An Announcement from Zero Hour

[Augustus Autumn]

No one knew about the plan or had an inkling outside of TPF save for Shurukian. Otherwise ZH's purpose would have come to light long ago, not 6 months after it's creation, and only due to the fact that we outed ourselves.

I'm going to go ahead and correct you here - I found out in July (I'm going to assume you're bright enough to figure out how). But keep on telling yourselves OpSec was solid. It tickles me.

[Tulafaras]

LOL. The next time your girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse/SO break up with you, tell all your friends that it doesn't count, b/c you weren't the one breaking up. It didn't end, I swear.

/facepalm....

great job replying to my arguments. It's almost as if you picked a post apart to reply to a single line.

Nice try for the failed analogy as well, we are really getting somewhere here.

Now since you've started the analogy game i'll reply in kind:

Scenario: during a rather large war with clearly defined fronts your military commander orders a number of his soldiers to do a black ops operation. The target of this operation is a state on the other side of this conflict, but geographically and politically far removed from your enemies (e.g. Italy ordering such an operation against China in WW2). While your operation is running your targeted nation declares peace and leaves the battlefield. The do not attack you, or even make demands of you they simply leave. Do you still leave the operation as it is? Because that is exactly what you did. You did not bother to call it off, you did not bother to confirm it had been stopped if a communication breakdown has occured between your operatives and yourselve.

[Hyperbad]

Yes, I really have to agree with this as there are too many analogies that can be spun in multiple directions. I guess my main issue was what was attempted. I don't consider it as a normal act of war. This wasn't an attempt to beat an alliance into submitting. This was an attempt to completely destroy an alliance. They wanted them to disband which is something I don't like.

Or cause mass defections resulting in a greatly reduced capacity for war.

[James Saams]

This is actually closer to a terrorist attack... and planning a terrorist attack...

But see, during wartime this is not an act of terrorism, but an act of war.

Is Hiroshima considered a terrorist attack? Not by most. <--( Analogy to TPF's attempt to destroy someone[DURING WAR])

Does the United States declare war on North Korea for building nuclear weapons that are meant to be used? No. <--(analogy to someone[athens] declaring on someone for thinking about doing something)

So why on planet Bob, should Athens declare war on someone, for an act of war that occurred in a previous war? I would think that the initial act of war would have been sorted out by the perpetrators loss of the original conflict.

[Fantastico]

This man gets it.

TPF, by not disclosing to anyone, opened the can of worms. How can you expect anyone to trust you don't have other plans going on that haven't been found out? There is no way. The only way to ensure that this won't happen again is to make sure there is a sufficient deterrent.

Good point

It makes it tough for anyone trying to weigh this to come down strongly on TPF's side. With some of the TPF defenders outright denying that Operation Zero Hour even happened beyond being a joke and the other half calling it part of the war and that it ended before the war was over, it makes sympathy with their position a little tough.

Above all, I have yet to see any dedicated post indicating any sense of regret or remorse.

I could understand that if this was FAN, but not here. Well, one of their gov said he was not sure how he felt about the plan as a tool of war at the end of one of his posts. I think that was in another thread.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Fantastico

[bigwoody]

Calling My Shot:

Documents of surrender will now have a "Moment of Truth" clause requiring the disclosure of any clandestine operations that may have taken place during war.

(Successful, Unsuccessful, In Progress, Aborted, Planned, Thought Of, w/e, its all CB)

Edited December 29, 2009 by bigwoody

[Heft]

I would just like to point that I've stated on multiple occasions in the past that analogies are always, invariability, terrible ideas in these sorts of situations. So it's all your faults for not listening to me. Silly, silly people.

[Tulafaras]

But see, during wartime this is not an act of terrorism, but an act of war.

Is Hiroshima considered a terrorist attack? Not by most. <--( Analogy to TPF's attempt to destroy someone[DURING WAR])

Does the United States declare war on North Korea for building nuclear weapons that are meant to be used? No. <--(analogy to someone[athens] declaring on someone for thinking about doing something)

So why on planet Bob, should Athens declare war on someone, for an act of war that occurred in a previous war? I would think that the initial act of war would have been sorted out by the perpetrators loss of the original conflict.

