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Voodoo Nova

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http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1643450

Could you look over the Naval Defense Platform for me? Thanks.

Northrop Grumman just tested an underwater AIM-9X missile launcher last week. I also searched around and only found patents for submerged missile launchers in the 1980's. It's my opinion that such systems would only be available to upper tier modern/first world nations because such a system is only in the testing stages at the moment. If someone has information about such systems being developed before this test, I'd be interested in reading it.

My honest opinion is to make them all surface based over the sea, with RADAR/SONAR jamming equipment to aid in concealment.

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I was talking to Centurius earlier about Submarine Air Carriers and the possibility of them working, so I thought I would share what I told him earlier about them as some advice for you budding RP military equipment designers.

Submarine air carriers, while yes have existed at one point and have worked in the past, they are not feasible to have in any military. Mechanical issues, stability while on the surface, and defenses are three reasons why they would not be feasible. The salt water, as many of you know, would corrode much of the pneumatics and other various parts of the ship; constant maintenance would also be required for such a submarine. Stability while on the surface would also be an issue. The sub would roll and rock and be pushed around by the waves when the carrier is surfaced and receiving the planes. Defenses for the submarine would be minimal while it is submerging or rising, making it a sitting duck for aircraft and ship bombardment.

One solution is to make a 1-time-use-only airforce, where you have a Typhoon sized submarine with UAV's in a / / / / / / / / / / pattern down the front hull that can launch out and be used as a first strike system, but that seems overly complicated and UAV's can't dogfight. :P

Might as well just use a cruise missile.

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One solution is to make a 1-time-use-only airforce, where you have a Typhoon sized submarine with UAV's in a / / / / / / / / / / pattern down the front hull that can launch out and be used as a first strike system, but that seems overly complicated and UAV's can't dogfight. :P

Might as well just use a cruise missile.

This isn't with the use of submarines, the NG platform is just that, a platform. :P

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I'd like to call Mael's sea crawlers into question. From what I can understand because the links to wherever he made these aren't in his factbook, they can go both on and underwater, fire missiles and torpedoes and conceal themselves and are mass produceable, among other things.

Is it possible for something so small to have so many capabilities? Is it possible under his tech level? I'd like to know all of these, please, and if it is possible I'd like to know exactly what they can do.

Thanks.

Sea Crawlers (Invalid for CNRP-R canon)

The Torpedo/Missile platforms are each assigned a payload effective for its assigned duty and targets. The platforms which are torpedoes with MS-20 "Tiamat" nose attachments are deployed into the ocean from horizontal coast-line launch tubes and will sit idle at their assigned locations at max launch range from the target. We want to inform the world that this is not something that should be feared. The weapons are meant for our defense in times of war and only will be used when we feel threatened. The weapons are environmentally sensitive. If the weapon malfunctions, it is designed to send its missile into the stratosphere and self-destroy. All the weapons are conventional.. harboring no chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons.. although some are incendiaries. The torpedo section of the weapons are self-powered with a system we will not specify other than stating it relates to the sun. They receive instructions on a frequency and communications type we will not specify. We also will not give the details of their exact location. They will travel at speeds that are most likely not going to be detectable on sonar. If they are detected they'll look like little more than sea debris near the ocean floor. Their full deployment could take days.. weeks.. or months.. again.. we will not specify. They are designed to evade all ships they may encounter so as not to cause a fuss and to remain a weapon of passive intent. Before anyone protests.. we reserve the right to defend ourselves. This is our chosen method since we are not yet substantial enough to afford a large navy. These missiles are inexpensive on manpower and maintenance.. perfect for our intent. The Sea Crawlers can magnetically attatch to a hull for towing. Some of these sea-crawlers also act as sensory platforms, carrying basic radar and sonar packages. The net result is the extent of the sea-crawler web is also the maximum radar and sonar range of the Dragon Empire.

Notes:

Sea Web initial creation date: (12/13/2008 realtime). Initial Deployment Location: Tasmania. Later Launch sites: India, Antarctica (south of S.America).

Current Potential Perimeter size: Global regressing to international waters.

Current Deployment size: 5625 Missiles ##At least, this is the # known to the public##

Deployment rate: 50-75/day during the implementation phase.

