Most Disappointing Player or Alliance

[Proko]

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NpO - It seems that I can't go a week without seeing somebody from NpO trash-talk Echelon. Truth be known, Echelon is indifferent in our opinion of NpO. I think what disappoints me most about you is that you can't seem to get past events of long ago. Think of who lead Echelon the past, Khyber, Ross Garner, Tela, BadBoyBill2007, El Hefe, just to name a few. Not a single one of these individuals is in Echelon today. If you've got a problem with Echelon, I would hope that it is because you had a problem with Neo Anglia, Chogsilanimous, Solidus117, Ruggerdawg, memoryproblems, KMBanana, Capt. McKinnon, the face of the current Echelon government, but I doubt that is the case, and thats the reason why I'm disappointed

I do not intend to de-rail the thread, but I would like to clarify my position on Echelon as indicated by my first post, and I think with some confidence Fallen Fool will also agree with this, and since this serves as a meta-discussion of the thread, I will post it rather than PM it:

You are correct, in that I have no problems with the current Echelon leadership. Until you gave me that list I couldn't name a single Echelon leader (although upon reading it some are familiar). But the nature of this thread, or at least how I interpreted it, was not "name the most disappointing alliance as it currently exists" but name why you have, at some point, felt an alliance let you down or failed to meet your expectations and why. I considered Echelon a strong ally of Polaris, and their treaty cancellation and their subsequent ridicule of us in their announcements hurt more than cancellations by, say, MCXA or TPF.

I am reasonably apathetic towards Echelon's existence these days, and I have no idea what their stance is on that treaty cancellation (for example, ODN has apologized to us for dropping out of that war). My statement is a reflection from the times that I most interacted with Echelon, and something that I felt very strongly about. You might even say, there is a temporal aspect to this thread: notice that people are disappointed with \m/, for example, who no longer exist. I would not take statements from myself and Fallen (and if anyone else from Polaris expressed 'disappointment' in Echelon?) to be reflections of our current opinions of Echelon.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Proko

[memoryproblems]

You are disappointed with us now, we are disappointed with your alliance since Echelon sold us for membership in One Vision, I think we have a draw. Do not try to blame just the Echelon leaders when all members of your alliance(there are +20 members with a seniority of +400 days) followed their leadership, I don't remember them protesting against their decision. Unlike MCXA who were a large alliance with most of the members inactives or clueless you can't tell the same for a top tier and relative small alliance like you were.

I wouldn't consider it a draw, as I'm disappointed for your recent behaviors, whereas your disappointed with Echelon for something that happened a long time ago and quite frankly has no relativity to the entity that we are today. 20 members would have hardly been anything close to a majority of Echelon at that time.

Furthermore, with that logic in mind, should I conclude that the NpO of today is no better then the one who forced the disbandment of the NAAC simply because there is +80 members with seniority over 800 days?

I am reasonably apathetic towards Echelon's existence these days, and I have no idea what their stance is on that treaty cancellation (for example, ODN has apologized to us for dropping out of that war). My statement is a reflection from the times that I most interacted with Echelon, and something that I felt very strongly about. You might even say, there is a temporal aspect to this thread: notice that people are disappointed with \m/, for example, who no longer exist. I would not take statements from myself and Fallen (and if anyone else from Polaris expressed 'disappointment' in Echelon?) to be reflections of our current opinions of Echelon.

Thats understandable, I think we're better then we once we're, certainly different at the least. As for Echelon's stance on the cancellation of that treaty, we don't have a stance and I doubt we ever will - the fact is that the people in the Echelon government now weren't in government when that treaty was canceled. Its impossible for us to retropsectively evaluate whether it was the right choice or not, and we're not even going to try there. (While I have my own personal opinions, you don't really know what you'd do unless you were in that situation.

When I posted that I was disappointed in NpO, it wasn't because of the people in this thread who've posted their disappointed in Echelon because of the past, I think that many were disappointed with Echelon once and are less so now, but it was because of the countless people who miss no opportunity to associate our past with us now in every single thread we have. I can think of a large handful of this type, and frankly whereas I expect better from people, these people repetitively disappoint me.

Edited December 15, 2009 by memoryproblems

[Fallen Fool]

I think with some confidence Fallen Fool will also agree with this

I do.

Echelon's cancellation was the single greatest alliance-to-alliance disappointment for me personally, but at this point I'm over it and largely apathetic to the present incarnation of that alliance.

[Schattenmann]

As for Echelon's stance on the cancellation of that treaty, we don't have a stance and I doubt we ever will - the fact is that the people in the Echelon government now weren't in government when that treaty was canceled. Its impossible for us to retropsectively evaluate whether it was the right choice or not, and we're not even going to try there.

Whew! How wrong can a person be?

