The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Merrie Melodies]

To the best of my knowledge, ZH obtained the protectorate under genuine terms. The plan had been shelved long before that came to being.

MM....when the members of the sleeper cell drop trow and shout kiss my tiny bits.....the cell is no longer connected to the parent.

Well if your sleeper did "drop trow" that might have been a good time to explain to athens who these people where before Athens signed the protectorate.

[bigwoody]

The OOC fallout is not the question. The question is if the intent for the plan which was started was ever called back. You're claiming an OOC argument to be the end of an IC plan.

This is one reason I never got into the spying business, you put yourself in situations like that.

It seems pretty likely though that the plan ended before the Karma War did. That doesn't really seem to be the crux of the CB either, they're claiming it doesn't matter you didn't have it as part of your surrender so die now.

[bigwoody]

So you expect RoK and Athens to just take his word? The same one that concocted this wonderful plan during peace negotiations? You are quite the trusting person.

If you are aware of my recent past, you would know I don't put much value in TPF's word, much like I don't put much value in NPO's.

Again, I've been on the winning side of a eerily similar war, and I suspect you're getting played if the crux is a belief ZH was an active spy group.

[silentkiller]

Remind me, how exactly was OV hurting you before you hit them?

So you expect RoK and Athens to just take his word? The same one that concocted this wonderful plan during peace negotiations? You are quite the trusting person.

They took the sleeper cell's word the original ones who betrayed them and started a war without even talking to TPF at all, I am sure TPF would have been a more credible source.

[PrideAssassin]

Because FAN was on eternal ZI because NPO etc were being completely ridiculous.

You don't have that going for you here.

Stop acting like the victim, and take what you deserve. You got caught, accept it and move on.

FAN was never on "eternal ZI".

Usually you're pretty together, but this is laughable. They refused to surrender, their war was of their choosing.

[WarriorConcept]

This is one reason I never got into the spying business, you put yourself in situations like that.

It seems pretty likely though that the plan ended before the Karma War did. That doesn't really seem to be the crux of the CB either, they're claiming it doesn't matter you didn't have it as part of your surrender so die now.

Well mhawk put himself in that situation, not Athens nor you nor I.

Really? The CB seems to be that mhawk devised a plan to harm an alliance they weren't at war with in the long term during peace negotiations then never ended the plan. If mhawk admitted to it or ended it when they surrendered then it'd be fine, so the two "cruxs" both go hand in hand.

[AVFC1]

Certainly. The question is, if the OOC fallout with ZH's members had not occurred, did he intend for the harm to span past the end of the war?

Probably. But its far from certain.

Their idea was to create alliance, get protectorates then merge into the protector alliance and cause instability. That's a fairly long term plan, not one that is likely to be anywhere near complete over the duration of peace negotiations. I personally think it's safe to say it was intended to last far beyond the conclusion of the karma war.

[tamerlane]

They took the sleeper cell's word the original ones who betrayed them and started a war without even talking to TPF at all, I am sure TPF would have been a more credible source.

Yes, about as credible as planning sabotage during peace talks.

[Bob]

FAN was never on "eternal ZI".

Usually you're pretty together, but this is laughable. They refused to surrender, their war was of their choosing.

Right, I apologize for being inspecific.

FAN was on "whenever you get off terms we will find some way to roll you" ZI.

I don't think anyone would surrender under those terms.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[Proko]

The point being is it was a sleeper cell, hell it could have sleep for 12 months before taking action so that argument is mute.

Sticking with the three points this sleeper was not recalled, no argument can be made it was. This sleeper was not destroyed, no argument can be made that it was and this sleeper was not exposed until it did so itself two days ago, once again no argument can be made that it was.

TPF claiming the sleeper hand a fall out with its handler and they simply wrote them off does not change any of the facts, IMO all it does is show incompetence.

The only question in my mind is, did this sleeper expose its self with intent to start a war and complete its mission?

Evidence is an issue either way, it seems, but I think the attacking side has the burden of proof. Again, I'd reiterate I know less than I should about ZH's perspective in this, and if you could point to me any posts or manifests they've made on the topic I would be grateful. I do not have the evidence to disprove your statements, but I also have not seen anything conclusive enough to make me believe them.

I suppose this question is better asked in the Athens thread, of which I have read much less, but what measures is Athens taking with ZH regarding its role? If what you are saying is true, than ZH violated Athens' sovereignty more than TPF ever did, ZH being composed of individuals of sound mind who knowingly accepted and perpetrated this charge (if what you are saying is true.)

[WarriorConcept]

Again, I've been on the winning side of a eerily similar war, and I suspect you're getting played if the crux is a belief ZH was an active spy group.

That's not the "crux" of the CB. The "crux" of the CB is mhawk's plan to harm an alliance they weren't at war with in the long term during peace negotiations then never ended the plan.

[potato]

NOU?

but how much clearer can my intent be when I am telling you they are intended to be used on Athens? Also back to the main point why isnt the supposed "sleeper cell" under attack? after all they are the main people who took action in this sorry episode.

But you see Ov did wrong us(debateable I know, and I mself am of the opinion that they didnt) whereas all TPF did was intend to wrong someone but never actually did it. Their extent f harmin Athens was to give them a protectorate.

A protectorate whose aim was to destroy Athens' community. Not spy (or maybe a little) but destroy.