Torpedo Stage Range: Unlimited

Missile Launch Stage Range: 1000 NM from site of launch (A range upgrade to a 1000NM range on the booster stage of the weapon has been begun as of 01/05/2009 and will be compeleted 01/20/2009.

Sea crawlers recognize programmed international boundaries that are updated with routine software upgrades. They avoid shallow waters to avoid beaching, the sensor package crawler, which is usually part of a pack of 4 crawlers, provides information to it's 3 "assignments". Like an oceanic AWACS.. facilitating targeting and navigation. They also avoid excessively cold water so they will not freeze, staying in temperatures of 32% Fahrenheit and above. All Sea Crawlers are piloted remotely by a division of Dragonisian Armed forces dedicated to the task.. secretly dubbed the "Dragon Empire oceanic Arms Division." or.. DEAD for short. They also have on-board navigation software and can auto-pilot in non-obstructive terrain. They can travel up any river or canal that is greater than 20 feet deep.

Edited by Sargun

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I'd like to call Mael's sea crawlers into question. From what I can understand because the links to wherever he made these aren't in his factbook, they can go both on and underwater, fire missiles and torpedoes and conceal themselves and are mass produceable, among other things.

Is it possible for something so small to have so many capabilities? Is it possible under his tech level? I'd like to know all of these, please, and if it is possible I'd like to know exactly what they can do.

Thanks.

I'm just going to have to say not possible. There is no system like that that can remain remote controlled such as that, and there is no way it can evade all ships or be completely unnoticeable to RADAR/SONAR systems. Something that has RADAR/SONAR can be detected some how by others with it. These are in all essence submarines. There is also no way one could afford to produce at least 5625 of those systems either, especially considering that is more than the amount of the worlds total submarine count. At his current tech level, they are not feasible. As far as I am concerned, these are just submarines and therefore require a navy to have them.

It's my opinion something of this nature cannot be mass produced like it was, nor can it be considered feasible to do so. Something of this nature would also not be of Mael's tech level, and should be considered naval ships.

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I went into detail about Mael's Seacrawlers on IRC along time ago. It wouldn't work. There are so many ways to detect underwater anomalies these days that nothing is totally invisible. Guidance for the weapon would have to use more than SONAR/RADAR. We're talking about a satellite network, in terms of guidance.

Each missile warhead will have to have its own guidance suite as well. Just research the Chinese ASBM, and read reports from the US Congress/DoD about the guidance and technological assets needed for such a weapon.

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I already fought this argument several times. I'm not going to make it again. It's been cannon for almost a year and supported by generations of mods and GMs. You can't disarm me just because a conflict comes up. The technology is sound and it is not based on a Satellite network, but ELF communications and on board programs. I also have access to Kingdom of Cochin's sats. They've redundant communications systems in case one goes buink. There were also made with 2008 technology and components from tech deals in the old days. I even explained at one point that they had UFE rocket boosters and guidance systems. Anyhow, I'm not going to try to defend it again.. and repeat an argument that is ages old and already resolved simply because an event is occurring.

It's already cannon by over a year and those protesting it now have had ages to protest them and have not.

The guidance packages are perfectly viable. See the Tomahawk cruise missile's terrain following packages. It's what they're loosely based on. The only difference.. one is in water. the other is not.

You also cannnot say enough time has been given for their production. They have been in existence and in production since 12/13/2008 real time.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex

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Honestly, I thought this thread was for the owners of a said piece of technology to come ask for help on technical aspects, not for others to question said technology's usage in RP :rolleyes:

It is, but when people ask questions, I give them my opinion. My opinion is nothing binding so there is no reason for people to get into an uproar over it.

Edited by Voodoo Nova

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Honestly, I thought this thread was for the owners of a said piece of technology to come ask for help on technical aspects, not for others to question said technology's usage in RP :rolleyes:

I'm not going to ask Maelstrom what he thinks of his own weapons. He's already said that they count as submarines, then cruise missiles, then tanks.

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I've never said any of those things. I said they count as standard munitions. They're as big as the missiles their based on + a torpedo section.. which would come to about 25 feet in length. I've definitely not said they count as tanks because tanks don't float. If you're going to quote someone, at least do so honestly. I have said they can be detected like submarines.

There is no real comparable weapon to base them on besides Tomahawk cruise missiles or a UCAV that operates in water; those by far bear the closest resemblance. And 95% of them only carry standard munitions.