[D34th]

I wouldn't consider it a draw, as I'm disappointed for your recent behaviors, whereas your disappointed with Echelon for something that happened a long time ago and quite frankly has no relativity to the entity that we are today. 20 members would have hardly been anything close to a majority of Echelon at that time.

Furthermore, with that logic in mind, should I conclude that the NpO of today is no better then the one who forced the disbandment of the NAAC simply because there is +80 members with seniority over 800 days?

I'll always agree with ES in this matter, nobody can force other alliance to disband. So nothing to argue here.

And at least for me is easier forgive and forget your enemies past behaviors than your friends treasons. I do not forgive and not forget what Echelon did in the past, but doesn't mean that I hate or would like to roll you, I just doesn't wanna any kind of relation with you guys, if you expected something better than apathy coming from Polaris I have to say that you are naive or crazy.

[memoryproblems]

Whew! How wrong can a person be?

I'm sure you define that on a daily basis.

I'll always agree with ES in this matter, nobody can force other alliance to disband. So nothing to argue here.

And at least for me is easier forgive and forget your enemies past behaviors than your friends treasons. I do not forgive and not forget what Echelon did in the past, but doesn't mean that I hate or would like to roll you, I just doesn't wanna any kind of relation with you guys, if you expected something better than apathy coming from Polaris I have to say that you are naive or crazy.

Sure, you can't do it for them, but Polaris did just about everything next to forcing them. Whether you can force somebody to disband or not is irrelevant, just as you view Echelon's treaty cancellation against you as some sort of horrible, I certainly am not filled with love for Polaris over the matter. Your argument that Echelon is no better now than then because we have so many of the same members (but not government members) is a hard argument to sell with that sort of thing on your record. I've gotten over the NAAC thing, things change, but there are many who can't seem to forgive and forget.

As for relations, I can't say that Echelon really wants relation with you guys either. We don't mind you, but I don't see alot of things that we really like for that matter either. I guess you can call it mutual indifference.

Edited December 15, 2009 by memoryproblems

[AlmightyGrub]

I'm sure you define that on a daily basis.

Sure, you can't do it for them, but Polaris did just about everything next to forcing them. Whether you can force somebody to disband or not is irrelevant, just as you view Echelon's treaty cancellation against you as some sort of horrible, I certainly am not filled with love for Polaris over the matter. Your argument that Echelon is no better now than then because we have so many of the same members (but not government members) is a hard argument to sell with that sort of thing on your record. I've gotten over the NAAC thing, things change, but there are many who can't seem to forgive and forget.

As for relations, I can't say that Echelon really wants relation with you guys either. We don't mind you, but I don't see alot of things that we really like for that matter either. I guess you can call it mutual indifference.

MemoryProblems, let me first address the Echelon-Polaris issues. It is extremely clear you have absolutely zero concept of what actually occurred and that is fine, however you seem to want speak with great authority on the subject which is not. Echelon were a major part of BLEU, a very close ally of Polaris, over a protracted period of time. Echelon were heavily involved in every decision made by BLEU and nothing was ever done at BLEU without their direct and overt involvement. Echelon were aggressive and brash and extremely supportive of all things undertaken by BLEU.

At some stage, fueled by the information that BLEU was going to be rolled, they accepted an offer to join One Vision, to replace Polaris, contingent on their withdrawal from BLEU. I can see the advantages for the alliance, but the way it was handled was both pathetic and shameful. The overt and deliberate lies told by Echelon about their role and the role of others within BLEU is what upsets the former BLEU allies including Polaris, and by upset I mean pissed us off at the highest levels of frustration and anger.

More than any other alliance, Echelon threw us under the bus for their own political gain, short lived as it turned out, but their transparent grab at power at the expense of their former friends will long be remembered by people like FF and I who were involved on a day to day basis with BLEU and subsequently Echelon's leadership.

Disappointed is these days sufficient to describe our relationship. Whatever issues you have with us seem to be rooted even further back unless we are doing something currently that upsets you?

As for the NAAC, let me be crystal clear, you have no idea at all and the more you open your fat trap to try to score points the more embarrassing it is. Electron_Sponge could never have forced the NAAC to disband, Polaris did not have the power, real or imagined to make such a thing happen. The NAAC disbanded well prior to Sponge and I ever discussing terms, if in doubt check the old forums, look at the dates carefully, look at the reasons explained carefully then come back and apologise for your deliberate attempts to smear Polaris yet again for something we didn't do.

Honestly, I don't really care what you think or believe, but I will not tolerate deliberate misinformation being thrown into debates to try to score points. Get a clue then come back.

[Vilien]

I've gotten over the NAAC thing, things change, but there are many who can't seem to forgive and forget.

Are you trying to blame Grub for what happened to NAAC? Pathetic.

[Bob]

Sanction was never one of the goals of Nemesis. In fact, it's not even possible with their set up.