Aside from the fact the we do not use OOC examples in an IC board, could you maybe at least use some which make sense? Athens wasn't engaged with TPF so why should them commisioning terrorist attacks (if you want to call it that, i'd use acts of sabotage, subversion and espionage) against them?

That is a rather major point of the CB you know? If this had been commited against PC or any other alliance actively fighting TPF during Karma i wouldn't agree with the CB either since they have paid their dues for that war already.

[The Big Bad]

Hi TBB. I urge you to read the OP. It shows the hostilities didn't start until after we already got the protectorate.

Pro tip. Read the OP and then respond.

It tells me that ZH cancled the mission two days before the war ended after the two sides became hostile. So just what other than talk about it did ZH do to Athens for TPF?

[tamerlane]

Oh I can not wait for Archon to reveal every single time he has taked about an idea or another alliance. Other wise how can we ever trust you? Are you kidding me? You think people should now reveal ideas they have had but, never acted on? Planet Bob now home to the thought police. At least you agree TPF did not actualy do anything other than talk.

Yes, because ZH was just a thought in someone's mind..... oh wait, they actually became an alliance. Obviously it was just a thought. Good one though, I almost thought you were trying to tell me what I meant.

[YohanElus]

It tells me that ZH cancled the mission two days before the war ended after the two sides became hostile. So just what other than talk about it did ZH do to Athens for TPF?

I'm not talking about the end of the war at all TBB.

You said

"Except they did not do it for TPF, as they were hostile to each other. Kind of a common sense thing, if the alliance you were with is now hostile you go their enemies for protection."

Which tells me you think we got the protectorate with Athens to escape from TPF because we were at odds with them.

The OP, which I told you to go back to shows when we got the protectorate, we were on good terms with TPF.

[The Big Bad]

Yes, because ZH was just a thought in someone's mind..... oh wait, they actually became an alliance. Obviously it was just a thought. Good one though, I almost thought you were trying to tell me what I meant.

ZH will also tell you the op was cancled before the war ended, its in the OP. So why is TPF being attacked again?

[OneBallMan]

Above all, I have yet to see any dedicated post indicating any sense of regret or remorse.

Regrets? I've had a few. The bottom line issue is whether you believe that clandestine, and covert ops are a legitimate tactic of war. The next line is whether you believe, like we did in TPF, that we were at war with all of the Karmites, and not simply those that were generous and kind enough to DoW us, (we had many, many alliance interlopers who were on the Karma side who just randomly attacked us). Sincerely, we saw ourselves that way.

So, if you think that it is legitimate to plan and carry out these wars in wartime, (still on the fence on that one, personally) and your mindset does not afford you the luxury of cherry picking those aligned against you, well there isn't much room for remorse or apologies.

That isn't an admission of anything from a formal perspective (I do not speak for TPF in any capacity, unless I am asked to), but a response to your fair query.

[Hyperbad]

I apparently missed this portion in a previous reply and seeing as how a number of others have posted since then, I decided not to edit my previous post.

The initiative to make sure that nothing is happening should not land on Athens, but on TPF, who committed the crimes.

The use of the word crime is a very wise choice for putting a much more negative spin on their act. Unfortunately it doesn't fit the situation for there is no actual code of criminal conduct. Everything is done by the hip. I suppose it is a crime in Athens' eyes though.

I also dislike the term "should" as its use is always with the presumption of something. I'll give it a try though.

Should any alliance rely on others to behave in a way that most benefits them when the two parties are on opposing sides of a war?

Edit: Leaving work, on the way home.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Hyperbad

[James Saams]

DUN DUN DUN THE ROFLCOPTOR DROPPED A LOLBOMB.

I find this quite amusing and all, but I've had enough laughs for the night. Thank you for the entertainment, and I hope to see your declaration on me in the near future

[Felix von Agnu]

I'm not talking about the end of the war at all TBB.

You said

"Except they did not do it for TPF, as they were hostile to each other. Kind of a common sense thing, if the alliance you were with is now hostile you go their enemies for protection."

Which tells me you think we got the protectorate with Athens to escape from TPF because we were at odds with them.