SOME of them count as cruise missiles.. because SOME of them may carry biological or chemical weapons warheads.. but that's top secret icly.

VN: Sorry, thought someone was trying to turn your opinion into a rule/law. My last post in here and it's only to defend myself from other's remarks. I'll only post again if I am forced to continue defending my weapons.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex

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I have a question on soldiers...

If I roleplay them with the effectiveness/training half that of the normal nation, will this allow me to have twice the troops? Stats-wise, this will not change the outcome of battles in any sort of way; I just would like to roleplay more troops :P. Any guerilla forces I use will be regular effectiveness, but will be the normal amount of troops.

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I have a question on soldiers...

If I roleplay them with the effectiveness/training half that of the normal nation, will this allow me to have twice the troops? Stats-wise, this will not change the outcome of battles in any sort of way; I just would like to roleplay more troops :P. Any guerilla forces I use will be regular effectiveness, but will be the normal amount of troops.

This may be more appropriate for the CNRP OOC thread. :P

This is meant specifically for technology help.

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The underwater defense platform is nothing more complicated then a SAM site with torpedoes instead of rockets. Given that a firing mechanism is nothing more complicated then the Japanese would use on a torpedo dropped from a prop plane during Pearl Harbour I don't think it really qualifies as anything super-modern. They are stuck on a package and lowered to the ocean floor and only with the construction of the regional undersea tunnel by three major nations have I created facilities for raising and lowering them within regions where ocean depth isn't extreme.

Nothing close to modern day electronics, materials or other scientific or technological advances would be needed to build them and they are not based on any real world designs, although I suppose a multiple torpedo based CAPTOR mine with a wire linked back to the Aether naval centers would be similar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTOR_mine

Date Deployed: 1979

I'll admit that mine is a bit more fancy looking then the picture, but the launch platform is meant to be reusable in the future and is closer to the thought logic of an anti-air system then the thought logic of a mine.

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The underwater defense platform is nothing more complicated then a SAM site with torpedoes instead of rockets. Given that a firing mechanism is nothing more complicated then the Japanese would use on a torpedo dropped from a prop plane during Pearl Harbour I don't think it really qualifies as anything super-modern. They are stuck on a package and lowered to the ocean floor and only with the construction of the regional undersea tunnel by three major nations have I created facilities for raising and lowering them within regions where ocean depth isn't extreme.

Nothing close to modern day electronics, materials or other scientific or technological advances would be needed to build them and they are not based on any real world designs, although I suppose a multiple torpedo based CAPTOR mine with a wire linked back to the Aether naval centers would be similar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTOR_mine

I'll admit that mine is a bit more fancy looking then the picture, but the launch platform is meant to be reusable in the future and is closer to the thought logic of an anti-air system then the thought logic of a mine.

I was under the assumption it was a SAM site underwater, similar to what NG just tested. This is why you people need to stop using fancy pictures for simple stuff. :P

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I've got something for you to rate, Voodoo. I call it the RADU, the Recoverable Aerial Drop Unit.

Chassis: Three 737 size armored capsules molded together in a line. Armored hydrogen tanks would be placed across the body, along with retro-thrusters and parachutes.

Capacity: (Capsules are the same size, so the location of things can be interchanged)

Capsule Configurations:

- Soldier: 80 men + gear

- Armor: 2 Special Calico light assault tanks

- Soldier Support: 3 Mother class Mobile Logistics Vehicles (containing supplies and such)

- Supply: 1500 cubic feet of supplies)

How it Works

So, there are the three capsules, each of them armored, accompanied by armored hydrogen tanks making them substantially lighter. When carried above a target, a computer can guide the vehicle to a specific location like a guided bomb. Thrusters accompanies by parachutes help to guide the target. The vehicle will be traveling very slow by the time it hits the ground, meaning little to no damage to the contents or the vehicle.

The vehicle can be carried under a specialized plane. It solves the problem of a conventional air drop being poorly supplied by dropping soldiers and supplies in one armored "bomb". It also removes the necessity of having paratroopers be easy targets with large parachutes.

Any help on this would be great.

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I have a question about turrets, anti-air missiles, and anti- aircrat/missile towers. Are they realistic enough to use in CNRP?