This man speaks the truth. Nemesis could never reach sanction, period.

[Earogema]

Whew! How wrong can a person be?

Well his name is memoryproblems

[D34th]

I'm sure you define that on a daily basis.

Sure, you can't do it for them, but Polaris did just about everything next to forcing them. Whether you can force somebody to disband or not is irrelevant, just as you view Echelon's treaty cancellation against you as some sort of horrible, I certainly am not filled with love for Polaris over the matter. Your argument that Echelon is no better now than then because we have so many of the same members (but not government members) is a hard argument to sell with that sort of thing on your record. I've gotten over the NAAC thing, things change, but there are many who can't seem to forgive and forget.

As for relations, I can't say that Echelon really wants relation with you guys either. We don't mind you, but I don't see alot of things that we really like for that matter either. I guess you can call it mutual indifference.

For who doesn't want any kind of relation other than mutual indifference why are you disappointed with us? We are doing exactly what you want.

For all the other matters, Grub covered them better than I could ever did.

[HeinousOne]

Disappointing? The entire World? Does that work?

It is literally a chore to try and read these boards anymore. Where did the over the top personalities go?

[memoryproblems]

I do not profess to know the history behind Echelon of that period, as that was considerably before I joined. I make no efforts to claim that I have said knowledge. Neither you or I can really tell the complete motivation behind that treaty cancellation, it could be exclusively for political positioning, or it could be something else such as redefining treaties to match up with the level of their friendships and their ideals. The only people who can really tell us are the ones who made that decision.

Grub, I have a lot of respect for you, I really do. I think in many ways you completely mis-understood what I was trying to say. In no way am I trying to say that Echelon has been an angel (we're far from it), and in no way am I trying to solely blame the disbandment of the NAAC on NpO. Just as Echelon is far from perfect, NpO has items in its history which are far from just. There is a major difference between the past and the present. Alliances change over time, as Polaris has, and as I like to think Echelon has. To quote Bob Dylan, "The Times, They are a changing". Just as the polaris of today is far different then the one that you and I fought against during our time in the NAAC, the Echelon of today is far different then the one that canceled that treaty. Very few alliances stand the test of any length of time without accumulating a few blemishes on their record.

To be honest, I could not care any less what anybody thinks of Echelon. I've played this game for almost 3 and a half years, and I've had my fair share of alliances. In Echelon I've found a place where I enjoy playing the game, a place where I can be myself. It doesn't bother me to hear what you guys say of Echelon of the past, I know exactly what Echelon is today, and to be honest, there is absolutely no other place that I would rather be.

Are you trying to blame Grub for what happened to NAAC? Pathetic.

Vilien, I really would suggest that you read next time, nowhere did I say or even infer anything close to that. To the contrary, I know Grub did his best at the NAAC, and I have alot of respect for him.

Well his name is memoryproblems

You know, 3 and a half years ago that was funny, anymore it just shows your lack of resourcefulness

[D34th]

I do not profess to know the history behind Echelon of that period, as that was considerably before I joined. I make no efforts to claim that I have said knowledge. Neither you or I can really tell the complete motivation behind that treaty cancellation, it could be exclusively for political positioning, or it could be something else such as redefining treaties to match up with the level of their friendships and their ideals. The only people who can really tell us are the ones who made that decision.

Of course Echelon canceled on Polaris because they were redefining treaties to match up with the level of their friendships and their ideals.

You can say that you weren't part of Echelon gov at the cancelation time or that you weren't in Echelon, but do not try to spin the reason of the cancelation please.

...and in no way am I trying to solely blame the disbandment of the NAAC on NpO.

Yeah you are:

Furthermore, with that logic in mind, should I conclude that the NpO of today is no better then the one who forced the disbandment of the NAAC simply because there is +80 members with seniority over 800 days?

Sure, you can't do it for them, but Polaris did just about everything next to forcing them.

[memoryproblems]

Of course Echelon canceled on Polaris because they were redefining treaties to match up with the level of their friendships and their ideals. lol1.gif

You can say that you weren't part of Echelon gov at the cancelation time or that you weren't in Echelon, but do not try to spin the reason of the cancelation please.

People will believe what they want to believe. Frankly I don't care because it was a long time ago and bickering about it isn't going to change anything. Like I said, theres no way for you or I to know, since we weren't there or in a position to make the decision. I guess you'll just have to believe what you want, its not like its going to change anything anyway.

[D34th]

unhappyly I can't post only smiles, because this one summarizes my feelings.

[Schattenmann]

There is a major difference between the past and the present. Alliances change over time, as Polaris has, and as I like to think Echelon has. To quote Bob Dylan, "The Times, They are a changing". Just as the polaris of today is far different then the one that you and I fought against during our time in the NAAC, the Echelon of today is far different then the one that canceled that treaty.

