Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[Some-Guy]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='09 February 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1265731442' post='2170647']
Actually TOP government were under the impression that they had the right to make all of Karma's decisions for them, telling other alliance members to "know their place" and that they were the "big kids in the sandbox".
[/quote]

Are you quasi-quoting me there?

If so, you ain't doing a good job of it.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Some-Guy

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Krack' date='09 February 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1265738249' post='2170817']
When was the last time GOD said publicly "The Gramlins owe us for keeping you from getting rolled in December 2008." I don't believe I've ever seen them say it publicly. Contrast that with the former Gramlins leadership in this thread who have repeated the "Everybody owes us" mantra every ten posts or so since page 15.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, nobody owes anybody anything. The SuperFriends prevented Gramlins from getting rolled because it was in their best interests that the Gramlins not get destroyed. Gramlins participated in the Karma War because it was in the Gramlins best interests that the Karma side win. The difference is, you don't see some alliances' leadership claiming they are owed anything (even if it's just gratitude); while some of the former Citadel alliances' leadership repeat it constantly. It's tired.

Could the Gramlins have backed out of the Karma War when it started? Sure. But they would have broken their word that they gave in Nov 2008 when FARK promised to stick with the Gramlins despite pleas from other SuperFriends alliances to drop their treaty. The SuperFriends stuck by Gramlins when it was everything but politically expedient - they did this because the Gramlins promised to do the same if any of the other SFs alliances or MK, VE, Vanguard were attacked. Then flash forward 6 months and on the eve of war the Gramlins' MoFA was telling the SuperFriends leadership, (paraphrase) "You will do everything the way we want it, or we're bailing out and you're on your own."

Do I like Gramlins? Yes - then and now. But when you say I (or FARK, or anybody else in Karma) owes them anything because they helped out from the goodness of their hearts, you can stick it. There was a deal in place and it was explicit - "Are you in or are you out?". The Gramlins said they were "in". They could have backed out of Karma, but they would have broken their word. FARK never threatened to break its word (and as far as I know, nobody else involved in Karma ever did either).

Now if you were in another Citadel alliance at the time and got caught up in all this without knowledge of the discussions that were going on (or had taken place), I'm sorry, but that's poor communication between the Citadel alliances and not the fault of the other Karma alliances. At every turn, for at least six months before the Karma War, the other Karma alliances encouraged improved relations with the other Citadel alliances (and even tried to form the Bastion bloc to tie SuperFriends and the Citadel together - it was felt this would discourage any attempted aggression by One Vision), but my understanding is TOP nixed it. The SuperFriends (and Sparta) were trying to be friendly and open and TOP more or less shrugged its shoulders and said "we don't need new friends". Again, that's not my problem.

As I said earlier, it was a long time ago and the good guys won. If you regret that, so be it.
[/quote]

Can we finally drop the argument about Gremlins in Karma war please? I know Chill made a thread some weeks after to give people a chance to take a stab at him if they wished. If you werent able to bury the grudge after that, chances are its never gonna die.

[Mussolandia]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='09 February 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1265742076' post='2170910']
I think for you guys it should be changed to used car reviews since you'll be a lot better at them.
[/quote]

Wow, that's one we haven't heard before.

Beer reviews are retarded.

[avernite]

Krack, at what point was Grämlins at risk of being rolled, and by whom?

In November 2008, they were allied to multiple Continuum members, after all.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Banned' date='10 February 2010 - 03:59 AM' timestamp='1265738346' post='2170821']
I love this "pre-emptive strike" excuse. Here's the facts.

- C&G was not involved in the NpO - \m/ war, they had issued no declarations of war whatsoever.
- Had the We Dropped The Soap Coalition not declared aggressively on CnG, the entirety of that war would be over.
- Given the speed with which the NpO v. \m/ front cleared up, CnG would have never been involved.

So what really happened here, is that TOP and IRON suicided themselves and their friends and made an opportunistic move with the fact that Polaris seemed to be busy with other things to declare an aggressive and unprovoked war against C&G. This war is now biting them in the (bleep) and they want white peace and sit around and claim that they had some moral high ground in all of this, when the fact is, that CnG got mass rogued and if CnG aren't letting you off the hook so easily, good for them.
[/quote]
I think you're being a little selective here. You're forgetting the bit where the Emperor of NpO approved of the strike on CnG and neglected to mention to TOP that they were in peace negotiations with \m/. Two small but very important facts that you've glossed over, my son.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Krack' date='10 February 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1265734077' post='2170712']
When was the last time you thanked someone in GOD for pledging full support to Gramlins (and agreeing to defend them unconditionally, even though they hated them) when they were leaving tC and there was an excellent chance they'd get rolled if they were isolated?
[/quote]
What a load of old cobblers. Gre were still strongly tied to TOP and MHA (both Q alliances) when they left. They could not have been rolled.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Mussolandia' date='09 February 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1265744951' post='2170981']
Wow, that's one we haven't heard before.[/quote]
It's vintage, like an old corvette.

