enderland Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Not really | Edit for clarity: our wars against KoN would be individual wars, I am contesting their status as an alliance war.I would respond as if it were though By this definition there is no such thing as an alliance war, since every single declaration will be an individual war. Unless you define that by a coordinated attack against an alliance? Or a statistically large percentage of nations being engaged? Or some official "DoW" on the OWF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinpah Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 By this definition there is no such thing as an alliance war, since every single declaration will be an individual war.Unless you define that by a coordinated attack against an alliance? Or a statistically large percentage of nations being engaged? Or some official "DoW" on the OWF? I suppose we have to look at intent, as well as how we came to this mass tech raid. I would, as I've said before, not consider the alliances themselves to have sanctioned these tech raids and as such these are not "alliance wars". I know FoB did not force anyone to declare, and the method with which we attack is rather different (as WalkerNinja pointed out ) I can't say that FoB itself has declared war on this alliance because FoB itself has no intent to crush this alliance; however, the culture of our alliance and those that exist within it do allow and support tech raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenann Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 okay failed quote attempt of me....Regardless one of the senior members found the treaty in our government discussion forum from long ago. In the post it said this was not announced via owf and we seemed to have never added it to our treaty list. So in short we found the missing treaty........ Yay for finding the missing treaty... now what are you going to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choader Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I suppose we have to look at intent, as well as how we came to this mass tech raid. I would, as I've said before, not consider the alliances themselves to have sanctioned these tech raids and as such these are not "alliance wars". I know FoB did not force anyone to declare, and the method with which we attack is rather different (as WalkerNinja pointed out ) I can't say that FoB itself has declared war on this alliance because FoB itself has no intent to crush this alliance; however, the culture of our alliance and those that exist within it do allow and support tech raiding. Or put another way, how would you expect pirates to behave? We raid, it's part of our culture, while several members aren't interested in participating themselves most do. We don't need to send out orders to get multiple members raiding the same AA, usually just showing up on the war screen is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason8 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Tech raid is a term used to describe a war in which the attacking nation (is supposed to) reap profits through warfare. Alliance war is a term used to describe a war in which profits are not gained through warfare, but as a result of the end of the conflict. That's about as cut and dry as I can make it. Edited November 14, 2009 by Jason8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Alliance wars don't necessarily result in profits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason8 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Alliance wars don't necessarily result in profits. Neither do tech raids. However, the final goal for both is much different, even though they both assume profits will be had. Edited November 14, 2009 by Jason8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Well, I guess the difference imo is that in an alliance war the "profit" is normally not in land/tech/infra/money (well depending on how reps work :v) but more often in security benefits or things of that nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Razzia Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Yeah. I don't really like this massive gang tech raid, but it isn't like they're trying to destroy them as if it were an alliance war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Well, I guess the difference imo is that in an alliance war the "profit" is normally not in land/tech/infra/money (well depending on how reps work :v) but more often in security benefits or things of that nature. What you're saying right here, is that these attacks on KofN nations are techraids... Since KofN poses no threat to Athens, nor do any raid victims to their attacker (initially), ofcourse. You just destroyed your own argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason8 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Well, I guess the difference imo is that in an alliance war the "profit" is normally not in land/tech/infra/money (well depending on how reps work :v) but more often in security benefits or things of that nature. True. But you gotta admit, at the end of the day, 2,000,000 tech being delivered to your door just has to feel... trashy. I'd rather raid for it. Much more honorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason8 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 What you're saying right here, is that these attacks on KofN nations are techraids... Since KofN poses no threat to Athens, nor do any raid victims to their attacker (initially), ofcourse.You just destroyed your own argument! It IS a tech raid. That doesn't make it any less of a war, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 It IS a tech raid. That doesn't make it any less of a war, though. Well, ofcourse. I was merely pointing out that ender's initial argument (this being an alliance wide war) is false, even according to himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenann Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 so can someone in M*A*S*H answer my question... now that you have found said treaty... which is an MDP with KofN, what are you planning on doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 What you're saying right here, is that these attacks on KofN nations are techraids... Since KofN poses no threat to Athens, nor do any raid victims to their attacker (initially), ofcourse.You just destroyed your own argument! Key word: normally. Launching some 30+ wars (I'm not sure on the exact breakdown between FoB and Athens, I believe Athens had significantly more) in a coordinated fashion is definitely something more than a tech raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedj Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 That's true, getting attacked has no negative effect on the community of an alliance. One could argue that it only strengthens the community. i believe ive heard from several members of NPO who said their community/alliance only grew closer during the Karma War. Another fine example would be Fark during the GOON war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinpah Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Key word: normally.Launching some 30+ wars (I'm not sure on the exact breakdown between FoB and Athens, I believe Athens had significantly more) in a coordinated fashion is definitely something more than a tech raid. Being in the channel where the raiding was "coordinated" I can assert that the coordination was mostly Choader posting 5 or 6 nation links and then everyone scrambling for a target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Key word: normally.Launching some 30+ wars (I'm not sure on the exact breakdown between FoB and Athens, I believe Athens had significantly more) in a coordinated fashion is definitely something more than a tech raid. That's a cop-out, imho. Because what has Athens to gain by this, if it isn't "security"? Fact remains that even by your own definitions, these are just techraids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anenu Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 so at this rate how long before we pass the NPO thread were they posted the surrender terms Karma was offering them? Sorta shows how much of a drama shortage we are in right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Forrest Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 so can someone in M*A*S*H answer my question... now that you have found said treaty... which is an MDP with KofN, what are you planning on doing? Whelp, my bad. Do you know what it's like to go through 17 months of shoeboxes to dig up a treaty with people we hardly see? Hm. They can still have the cookie I offered earlier. As for the rest, we'll let you know when we're good an' ready. So there. What a world. Now if we can only find their ambassador... lighten up people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 That's a cop-out, imho. Because what has Athens to gain by this, if it isn't "security"? Fact remains that even by your own definitions, these are just techraids. Stating that my definition is wrong is far more effective if it actually is wrong, and not just wrong because you disagree with it. I agree that it is my definition and you are free to disagree. However to act as thought it is "wrong" is simply in error, because in this context it is NOT wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masterof9puppets Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Well, ofcourse.I was merely pointing out that ender's initial argument (this being an alliance wide war) is false, even according to himself. Well, being as a large portion of the alliance attacked (raided, declared, etc) Knights, I would definitely say that it is alliance-wide. Just my two cents. Edited November 14, 2009 by Masterof9puppets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Well, being as a large portion of the alliance attacked (raided, declared, etc) KoC, I would definitely say that it is alliance-wide. Just my two cents. That too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason8 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Well, ofcourse.I was merely pointing out that ender's initial argument (this being an alliance wide war) is false, even according to himself. But it IS an alliance wide war. It just wasn't fully organized with target lists. Athens government said "Here's an alliance, go raid it." And Athens, as an alliance, had a bunch of members blitz the Knights of Ni! Now I don't know about you, but there was a time in CN when full-scale alliance wars were handled this way. Drop a link to the AA and let everyone pick their targets. The only difference here is the avenue in which profits are being earned. But who cares? If these guys were treatied to some other alliance, you bet your $@! it would have been seen as an alliance war and that alliance would be drilling Athens in the butt as we speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinpah Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Well, being as a large portion of the alliance attacked (raided, declared, etc) Knights, I would definitely say that it is alliance-wide. Just my two cents. 7 members is my count; 6 that I see (not counting mushi ) and counting myself in there, I have already deleted the wars. A more accurate statement would be that a large portion of our members active at that time raided Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts