Carthage Declaration of...

[Quinoa Rex]

I've read books, read documentaries and done independent research.

A documentary is a film, and I have a nagging feeling that your 'independent research' involves looking at community-edited sources that tend to be questionably factual.

That aside, I hope ODN crushes you.

[JT Jag]

I welcome any of you to challenge me on the history of the Punic Wars. I've read books, read documentaries and done independent research. You guys coming on here going, "You don't know the history!" when I've spent a good deal researching the Punic Wars and reading about them is just a masquerade to make my OP seem like a myth. But you know what? It wasn't. It's as real as my war declarations on the ODN.

Now go on, shoo. Hasdrubal Barca has need of my assistance in the third wall.

Carthago delenda est

Diripio civis quod sal salis orbis terrarum

[General Ozujsko]

Crack some skulls, ODN!

o/ CnG

[Banksy]

AUT- I just realised- we appear to be organising a trade circle for you on our boards- is it okay if we cut that now?

[Tobistus]

Much love Carthage.

[Jamacus]

Good luck. You'll need it.

[BloodFury]

I welcome any of you to challenge me on the history of the Punic Wars. I've read books, read documentaries and done independent research. You guys coming on here going, "You don't know the history!" when I've spent a good deal researching the Punic Wars and reading about them is just a masquerade to make my OP seem like a myth. But you know what? It wasn't. It's as real as my war declarations on the ODN.

Now go on, shoo. Hasdrubal Barca has need of my assistance in the third wall.

It was Scipio, Not Scipii. They asked for 300 Children of "Well-Born" which means nobility to be surrendered as hostages to Rome. Rome never demanded control of the city, they demanded that the Carthaginians move ten miles in land and BURN the city, not hand it over. Rome could care less for control of the city. Carthage was not wealthy or grand, in fact it was a broken city state after The Second Punic War. They had just gotten done with paying back their debt to Rome 2 years prior to war breaking out. The only thing they wanted Carthage for was its rich farm lands, not its city.

As for any thought of Carthage causing heavy damage to Roman Soldiers, records have proven a huge difference in forces lost, where the Romans suffered far fewer causalities than Carthage did. And as for your statement that all they could do was burn the city down, well the Roman forces took the city before burning it so they didn't do it because the defenders were too fierce, they did it because that is what most armies did at the time was burn the city. Plus with them having wanted Carthage to burn it down, well they only did what Carthage should of done.

So please, you haven't really studied your history at all. That is the only thing that bothered me about your post. I think it is great that you are supporting an ally, however I do not agree with falsely throwing around history as a pretext to use in your Declaration.

Edit: The only thing you seem to have gotten right was the fact that they handed over their weapons and armor.

Edited January 30, 2010 by BloodFury

[Thomas Jackson]

I welcome any of you to challenge me on the history of the Punic Wars. I've read books, read documentaries and done independent research. You guys coming on here going, "You don't know the history!" when I've spent a good deal researching the Punic Wars and reading about them is just a masquerade to make my OP seem like a myth. But you know what? It wasn't. It's as real as my war declarations on the ODN.

Now go on, shoo. Hasdrubal Barca has need of my assistance in the third wall.

Read: I did my research on Wikipedia.

[Venizelos]

have fun with the aut for us ODN

[Unholy]

'Scipii' was the patrician family that the general, Cornelius Scipio (Africanus) came from. Branch of the Cornelia family. Scipio was a general during the Second Punic War, so he didn't burn the city. That wasn't until the Third Punic war.

I'd go further, but BloodFury already covered it all.

[The AUT]

It was Scipio, Not Scipii. They asked for 300 Children of "Well-Born" which means nobility to be surrendered as hostages to Rome. Rome never demanded control of the city, they demanded that the Carthaginians move ten miles in land and BURN the city, not hand it over. Rome could care less for control of the city. Carthage was not wealthy or grand, in fact it was a broken city state after The Second Punic War. They had just gotten done with paying back their debt to Rome 2 years prior to war breaking out. The only thing they wanted Carthage for was its rich farm lands, not its city.

As for any thought of Carthage causing heavy damage to Roman Soldiers, records have proven a huge difference in forces lost, where the Romans suffered far fewer causalities than Carthage did. And as for your statement that all they could do was burn the city down, well the Roman forces took the city before burning it so they didn't do it because the defenders were too fierce, they did it because that is what most armies did at the time was burn the city. Plus with them having wanted Carthage to burn it down, well they only did what Carthage should of done.

So please, you haven't really studied your history at all. That is the only thing that bothered me about your post. I think it is great that you are supporting an ally, however I do not agree with falsely throwing around history as a pretext to use in your Declaration.

Edit: The only thing you seem to have gotten right was the fact that they handed over their weapons and armor.

Valiant attempt at revision mon ami!

The Romans demanded that Carthage surrender the city. Carthage restored trade with many empires and held a strong commercial network to Sicily, the Ptolemaic Empires of Egypt and other Greek city states particularly the Phoecians.

This made the Romans worried and they felt threatened. Why else would they make such ridiculous demands if not for their security and fear? They had an agenda, and carried it out. And the Romans never penetrated the Citadel of Melqart. Instead they opted to burn the city instead of taking more losses.

AUT- I just realised- we appear to be organising a trade circle for you on our boards- is it okay if we cut that now?

You guys incessantly bugged me about trading with your nations and now want to drop the trade circle, heh. I had a loosely constructed network of trades that seemed to be working fine. It's up to you guys. It takes more than a bunch of icons next to a trade resources cross section to keep me from doing what I'm doing. For you guys saying I'm so insignificant, you seem to be quite worried about me.

