The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[WarriorConcept]

I was pointing my finger at \m/ and GOD. RoK and Athens are the alliances who were the subject of the alleged CB, at least, and definitely possess sufficient force to take care of TPF on their own.

\m/ and GOD were needed to hit TPF before more of them could get to peace mode as the timetable was set for the following day.

Do try to keep up though

It's already been made clear that ZH was not at any point working under the direction and control of mhawk. Even in the logs posted by Athens, they are an independent alliance cooperating with mhawk's idea.

Do you know what a sleeper cell is? The whole plan was mhawk's from the start.

Well, there was an OOC argument between mhawk and Ayrrie the day before ZH revealed the plan. Looks like the OOC argument led to an IC plan from where I'm sitting. Only that IC plan runs more along the lines of "Get mhawk."

Are you saying ZH falsified the logs and mhawk is just going along with it and not calling them fake?

[tamerlane]

I count spying and using nukes as equally valid methods of conducting a war. Feel free to disagree. If the spies weren't removed, then have at them.

Think what you may but this issue boils down to whether you are willing to accept the consequences dealt by those who disagree with your feelings. Also, are you talking about the in-game feature of spying? Because thats not the issue here.

[WarriorConcept]

There's a reason why many alliances halt recruiting and in many cases halt accepting new members during times of war. It's because of this very possibility.

Except this was an alliance trying to become a protectorate, not people joining.

Keep trying

Edited December 27, 2009 by WarriorConcept

[SpoiL]

Considering they weren't at war, your whole argument is null.

Though the rest might be, I don't consider that as legit. TPF was at war with FoB, GR, and MK. The only reason DoW's directly between Athens and TPF weren't made was because that base was covered already.

C&G Article II

We pledge mutual defense AND aggression in times of conflict, doing so with the utmost trust in each others motives and reasoning. We live as one, and fight as one.

MK DoW on TPF.

Regardless, whether or not you consider TPF to have been at war with Athens is moot if TPF didn't pull out after peace was negotiated. So0 carry on, nothing to see here.

[Chickenzilla]

Imagine this: six months after VietFAN is over, MHA discovers that FAN had been spying on them while VietFAN was taking place. Then MHA decides to DoW FAN.

If Athens had discovered the plan when it was active, they'd have had a good CB. They don't now. Otherwise, all large wars become eternal, because people always plot against their enemies and commit acts of war in a great war situation.

No, they considered infiltrating an alliance and destroying it from the inside.

FAN was openly trying to destroy all those alliances. The other alliance's knew about it. They freed FAN from war. Since then, FAN has not been openly plotting against those alliances, and if they are secretly planning anything, no evidience to date has been discovered. If it was discovered that FAN made a plan just after they recieved white peace to try to splinter alliances, I am sure that said alliances would move for war on the spot.

[gstills22]

TPF o/

[Doitzel]

Regardless, whether or not you consider TPF to have been at war with Athens is moot if TPF didn't pull out after peace was negotiated. So0 carry on, nothing to see here.

There's no way to know, see, because TPF didn't tell anyone when they surrendered that they'd put this sort of plan into action. What it comes down to is whether you trust the word of an alliance that schemed to send in sleeper cells to bring you down from within and then never came clean about it, never mentioned ceasing the operations, and never concluded a surrender with those actions accounted for. At this point I'd say that [00:32] <mhawk> [...TPF]'s word means nothing .

[potato]

Though the rest might be, I don't consider that as legit. TPF was at war with FoB, GR, and MK. The only reason DoW's directly between Athens and TPF weren't made was because that base was covered already.

MK DoW on TPF.

Regardless, whether or not you consider TPF to have been at war with Athens is moot if TPF didn't pull out after peace was negotiated. So0 carry on, nothing to see here.

If you're going to go through that silly route, Athens didn't sign TPF's surrender terms so they are, technically, still at war.

[WarriorConcept]

Though the rest might be, I don't consider that as legit. TPF was at war with FoB, GR, and MK. The only reason DoW's directly between Athens and TPF weren't made was because that base was covered already.

So why'd they bother to DoW both GR and MK?

Regardless, whether or not you consider TPF to have been at war with Athens is moot if TPF didn't pull out after peace was negotiated. So0 carry on, nothing to see here.

When did they cancel the plan against Athens, the alliance whom they actually weren't fighting and wouldn't be setting their surrender terms?

[tamerlane]

Though the rest might be, I don't consider that as legit. TPF was at war with FoB, GR, and MK. The only reason DoW's directly between Athens and TPF weren't made was because that base was covered already.

MK DoW on TPF.

Regardless, whether or not you consider TPF to have been at war with Athens is moot if TPF didn't pull out after peace was negotiated. So0 carry on, nothing to see here.

Whether they were at war or not is irrelevant. The nature of the plans were highly unorthodox and this community has shown on multiple occasions that it does not tolerate spying, that also counts during times of war. FAN got crap for it, TPF is getting crap for it, anyone else who wants to send spies into another alliance or, even worse, use spies to dismantle an alliance, can go ahead in risk it but this type of action comes with serious consequences.