The OP, which I told you to go back to shows when we got the protectorate, we were on good terms with TPF.

I was always told something different regarding the protectorate. I'm kind of disappointed people I called friends lied to me. If its not you, it's someone else. =\

Edit for clarification.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Felix von Agnu

[juslen]

Great.. both sides are starting to make sense now. Maybe we should just let TPF and Athens have it out 1 vs 1 huh?

[tamerlane]

ZH will also tell you the op was cancled before the war ended, its in the OP. So why is TPF being attacked again?

I thought they had only thought up this plan but never acted on it?

Edited December 29, 2009 by tamerlane

[The Big Bad]

I'm not talking about the end of the war at all TBB.

You said

"Except they did not do it for TPF, as they were hostile to each other. Kind of a common sense thing, if the alliance you were with is now hostile you go their enemies for protection."

Which tells me you think we got the protectorate with Athens to escape from TPF because we were at odds with them.

The OP, which I told you to go back to shows when we got the protectorate, we were on good terms with TPF.

ZH was talked about being created before the war ever happened is that not true? The strongest claim I see you making is that TPF made ZH form and go to Athens and then before the Karma war ended any plot to harm Athens had already ended because of hostilities. So why is TPF being attacked again? For plotting something during a war that never happened (other than ZH forming) nor was talked about after the war?

Edited December 29, 2009 by The Big Bad

[malazar]

Most TPF membership wasn't in the know, all original ZH membership was in the know.

The first part of that statement may be true, but the second part of your statement is not true unless you are only counting the original two members. In another thread, the third member of the alliance and former minister of internal affairs knew nothing of the plan. I was the sixth member and didn't learn of this until the rest of the world did yesterday. I would estimate that maybe 5 or 6 members total knew about it prior to this week. Those involved are already discussed in the OP, so refer to those logs.

[Trigger]

ZH was talked about being created before the war ever happened is that not true? The strongest claim I see you making is that TPF made ZH form and go to Athens and then before the Karma war ended any plot to harm Athens had already ended because of hostilities. So why is TPF being attacked again? For plotting something during a war that never happened (other than ZH forming) nor was talked about after the war?

TBB, can you clarify for me here. You're saying that ZH was discussed BEFORE the war. It's been stated that ZH was formed for the purpose of infiltrating Athens. Are you saying that the infiltration plans started before the war or am I missing something else?

[Tulafaras]

I apparently missed this portion in a previous reply and seeing as how a number of others have posted since then, I decided not to edit my previous post.

The use of the word crime is a very wise choice for putting a much more negative spin on their act. Unfortunately it doesn't fit the situation for there is no actual code of criminal conduct. Everything is done by the hip. I suppose it is a crime in Athens' eyes though.

I also dislike the term "should" as its use is always with the presumption of something. I'll give it a try though.

Should any alliance rely on others to behave in a way that most benefits them when the two parties are on opposing sides of a war?

Edit: Leaving work, on the way home.

Not sure what exactly you are referring to but in my book conspiring to sabotage an alliance comes under the heading of crime.

If the part where you disagree is the attempted part, then it is my sad duty to inform you that success does not have anything to do with the terminology of the word crime. Otherwise we wouldn't have such nice phrases as "attempted murder" in front of a judge.

You are correct that on Planet Bob we do not have a code of laws which is enforced by a higher authority. We have always relied on individual alliances to make up their own "laws" in regards to what they are willing to accept as a casus belli or not.

In this context it seems pretty clear that Athens considers attempted sabotage/subversion a crime. Wether the world of CN accepts this in the end or not is something history will have to clear up.

[IronMan17]

This thread has made ZH even more stupid. Before this they were stupid, this thread just made me laugh and glad that I was right back than, and more right now.

[Rush Sykes]

The only reason anything was ever thought of was strictly because Athens et all told NPO they would never get peace.

Im only halfway into this thread, and its probably already been pointed out....but this is complete, and I mean COMPLETE BS.

[tamerlane]

This thread has made ZH even more stupid. Before this they were stupid, this thread just made me laugh and glad that I was right back than, and more right now.

I was really moved by this post.