Edited January 30, 2010 by The AUT

[Cotillion]

Just a tiny bit out of my range. Oh, AUT, why do you tease me so?

[BloodFury]

Valiant attempt at revision mon ami!

The Romans demanded that Carthage surrender the city. Carthage restored trade with many empires and held a strong commercial network to Sicily, the Ptolemaic Empires of Egypt and other Greek city states particularly the Phoecians.

This made the Romans worried and they felt threatened. Why else would they make such ridiculous demands if not for their security and fear? They had an agenda, and carried it out. And the Romans never penetrated the Citadel of Melqart. Instead they opted to burn the city instead of taking more losses.

The Terms were, 300 Children of Carthaginian Nobility, Surrender of all Weapons and Armor, and to move inland 10 miles and burn the city of Carthage. Nothing about surrendering it. If Rome had wanted Carthage that badly, they would of never burned the city. As for restoring trade with other's in the ancient world it does not make them rich and powerful. Carthage was poor from war reparations, as well as the fact that it lost MOST of its foreign colonies that it relied heavily upon to make money with trading. In that day and age, it was impossible to rebuild any wealth in 2 years that you lost from war. The only real wealth that Carthage had was its fertile lands that surrounded Carthage for farming, which Rome wanted badly.

Besides, The Numidian Armies crushed the fledgling Carthage army that tried to stop them, and as for the "losses", the Romans only suffered 17,000~ through the whole war where Carthage lost 62,000. Rome attacked with a smaller force than the city defended with. Laid siege for 3 years which was pretty standard at the time to lay long sieges against well fortified cities. The fact of the matter still remains is that the citadel was surrounded after the walls were breached, then was surrendered some time later to Roman forces. It was AFTER the surrender of the citadel that the Roman forces burned the city under orders of the Senate. They never wanted the city.

[The AUT]

You're contradicting yourself. To burn the city but not surrender, you realize the city itself was worth the entire republic right? You don't just let your homes be burnt just to keep sovereignty, it's very apparent Rome wanted destruction of the civilization itself.

Carthage still did rebound well. And the Numidians under Sfax was driven back by Hasdrubal. However the Romans had a treaty with the Numidians and used that as their excuse to destroy Carthage because of their paranoia. And the citadel was never taken, again. The city was burnt before the Romans pursued control of the entire city. So of course many will die. 17,000 soldiers is a heavy loss, it's nothing minor. Considering the city was defended by old men, women, children and a select few able bodied men.

Those that survived were killed resulting in the first genocide in history. The complete destruction of a great civilization, and people. We are resilient however, no matter how this war pans out we're here to stay.

Edited January 30, 2010 by The AUT

[Bad JuJu]

Thank god this war isn't dying down. I was pretty worried after last night.

[Lennox]

Have fun carthage.

[Banksy]

Just a tiny bit out of my range. Oh, AUT, why do you tease me so?

Selling off a bit of infra *must* be worth it

[BloodFury]

I don't see how I am contradicting myself. I said that the terms were to burn the city, and I have stuck with that argument. You have stuck with the argument that they wanted the surrender. There is no contradiction. However a cities value is only as much as you can tax it as a foreign conquerer. And to get taxes from a people that hate you is not an easy task, so it didn't have huge value.

The Numidians may have been pushed back, and that may have been the reasons why Rome pushed for war, however the fact remains that Carthage didn't leave the city and burn it as Rome had asked, and that was the reason they went in for. All of the terms that they gave Carthage was a way to try and goad them into war. The Third Attempt Worked.

However, The Citadel WAS surrendered prior to burning the city.

Now before I start to sound like a broken record I am going to end this argument. The great thing about history is that no two people will agree 100% of the time because we were not there and many different people formulate different theories on how things went down based on how they perceived what ancient texts have said about a situation.

Now Good Night, and Good Luck with your war.

[The AUT]

Thanks and goodnight. I will enjoy the war.

[bigdaddychacha]

We've got people DOWing us in protest of tech raids that we neither participated in nor defended.

We've got people calling us evil for KARMA.

And then we've got some people who just plain don't like us and make no bones about it with their bandwaggoning (in a war already notably lacking any coherent CBs from one side) and getting patted on the back from people who don't have much better reasons for wanting to war us.

Yeesh. I can't wait to get into this in a big way.

Furthermore, don't forget that we must destroy Carthage!

There, happy?

[The AUT]

We've got people DOWing us in protest of tech raids that we neither participated in nor defended.

We've got people calling us evil for KARMA.

And then we've got some people who just plain don't like us and make no bones about it with their bandwaggoning (in a war already notably lacking any coherent CBs from one side) and getting patted on the back from people who don't have much better reasons for wanting to war us.

Yeesh. I can't wait to get into this in a big way.

Furthermore, don't forget that we must destroy Carthage!

There, happy?

...

Try coming out of peace mode ever thought of that?

[bigdaddychacha]

...

Try coming out of peace mode ever thought of that?

Just following orders, I'll be out of peace mode and in the fight soon enough...besides, it was the other side who told us all a few weeks ago: this is strategy, not cowardice!

Also, folks, don't forget about Carthage..!

[Aeternos Astramora]

Nice wagon you got there

lolwut? You can't bandwagon on the side with half as much NS.

[President S O]

Just following orders, I'll be out of peace mode and in the fight soon enough...besides, it was the other side who told us all a few weeks ago: this is strategy, not cowardice!

Also, folks, don't forget about Carthage..!

Funny. Your side slammed the use of this strategy for the weeks following the "TPF War". And now you use it...

[Mathias]

But AUT, I thought you were all talk. Why the sudden change in policy?