Towers:

They are heavily reinforced and designed to take multiple standard bomb/missile explosions before being disabled. Bunker busters or heavy carpet bombing will easily disable/destroy the towers.

They fire track-via-missiles, active radar homing (when the enemy airplanes are dodging many of the track-via-missiles), Arrow missiles ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_%28miss...#Brown_Hazelnut , anti-ballistic missiles), and others. Some towers are about 10 meters tall, wide, and long. Others are mostly underground in some forest/farming areas and other towers are built into some reinforced public buildings and large private buildings (at least 30 stories high).

The computer systems in the towers are designed to handle nearly 400 track-via-missiles at once, which requires massively powerful and overclocked processors and radio transmitters cooled by an advanced water based cooling system with anti-freeze in the water to prevent boiling and pipe bursting. Plus, the towers are strategically placed all over the nation so there would be no area where the towers' radar can't reach. That would result in dozens of track-via-missiles being able to constantly chase enemy aircraft until either the aircraft get(s) shot down or the missiles run out of fuel.

The towers would also have radar that can locate nearby friendly or enemy ground forces. See the bottom of the page why it's needed.

I am not sure what is the realistic max range of radar.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Missiles:

Do Arrow missiles work efficiently in short range combats such as air-to-ground missiles?

I am planning on RPing the development of a firework based anti-air missile in the future. It will have a much higher light production with small amount of noise than even the most powerful fireworks, legal or illegal. The light will blind pilots temporarily so they will have a harder time avoiding anti-air missiles. They are not to be used around friendly aircraft.

Also, it is realistic for missiles to explode and spray super sticky slime that glows bright red during the daytime and bright green during the nighttime when they are close to an enemy aircraft? I know that some of the slime is going to land on the ground, but that wouldn't bother airplane/missile/bomb defense systems. The slime missiles would be useful in manually shooting down enemy aircraft that are undetectable by radar.

Two ways of firing the fireworks/slime missiles:

1. Track-via or active radar homing missiles. Perfect for crowd control when the enemy aircraft are clustered together or when the anti-air missile ammo is running low, which allows another tower or friendly aircraft to take out the glowing enemy aircraft.

2. Artillery shells set to explode at a random height if they don't hit a target, with a minimum of a certain height and the maximum of a certain height. Perfect for conserving anti-air/missile towers' processing and transmitter usage, scaring enemy pilots, and dealing with massive mobs of enemy aircraft. However, they are very inaccurate.

-----------------------------------------

Turrets:

I plan on RPing the development of anti-missile and bomb turrets after my CNRP nation's reconstruction ends. The turrets are to be built close to the anti-air craft and missile towers and connected to the towers' computer system, allowing it to use the radar to search and pinpoint the location of bombs and missiles flying toward GLS military units, turrets, or the towers. The turrets will then fire at that location and if the bomb/missile disappears from the radar, then the turrets' computer will look for the next target.

To make the turrets quick at reacting, the computer inside the turrets use the most powerful processors (yet not massive in numbers compared to the towers' processors) that are overclocked and cooled by the water cooling system inside the turrets. The wiring used in the towers and turrets are mostly fiber-optic.

Ammo type: High explosive 40 mm shells

Cooling type: Water cooling system

Wiring: Mostly fiber optic, some are copper

Firing rate: 10 shells per second on panic mode, 5 shells per second on normal mode, and 2 shells per second on ammo conserving/friendly aircraft nearby mode

To prevent the turrets from targeting the wrong object, such as birds and fragments, the computers inside the turrets are set to target anything that looks like a missile or bomb from the towers' data. If the missiles/bombs have ways of hiding from the towers' radar, then the turrets will never notice. To defend nearby friendly military forces, the turrets will fire at any missiles or bombs that come close to the friendly forces. They use the towers' radar to locate the forces.

They can also engage ground forces if ordered by the towers' operators and detectable enemy aircraft if they are flying low enough. If the operators can see the enemy ground forces or low flying aircraft, they can manually control the turrets if the radar doesn't notice the enemy. However, whether the turrets engage ground or air forces on automatic mode, they are quite accurate on the ammo conserving mode, a little inaccurate on normal mode, and very inaccurate on panic mode when there are lots of bombs or missiles targeting nearby friendly forces or the towers.