[CaptainImpavid]

There's a reason why many alliances halt recruiting and in many cases halt accepting new members during times of war. It's because of this very possibility.

As I think has already been mentioned, this was a case of treaty arrangements rather than new members, which also are often delayed in times of war, not for security or other reasons but usually because the parties are generally pretty busy elsewhere.

That said, are you implying basically that "Everyone does it, that's why we're more careful in wartime, so if ROK and Athens weren't careful, it is their own fault?"

Because yeah that won't fly.

The biggest obstacle to an effective defense of TPF is TPF itself. Reading the DoWs my first thought wasn't "Wow" or "What was the proof" or anything else, it was "well that isn't surprising."

TPF: Honor When Convenient

[deathcat]

And you had earned that respect. When I was LHE, you were on a short list (very short, I hate everyone) of alliances to think about when the thought of a treaty occurs. You threw that respect out by spitting at one of our closest allies' face.

But dear Potato.. the thing is.. the CB is false (it was a discussion that didn't go to fruition. ZH formed during war and cut contact with us due to several reasons: out of char differences with mhawk and ZH, ZH liking their new protectors and a lack of resolve from our end and ZH. I don't know the timeline but there was a definite bad break from former TPFers forming ZH and mhawk. I remain friends with both ZHers OOC and IC as well as my friends and alliancemates in TPF. I hope to see this rift close soon.. but there has to be a very conserted effort to bring both sides together. As much as we disliked Athens' retoric during the Karma War.. We had no intentions of starting a war with them or going forward with any grudges...

We still like the MK alliance and hopefully after all is said and done, you can see our true nature and give us a chance to become better friends. Either way, despite the twist of events that led us here, I still hope that both sides can come together and get past this.

oo/ TPF

oo/ MK (yes MK.. deal with it)

[Merrie Melodies]

As I think has already been mentioned, this was a case of treaty arrangements rather than new members, which also are often delayed in times of war, not for security or other reasons but usually because the parties are generally pretty busy elsewhere.

That said, are you implying basically that "Everyone does it, that's why we're more careful in wartime, so if ROK and Athens weren't careful, it is their own fault?"

Because yeah that won't fly.

The biggest obstacle to an effective defense of TPF is TPF itself. Reading the DoWs my first thought wasn't "Wow" or "What was the proof" or anything else, it was "well that isn't surprising."

TPF: Honor When Convenient

I wouldn't go as far as attacking their honor, I as a long time TPF hater I actually applauded their actions in Karma and gained some respect for them. More so I don't think less of them over this incident, they messed up by assuming something they put in motion (a really big something) simply faded away. Had they considered the ramifications of those actions I am sure they would have dealt with them, they are paying the price for a horrible oversight.

Edit: missing words and things.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Merrie Melodies

[WarriorConcept]

But dear Potato.. the thing is.. the CB is false (it was a discussion that didn't go to fruition. ZH formed during war and cut contact with us due to several reasons: out of char differences with mhawk and ZH, ZH liking their new protectors and a lack of resolve from our end and ZH. I don't know the timeline but there was a definite bad break from former TPFers forming ZH and mhawk. I remain friends with both ZHers OOC and IC as well as my friends and alliancemates in TPF. I hope to see this rift close soon.. but there has to be a very conserted effort to bring both sides together. As much as we disliked Athens' retoric during the Karma War.. We had no intentions of starting a war with them or going forward with any grudges...

We still like the MK alliance and hopefully after all is said and done, you can see our true nature and give us a chance to become better friends. Either way, despite the twist of events that led us here, I still hope that both sides can come together and get past this.

oo/ TPF

oo/ MK (yes MK.. deal with it)

Are you saying all the logs are false, something which not even mhawk has done?

[Aeternos Astramora]

We ask all our allies to support us militarily in this defense and any mediators to talk to the alliances that have attacked TPF.

Well, there's no better way to ensure your goals are shattered than by dooming your allies to a curbstomp by two blocs, probably three if Frostbite jumps in in response to other declarations.

[Acca Dacca]

I wouldn't go as far as attacking their honor, I as a long time TPF hater actually applauded their actions in Karma and gained some respect for them. More so I don't think less of them over this incident, they messed up by assuming they put in motion (a really big something) simply faded away. Had they considered the ramifications of those actions I am sure they would have dealt with them, they are paying the price for a horrible oversight.

Well said.

Good Luck TPF and allies.

[Merrie Melodies]

Well, there's no better way to ensure your goals are shattered than by dooming your allies to a curbstomp by two blocs, probably three if Frostbite jumps in in response to other declarations.

Yeah, damn I would have keyed more on the diplomacy part if I was in his shoes. If ever there was a situation where a good frank diplomatic sit down could have bore fruit, this would be it.

[CaptainImpavid]

I wouldn't go as far as attacking their honor, I as a long time TPF hater I actually applauded their actions in Karma and gained some respect for them. More so I don't think less of them over this incident, they messed up by assuming something they put in motion (a really big something) simply faded away. Had they considered the ramifications of those actions I am sure they would have dealt with them, they are paying the price for a horrible oversight.

