. LEGION!

/Ave Legio!
[/quote]

You don't want to go there. Everyone can give examples, hookay?

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='12 February 2010 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1265988908' post='2177640']
[color="#0000FF"]I could really care less about the sum. There is simply no point for reparations.[/color]
[/quote]

PREACH it brother, preach the gospel. If you got beef with somebody, beat 'em up on the battlefield and quit stealing their cars and lunch money afterward.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Coursca' date='11 February 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1265946763' post='2176388']
I believe what the OP is saying is that there is a process involved with such a decision and that said process was not followed, thus no surrender.
[/quote]

Essentially, yes

[quote name='Van Hoo III' date='12 February 2010 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1265952138' post='2176786']
The individual stated that Legion does not leave friends on the battlefield when in fact you just did so last war. You surrendered one week into the war while the alliance you came in to defend stayed at war for a [b]much[/b] longer period of time.
[/quote]

I won't deny the veracity of this statement Hoo, and that is why I vehemently disagreed to us peacing out and why I denied peace terms.


[quote name='pezstar' date='12 February 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1265954839' post='2177042']
The only logs I've seen of the conversation don't have Sparta offering white peace. The peace offered in those logs have Sparta offering peace contingent on an agreeing not to reenter the war. That's a term, and is therefore not white peace. I read the log as Hubb trying to clarify that point with Sparta, and you guys misunderstanding that. Legion says they didn't agree. You can't provide logs proving they did. You provided easily misunderstood logs, after which Hubb himself stated he wasn't agreeing to peace. So you're condemning an alliance to death for, at best a misunderstanding, and at worst because they won't agree to peace with you.

The fact that you believe that your petty alliance can destroy the Legion, where others who are both larger and smarter than you have failed, speaks pages about Sparta. That you're actually planning to try over something so ridiculous speaks volumes.
[/quote]

Thank you Pez


[quote name='Style #386' date='12 February 2010 - 01:39 AM' timestamp='1265956761' post='2177153']
So far as reasonable behaviour and discourse go, you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Crymson and rsox would not be pleased.

Or, alternatively, people on Sparta's side can settle with "lolegion" or "haha purplol" while people that didn't like Sparta anyway can counter with "lolsparta" [you people aren't very original with your insults].

Seriously though, do people really think one alliance would try to get away with a fake surrender? Chill out, and accept that this was almost certainly a miscommunication error and not some nefarious plot to accomplish... something [out-weirding NpO, perhaps?]

If Legion wants to fight, let them do it.
[/quote]

I'm glad to see our query got my point across. Alas we couldn't out weird the NpO this time



[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='12 February 2010 - 03:44 AM' timestamp='1265964266' post='2177307']
I will ask of you the same question....since Hubb said that Legion would not accept reps any more than 300 to 400 million ...THEN negotiated to 600 million...then WHITE PEACE was offered....why the bloody hell would ANYONE think there was anything else left to discuss? If they came to Sparta seeking peace, and in that discourse, got the best offer that they could possibly have gotten, and now are declining that offer....what does that say about them seeking it out in the 1st place? Seriously...there is ZERO chance for miscommunication if...you know...you actually WANT peace when you go seeking it. Perhaps, just maybe, Legion should sit in their bunkers and not approach peace...if...you know...its not what they want. But yeah...Sparta screwed up here...give me a break.

<3 my allies...burn Legion.
[/quote]

The Legion did not originally seek any peace terms, we were offered them and were brought to the table by MASH who were offered peace by Umbrella. The Legion never came looking for terms, it was purely an academic debate really

[Meer Republic]

I was not happy at all when I heard reps had been demanded from you Legion and did everything in my power to ensure the demand was dropped. White peace was offered and you have foolishly declined. After this performance from you I certainly won't be making the effort again you had your chance Legion and whatever the outcome of this now you have no one to blame but yourselves.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Meer Republic' date='12 February 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1265992787' post='2177709']
I was not happy at all when I heard reps had been demanded from you Legion and did everything in my power to ensure the demand was dropped. White peace was offered and you have foolishly declined. After this performance from you I certainly won't be making the effort again you had your chance Legion and whatever the outcome of this now you have no one to blame but yourselves.
[/quote]


Clearly understandable. I appreciate the work you put in