Also, in some forest/farming areas, if the towers they are connected to are mostly underground, they are designed to hide underground and pop up above ground if activated.

Edited by HHAYD

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Hi, VN.

I wanted to sound you about some things. One is fixed laser anti satellite system.

A 60GW solid state laser assembly powered by a dedicated hydroelectric power plant which tracks satellites in LEO, MEO and possibly GEOs using ranging low power lasers and finally shoots a pulse of 60GW to raise the surface temperature of the satellite to the point of melting it.

It is theoretically possible since 70's and I had done extensive RP about its development. Just wanted to sound you about it.

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Hi, VN.

I wanted to sound you about some things. One is fixed laser anti satellite system.

A 60GW solid state laser assembly powered by a dedicated hydroelectric power plant which tracks satellites in LEO, MEO and possibly GEOs using ranging low power lasers and finally shoots a pulse of 60GW to raise the surface temperature of the satellite to the point of melting it.

It is theoretically possible since 70's and I had done extensive RP about its development. Just wanted to sound you about it.

See, theoretically, it might work, but in practice it's impossible due to a ton of variables. Variables such as atmospheric conditions, accuracy, aiming etc. Just use missiles or cyber attacks.

@HHAYD; They should be manned in order to verify targets, and ensure that mistakes don't happen. The Anti-Aircraft systems you're thinking of using have been around for decades. For the towers, just make it mobile SAM sites. That'll be easier to move around and cheaper on maintenance.

Edited by Voodoo Nova

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See, theoretically, it might work, but in practice it's impossible due to a ton of variables. Variables such as atmospheric conditions, accuracy, aiming etc. Just use missiles or cyber attacks.

Atmospheric conditions and particulate matter would cause a burn through but it wont cause attenuation enough to invalidate its mission! As far as accuracy and aiming is concerned that should not be an issue. Satellite can be tracked from ground based radars, couple them with ranging laser shots, much like a photograph and you can very well track them, then only issue would be to shoot up a millisecond or micro second pulse which would do the job.

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Atmospheric conditions and particulate matter would cause a burn through but it wont cause attenuation enough to invalidate its mission! As far as accuracy and aiming is concerned that should not be an issue. Satellite can be tracked from ground based radars, couple them with ranging laser shots, much like a photograph and you can very well track them, then only issue would be to shoot up a millisecond or micro second pulse which would do the job.

Lasers are a beam of concentrated light energy. This does mean it is susceptible to atmospheric conditions. Accuracy and aiming would be a big issue because you are talking about something that is moving at ~17000mph at a 125 mile altitude to ~7000mph at a 22000 mile altitude. That is Mach 22 (4.7 miles per second) and Mach 9 (1.9 miles per second) respectively to put it into perspective. There is no laser currently on this earth that can destroy a satellite in orbit.

EDIT: Clarity

Edited by Voodoo Nova

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Lasers are a beam of concentrated light energy. This does mean it is susceptible to atmospheric conditions. Accuracy and aiming would be a big issue because you are talking about something that is moving at ~17000mph at a 125 mile altitude to ~7000mph at a 22000 mile altitude. There is no laser currently on this earth that can destroy a satellite in orbit.

China

Yes concentrated light energy and no matter how fast the satellite is traveling relative to a neutral point, relative to an earth bound system it still travels in a far less angular velocity. A few radians would cover about 5000 miles at 125 mile altitude, laser paints of satellites are common place now. The capability exists and is being used. The only issue is to create sufficient power throughput to send up the GWs of energy required for sending sufficient power to heat up the satellite.

As regards atmospheric conditions, yes it is susceptible, but not enough to attenuate it completely. The air in atmosphere and particulate matter is the main issue. Are there any other atmospheric issues? If you have sufficient power to burn through that attenuation and deliver sufficient power it is possible.

The issue is not tracking, it is only in the achieving the power throughput, which I have RPd as being completed by 2020, :)

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Satellites in Geostationary orbits have velocities of 3 Km/s but relative to a point on earth the angular velocity is Nil. As far as satellites in NEO and MEO are concerned however fast they may be traveling in orbit, relative to a ground station their relative angular velocity is much smaller, and accessible only during those periods when they are over the observer's own visual horizon. Within that horizon there is no reason why it should not be tracked!!!

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