[quote]Beer reviews are retarded.
[/quote]
Then it will be all the more enjoyable to watch you choke some down.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[heggo]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='09 February 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1265748931' post='2171103']
Then it will be all the more enjoyable to watch you choke some down.
[/quote]
Wooooah, tough guy right here!

Edited February 9, 2010 by heggo

[helstrm]

I have nothing of value to add to this discussion however I have spent a lot of time reading through these threads over the last couple of days and as someone new to CN I can say without a doubt that I need a drink and it will have to be stronger than beer. I am so confused....

[terveis]

[quote name='avernite' date='09 February 2010 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1265745361' post='2170989']
Krack, at what point was Grämlins at risk of being rolled, and by whom?

In November 2008, they were allied to multiple Continuum members, after all.
[/quote]

This is something i would like to now. Even if NPO would of tried, at November 2008 they would of have to go through both MHA and TOP, and numerous other Continuum alliances, i really dont think they could of pulled it off, atleast not in a way that it would of made any sense to them. And this is with or without SF support.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='heggo' date='09 February 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1265749200' post='2171111']
Wooooah, tough guy right here!
[/quote]
Hardly, merely an amused spectator.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='09 February 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1265748782' post='2171096']
What a load of old cobblers. Gre were still strongly tied to TOP and MHA (both Q alliances) when they left. They could not have been rolled.
[/quote]

Dont you get it? It's only paranoia when TOP says it.

[TheyCallMeJeezy]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='09 February 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1265748570' post='2171086']
I think you're being a little selective here. You're forgetting the bit where the Emperor of NpO approved of the strike on CnG and neglected to mention to TOP that they were in peace negotiations with \m/. Two small but very important facts that you've glossed over, my son.
[/quote]
Look, this far out from the onset of the war I'd think you'd have finally gotten your facts straight, but alas, you prove me wrong. Don't act like we (NpO) were the deciding factor about TOP hitting CnG. They would have done so regardless. Also, peace "negotiations" were left open, there to be accepted whenever \m/ wanted. TOP knew this beforehand, as did everyone else.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='09 February 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1265741322' post='2170894']
And why wouldn't others resent that course of action, given who that treaty partner was and how they conducted themselves in that war?[/quote]
Why did you leave Fark, you still mad about something?

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Methrage' date='09 February 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1265750088' post='2171144']
Why did you leave Fark, you still mad about something?
[/quote]
You should probably be the last person to discuss why someone would leave an alliance.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='09 February 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1265750165' post='2171147']
You should probably be the last person to discuss why someone would leave an alliance.
[/quote]
I'm sure you have no idea what your talking about, but keep acting like you know everything in your isolated corner of the world hating on everyone.

[Mussolandia]

Hmm, I sense a really old joke coming, like a peace mode joke or an ODN joke. Come on Arcturus, I know you want to.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Methrage' date='09 February 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1265750932' post='2171175']
I'm sure you have no idea what your talking about, but keep acting like you know everything in your isolated corner of the world hating on everyone.
[/quote]
I resemble that remark!

[quote name=Mussolandia]
Hmm, I sense a really old joke coming, like a peace mode joke or an ODN joke. Come on Arcturus, I know you want to.
[/quote]
I'm older than either of those - which is a problem because my memory's going.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Krack]

[quote name='avernite' date='09 February 2010 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1265745361' post='2170989']
Krack, at what point was Grämlins at risk of being rolled, and by whom?

In November 2008, they were allied to multiple Continuum members, after all.
[/quote]

The SuperFriends were extremely concerned that the instant Gramlins quit the Continuum (which everyone knew was going to happen), they would be the next One Vision target. That NPO was secretly offering up Gramlins' spot in tC (they had put out feelers to both FARK and Ragnarok, if not others) while they were still in the bloc, made SuperFriends even more concerned that the goal was to separate the Citadel from SuperFriends, start a war between One Vision/SuperFriends and the Citadel and let SuperFriends serve as the nuke-eating shield. Of course, the opposite could have occurred too (tC vs SuperFriends) but most thought that because of (1) Gramlins' strained relationship within tC, (2) the SuperFriends' improved relationship and new treaties with NPO, and (3) that SuperFriends would be easier to dismantle post-Citadel (than the Citadel would be easier to dismantle post-SuperFriends), it was likelier that Gramlins would be the target.