If you refuse the idea that Echelon can or should own up to its past mistakes, and Echelon does indeed refuse to acknowledge its mistakes, then all change is precluded. Democratic alliances don't get a magic global memory reset every month when they have elections, Echelon doesn't get a mystical pass because all your leaders got going when the going got rough (the same way they "led" Echelon) and have been replaced.

Your stance is preposterous.

[Earogema]

You know, 3 and a half years ago that was funny, anymore it just shows your lack of resourcefulness

I was only joking, but if you really do want to get into a little squabble over it, be my guest.

As for this whole "History is gone, so it doesn't matter anymore!"

See the One Vision versus No Vision conflict. Yeah, you weren't in One Vision yet, but by joining them you implicitly agreed that said action was completely justified.

[memoryproblems]

If you refuse the idea that Echelon can or should own up to its past mistakes, and Echelon does indeed refuse to acknowledge its mistakes, then all change is precluded. Democratic alliances don't get a magic global memory reset every month when they have elections, Echelon doesn't get a mystical pass because all your leaders got going when the going got rough (the same way they "led" Echelon) and have been replaced.

Your stance is preposterous.

Did you not see my bit about Echelon is not perfect and has done bad things in the past? Echelon has made its fair of mistakes, I've acknowledged that before, in this thread even. Whats important to realize is that hind-sight is 20/20, and to be honest if I was in the position of those who made the decisions in those mistakes, I don't know if I would have done any different. (I like to think I would have, but until your there, you don't know.)

I was only joking, but if you really do want to get into a little squabble over it, be my guest.

You'd be surprised at how often that joke comes up

Also, wow this thing got off-track fast. Sorry

Edited December 16, 2009 by memoryproblems

[Bob Janova]

Damn you guys for having a discussion like this in the OOC forum where I can't jump in and play

[D34th]

Damn you guys for having a discussion like this in the OOC forum where I can't jump in and play

Why not?

[Iosif]

See the One Vision versus No Vision conflict. Yeah, you weren't in One Vision yet, but by joining them you implicitly agreed that said action was completely justified.

That's really pretty horrible line of reasoning, to be honest. The only thing Echelon's decision revealed to us was their priorities; to say them caring more about the treaty than their past actions means they agree with their past actions is just fallacious. I find it more than likely they just didn't care about the whole mess, actually, a feeling I and really quite many shared back in the day because only those getting hammered had to. That's how it used to go under the ancien regime.

[King Chill I]

I think you strongly overestimate the abilities of Karma. The fact that it achieved what it did, given what it was plagued with internally (Hey, LiquidMercury/Ramirus/Roquentin, if you're reading this - SOVEREIGNTY!) is a miracle.

Yeah, I'll vouch for this. We couldn't get any true centralized authority since people were upset about their sovereignty possibly being infringed upon and you do have to give up some to make an effective central leadership.

I guess i could have a lot to be disappointed about on the subject, good thing i stopped caring.

Edited December 16, 2009 by King Chill I

[Chief Savage Man]

We gave the OP wartime command of the one alliance I truly loved, then he pissed it all away with hare-brained schemes and then quit on us in our time of greatest need.

[Bob Sanders]

MemoryProblems, let me first address the Echelon-Polaris issues. It is extremely clear you have absolutely zero concept of what actually occurred and that is fine, however you seem to want speak with great authority on the subject which is not. Echelon were a major part of BLEU, a very close ally of Polaris, over a protracted period of time. Echelon were heavily involved in every decision made by BLEU and nothing was ever done at BLEU without their direct and overt involvement. Echelon were aggressive and brash and extremely supportive of all things undertaken by BLEU.

At some stage, fueled by the information that BLEU was going to be rolled, they accepted an offer to join One Vision, to replace Polaris, contingent on their withdrawal from BLEU. I can see the advantages for the alliance, but the way it was handled was both pathetic and shameful. The overt and deliberate lies told by Echelon about their role and the role of others within BLEU is what upsets the former BLEU allies including Polaris, and by upset I mean pissed us off at the highest levels of frustration and anger.

More than any other alliance, Echelon threw us under the bus for their own political gain, short lived as it turned out, but their transparent grab at power at the expense of their former friends will long be remembered by people like FF and I who were involved on a day to day basis with BLEU and subsequently Echelon's leadership.

Disappointed is these days sufficient to describe our relationship. Whatever issues you have with us seem to be rooted even further back unless we are doing something currently that upsets you?

As Top 3 Q gov at the time I agree, I expected Echelon to stick it out and I was hoping to see them get rolled. They were the only cancellation that surprised/disappointed me. Even funnier was the MADP upgrade right before the cancelation which proved how clueless they were. I guess Sparta fell in that same upgrade category though , I'm pretty sure they were even more clueless than Echelon.