[WarriorConcept]

I suppose this question is better asked in the Athens thread, of which I have read much less, but what measures is Athens taking with ZH regarding its role? If what you are saying is true, than ZH violated Athens' sovereignty more than TPF ever did, ZH being composed of individuals of sound mind who knowingly accepted and perpetrated this charge (if what you are saying is true.)

This is answered in the Athen's thread.

[silentkiller]

Yes, about as credible as planning sabotage during peace talks.

All I am saying is that Athens should have atleast talked toO TPF before going on the offensive, normally only listening to the main criminals and take it as absolute proof doesnt end well, "see WF-UED". yes what TPF did was wrong but from what I am reading they did it in the face of what they thought was eternal war"

[WarriorConcept]

All I am saying is that Athens should have atleast talked toO TPF before going on the offensive, normally only listening to the main criminals and take it as absolute proof doesnt end well, "see WF-UED". yes what TPF did was wrong but from what I am reading they did it in the face of what they thought was eternal war"

There was no eternal war. They'd been offered surrender terms throughout the whole entire war.

[Chickenzilla]

I could have sworn that wars have been declared on the whisper of spying from TPF and their allies. This isn't a whisper, even if they didn't intend to destroy alliances, they are still infultrating them. Good show mhawk.

[JBone]

You went after an alliance you were not directly fighting and took zero steps to ensure that your creation was not going to continue to cause harm once you surrendered.

We went after a major player on the Karma side....who seemed vulnerable to such a tactic.

It would have ended when terms were signed.

Some time before we surrendered.....they were no longer our creation. They were an independent alliance with real affection for Athens.

Well if your sleeper did "drop trow" that might have been a good time to explain to athens who these people where before Athens signed the protectorate.

No one seems to hear this: WE WERE STILL AT WAR WHEN ZH TOLD MHAWK TO FARK OFF, THE PLAN WAS OVER BEFORE WE SIGNED TERMS.

Sorry for yelling.

[silentkiller]

A protectorate whose aim was to destroy Athens' community. Not spy (or maybe a little) but destroy.

and again these "protectorate" should have been punished as well, I am sure they werent forced to take up this assignment and took it up voluntarily. But I am sure right now they are being given a pat on the shoulder for providing a war to Athens and co.

There was no eternal war. They'd been offered surrender terms throughout the whole entire war.

Emphasis on what they thought was eternal war partly due to their refusal to budge on the terms and partly because of PC's refusal. Do you remember why FAN was'nt allowed to surrender. Hint: because they refused any peace which wasnt white peace(although who can blame them for that).

Edited December 27, 2009 by silentkiller

[Archon]

We went after a major player on the Karma side....who seemed vulnerable to such a tactic.

It would have ended when terms were signed.

Some time before we surrendered.....they were no longer our creation. They were an independent alliance with real affection for Athens.

Did you take any steps to ensure they were not a threat beyond conjecture?

[Bob]

and again these "protectorate" should have been punished as well, I am sure they werent forced to take up this assignment and took it up voluntarily. But I am sure right now they are being given a pat on the shoulder for providing a war to Athens and co.

No, they are being given a pat on the shoulder for confessing when they didn't have to.

[WarriorConcept]

We went after a major player on the Karma side....who seemed vulnerable to such a tactic.

It would have ended when terms were signed.

Some time before we surrendered.....they were no longer our creation. They were an independent alliance with real affection for Athens.

It would have ended if you declared war on Athens then signed peace with Athens.

You surrendered during the beginning of a long term plan that would've held no relevance to that war at the time. The plan was to hurt long after and mhawk's intent was clear in all the logs.

[neneko]

Can we stop saying that TPF was in an eternal war?

Anyone that was around during the karma war and isn't a goldfish know that TPF was ammong the alliances that were offered peace terms pretty early in the war and they refused to take them. Nobody that read the owf at the time could possibly have been under the impression that TPF would never get peace. Kudos to them for holding out but they were in no way forced to continue the war any longer than they wanted to.

[tamerlane]

All I am saying is that Athens should have atleast talked toO TPF before going on the offensive, normally only listening to the main criminals and take it as absolute proof doesnt end well, "see WF-UED". yes what TPF did was wrong but from what I am reading they did it in the face of what they thought was eternal war"

I believe it has been stated multiple times in this thread by Archon, pretty trusty guy on issues such as these, that this occurred during peace talks. To put it in perspective, peace was on the table and they were making these plans. I ask you again, why should anyone trust TPFs word on this issue? It would have been a waste of time for all involved.

[Merrie Melodies]

Did you take any steps to ensure they were not a threat beyond conjecture?

Archon cuts right to the root cause of this war. Really simple when you edit out all the e-law.

[2burnt2eat]

You do realize that 2burnt2eat was saying that Athens had stored up the CB and that's why AirMe flipped out because 2burnt2eat was being ridiculous.

My point was, and is, that it's old. As for when I said storing, here's what I said:

This whole idea that these "casus bellis" can be stored away like monopoly cards to be played at a later date is getting ridiculous.

In response to people saying that it doesn't matter how old a CB is, in previous pages.

I'm not saying Athens stored this away for a rainy day after knowing about it for months; I'm saying this idea that it can, and still hold so much weight is ridiculous, this opening a door of fallacy for reasons for wars.