Prior to this move, FARK was convinced the next tC/1V target would be VE (which would force SuperFriends to defend GOD in an unwinnable war, or cut them lose) or MK (which would force SuperFriends to defend Ragnarok in an unwinnable war, or cut them lose). Personally, I always thought the target was going to be MK, even after Gramlins made it known they were cutting ties with tC, but if I had to estimate, I'd say most of the SuperFriends leadership became convinced Gramlins would be the target. Turns out the target was VE (through a BS CB on OV).

Regardless, what is important to know is, fully believing Gramlins was going to be the target, SuperFriends (including GOD who hated them) pledged to defend them when FARK came to the Gramlins defense through their MDP. I say again, believing they were going to be the target and believing they would probably lose, the SuperFriends alliances pledged to defend Gramlins against tC/1V. At this point, VE was also on-board (although upset with FARK), Sparta was showing it was somewhat receptive to being involved, and nobody knew where MK stood (that C&G side was not approached until much, much later as far as I know). MHA and NATO were tied to the group via treaty, but nobody in FARK trusted NATO to actually honor their MDP and, while Gramlins was adamant that MHA would defend them, at that point, FARK thought it was a 50/50 chance.

This was the infancy of what became Karma.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Krack

[Epik High]

So seems like GOD did something pretty cool for Gramlins... which must mean that, uhh, TOP should be rolled! What's this thread about again?

[Heft]

Gramlins was never in any serious danger of being attacked. They managed to piss off a good number of people, many of whom certainly would have liked to see them hit, but it was never a serious plan. They were certainly never a One Vision target, that makes even less sense.

The idea that VE was ever a target, with possible exception of directly before Karma, is even more absurd.

It is reassuring that the paranoia of those days wasn't limited to just Q, though.

[Krack]

[quote name='Heft' date='09 February 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1265751896' post='2171203']
Gramlins was never in any serious danger of being attacked. They managed to piss off a good number of people, many of whom certainly would have liked to see them hit, but it was never a serious plan. They were certainly never a One Vision target, that makes even less sense.

The idea that VE was ever a target, with possible exception of directly before Karma, is even more absurd.

It is reassuring that the paranoia of those days wasn't limited to just Q, though.
[/quote]

Everything you say may be true. But the exact same scenario had just happened three months earlier to Polar, who had an unbreakable, never ending (whatever term was being used at the time) bond with NPO and was a longtime member of the One Vision until right before everyone turned on them and gave them a beatdown. To suggest an attack on Gramlins was impossible or unthinkable after they left tC is laughable. If it wasn't discussed or planned, I take you at your word, but frankly the track record of the alliances involved is terrible - this was completely in the realm of possibility in the post-"Kicking Polar out of 1V and beating on them" Planet Bob.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Krack

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Krack' date='09 February 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1265751365' post='2171184']
[words]
[/quote]
Wait...I thought TOP and IRON were the paranoid ones...

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Krack' date='09 February 2010 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1265752413' post='2171216']
Everything you say may be true. But the exact same scenario had just happened three months earlier to Polar, who had an unbreakable, never ending (whatever term was being used at the time) bond with NPO and was a longtime member of the One Vision until right before everyone turned on them and gave them a beatdown. To suggest an attack on Gramlins was impossible or unthinkable after they left tC is laughable. If it wasn't discussed or planned, I take you at your word, but frankly the track record of the alliances involved is terrible - this was completely in the realm of possibility in the post-"Kicking Polar out of 1V and beating on them" Planet Bob.
[/quote]

Maybe it looked like it was from the outside, but Gremlins itself were never afraid of an actual attack. I mean c'mon... NPO attacking one of the centerpieces of the treaty web out of nowhere? Thats just not very strategically sound.

Also, you are connecting two issues that werent directly tied to each other. The Polar war was brought foward by TOP and Gremlins mostly. Pacifica only had to cancel the OoO.

Why do we need to dig up every little piece of history again?

Edited February 9, 2010 by HellAngel

[Krack]

[quote name='Sulmar' date='09 February 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1265752611' post='2171225']
Wait...I thought TOP and IRON were the paranoid ones...
[/quote]

The funny thing is, I just spent the better part of several posts explaining to you how Karma formed (and why you and your allies are in the situation you are) and your first response is that it's paranoid. Paranoid or not, it's the thinking that led to you being on the wrong end of the War web.