Edit: missing words and things.

One instance of nobility does not do much to obviate a tradition of dishonor, deception, and opportunism dating back to the parent alliances that TPF was founded from, especially when evidence comes to light since then that demonstrate that single act was as unique as hens teeth.

[JBone]

There is proof they had planted spies and they left them there after the war. At that point I'm pretty sure it's TPF that need to explain why they have spies planted in other alliances if it isn't to actually spy.

Might be the silliest quote in this thread. "You're not allowed to hit back when I hit you, that's how I fight and it's my business"

I don't think you quite understand the chain of events.

Talk of creating an alliance separate from TPF was discussed pre Karma.

Those wanting to create this AA postponed it to fight for TPF.

A plan was discussed to use this separate AA to destabilize one of the AAs on the other side, if there is a long and drawn out war, which looks very possible due to the forces wishing to kill NPO and TPF stance on not leaving until all of our allies get peace..

Before the war ended, those wishing to form this new AA were allowed to surrender to Karma, leave TPF and form Zero Hour.

OOC drama led to a severing of ties with Zero Hour, the above mentioned plan was scrapped, no longer an option, dead, over, finished, kaput.

The Karma war continued.

Zero Hour, signed a protectorate with Athens, apparently due to a real friendship that had developed.

TPF surrenders to the forces of Karma, signs terms and completes them.

Several months later, ZH reveals the discussions of the now infamous plan to Athens.

RoK declares? Still not sure why.

Athens declares.

GOD and \m/ bandwagon.

[Merrie Melodies]

One instance of nobility does not do much to obviate a tradition of dishonor, deception, and opportunism dating back to the parent alliances that TPF was founded from, especially when evidence comes to light since then that demonstrate that single act was as unique as hens teeth.

Well, one could certainly look at it that way, I tend to look at TPF in two time lines, the one with Slayer, The Big Bad and company and the One with Mhawk and crew.

[dwthegreat]

<Baldr> So Karma went to war to defend spies, they took your rep payments, and now that you paid your reps, they roll you, claiming you are spies. That about sum it up?

[Merrie Melodies]

I don't think you quite understand the chain of events.

Talk of creating an alliance separate from TPF was discussed pre Karma.

Those wanting to create this AA postponed it to fight for TPF.

A plan was discussed to use this separate AA to destabilize one of the AAs on the other side, if there is a long and drawn out war, which looks very possible due to the forces wishing to kill NPO and TPF stance on not leaving until all of our allies get peace..

Before the war ended, those wishing to form this new AA were allowed to surrender to Karma, leave TPF and form Zero Hour.

OOC drama led to a severing of ties with Zero Hour, the above mentioned plan was scrapped, no longer an option, dead, over, finished, kaput.

The Karma war continued.

Zero Hour, signed a protectorate with Athens, apparently due to a real friendship that had developed.

TPF surrenders to the forces of Karma, signs terms and completes them.

Several months later, ZH reveals the discussions of the now infamous plan to Athens.

RoK declares? Still not sure why.

Athens declares.

GOD and \m/ bandwagon.

I think we all agree on your time line, the issue at hand is bolded. TPF took no action to insure this. You put a plan in action and then walked away from it over a tussle. Unfortunately that plan was still in action until either TPF or ZH ended it, which in this case was two days ago and not by TPF.

[neneko]

I don't think you quite understand the chain of events.

Talk of creating an alliance separate from TPF was discussed pre Karma.

Those wanting to create this AA postponed it to fight for TPF.

A plan was discussed to use this separate AA to destabilize one of the AAs on the other side, if there is a long and drawn out war, which looks very possible due to the forces wishing to kill NPO and TPF stance on not leaving until all of our allies get peace..

Before the war ended, those wishing to form this new AA were allowed to surrender to Karma, leave TPF and form Zero Hour.

OOC drama led to a severing of ties with Zero Hour, the above mentioned plan was scrapped, no longer an option, dead, over, finished, kaput.

The Karma war continued.

Zero Hour, signed a protectorate with Athens, apparently due to a real friendship that had developed.

TPF surrenders to the forces of Karma, signs terms and completes them.

Several months later, ZH reveals the discussions of the now infamous plan to Athens.

RoK declares? Still not sure why.

Athens declares.

GOD and \m/ bandwagon.

From the look of the logs the plan was actually set in motion though. You forgot to add that to the timeline. You also forgot to point out where TPF came clean or pulled out the people they had sent to spy/harm athens.. oh wait that never happened.

[Kevin McDonald]

I think we all agree on your time line, the issue at hand is bolded. TPF took no action to insure this. You put a plan in action and then walked away from it over a tussle. Unfortunately that plan was still in action until either TPF or ZH ended it, which in this case was two days ago and not by TPF.

It's like the more we say it, the less they'll address it...

[Merrie Melodies]

<Baldr> So Karma went to war to defend spies, they took your rep payments, and now that you paid your reps, they roll you, claiming you are spies. That about sum it up?

Not even close, you need a new calculator if it keeps coming up with your stated sum.