Issues Surrounding Browncoats

[Haflinger]

Hunter was out of the loop.

Well, to be honest there's only two people who know that for sure.

The reps fit the time, and since BDC was practically absorbing BC, why not?

The reps did not fit CDT practice. Frankly it's the only time a CDT member alliance has ever DoWed over forum posts, and we do not make a practice of giving out punitive reparation awards in any case, which those clearly were.

CDT was a mistake for BDC to be involved with.

Here we have some agreement.

[Haflinger]

EDIT: Also, claiming that the war was because of the BDC people's greed is ridiculous. We had a very well functioning tech store and the only reason war would have been supported was to defend our honor. Reps? Meh, I thought it was just something trivial that came with the war.

The unprecedented term in the agreement was the "We'll forgive your reps if you join BDC." That raised a lot of eyebrows at the time, as it looked very much like a forced merger agreement. Not really what CDT wanted to be associated with, heh.

[angryraccoon]

Waiting for the counter is not what was suggested to us. That's what we agreed to do.

I remember talks in the CDT channels right before the Bubblegum War being a lot different then this.

Hunter was out of the loop.

During this time I was second in command of BDC and also completely in the blind to Zzzptm and Schatts Plans. So I really doubt that Hunter would have any knowledge that I didnt.

[Haflinger]

I remember talks in the CDT channels right before the Bubblegum War being a lot different then this.

AR, you're one of the good guys. And quite honestly, there was probably stuff going on that you didn't know about.

During this time I was second in command of BDC and also completely in the blind to Zzzptm and Schatts Plans. So I really doubt that Hunter would have any knowledge that I didnt.

You are aware of the connection between Hunter and Z, right?

[Chimaera]

You know, Schatt, if you guys would have decided to save yourselves and not fight, I wouldn't have minded. It was a suicidal war and everyone knew it, and BC had as much right to life as anyone.

But, as I've told you before, that right and my understanding of your situation was obliterated by the actions you've detailed in this thread. Nevertheless, I respect you for making it public.

[Geoffron X]

So to summarize, you made an overcomplicated plan to avoid fulfilling your treaty obligations, it didn't work, and you and your alliance was destroyed. Yeah.

Still, an interesting read.

[angryraccoon]

AR, you're one of the good guys. And quite honestly, there was probably stuff going on that you didn't know about.

You are aware of the connection between Hunter and Z, right?

Still the whole situation should have been should have been avoided. I fear I let BDC and our allies down at the time by not proactively questioning zzzptms actions.

I have known about their relations from early on.

For Schatt and zzzptm I have long ago forgiven you guys for what took place. Now I look back at it as a very interesting time and find some humor in it. All though it seems like others take it very personally and are still hurt.

[Max Beck]

The unprecedented term in the agreement was the "We'll forgive your reps if you join BDC." That raised a lot of eyebrows at the time, as it looked very much like a forced merger agreement. Not really what CDT wanted to be associated with, heh.

Maybe so, but the point was that a regular BDC member or official other than Z was unaware of what was going on.

Also yes the Coon is innocent!!! XD <3

[TheEraser]

I. Making enemies At the time, I was both a Hidden GOONS operative and a member of Browncoats. I had ridden bit performances in small alliances (ROFL, Purge) to an appearance of a clean slate (though amassing a reputation as a terriblly ascerbic troll) and garnered enough of a "resume" to keep gov positions in small alliances.

As a servant of two masters and owner of a "500-lb mouth" (~ChairmanHal), I had initiated a huge heated flamefest debate about Black team sanctions against WarriorConcept and a word-filtered GOONS gov member. Because of this, the Dark Confederate Pact--a NpO-allied Black bloc--hated my guts and had threatened war on Browncoats on more than one ocassion (their member CIS had issued the sanction and I also campaigned vehemently against DCP's incoming 2nd candidate).

what?!!?!??! i am shocked and surprised to learn that you were campaigning against the DCP To be fair DCP didnt really hate you guys that much, irrc all my pleas to roll you guys fell on deaf ears. I got the run around trying to get your expelled from BC and left it at "if this !@#$ happens again, there will be consequences" or something like that, i don't really remember. NpO was definitely trying to control the black sphere at the time, but thats b/c TPF and TOP were both trying to increase their influence there as well. IIRC TPF and NpO's interest was centered around pushing the remnants of GOONs influence off the sphere. In hind site, had i done my homework and realized you were former GOONs, we probably would have rolled you in a real war. good times....

i knew quite a bit of this already from being close to Myworld and Zzz at the time, but still an enlighting bit of info in the topic.

Dark Confederate Pact. Bad mamma-jammas.

i know this is sarcasm, but i can't help but smile. We were pretty much thugs, spearheaded by myself and a few vocal CIS members. In retro spct i'm not proud of the way i acted on the black conclave. regardless of my attitude though, i would have still wanted to war Browncoats. The whole senate stunt was, in our eyes, very shady but you played it brilliantly, and cooler heads ended up saving you guys, at least for the time being.

Edited September 2, 2009 by elborrador

[Fort Pitt]

For clarification, just because Z and Hunter know each OOC other does not mean they are best buds and tell each other every last thing.

Even if Hunter was in the loop, he would not have had a substantial impact, at the time he was just a member like myself. And the logs released clearly show that he was not involved.

Haflinger, you seem to be knowing that the war was engineered, yet you are treating it like it was not. If your goal is to save someones $@! from the chopping block, what can you really do with out forcing absorption?

The politics of the Black sphere last year are quite funny. Many powerful alliances trying to gain influence, and now were pretty much on our own, and the biggest.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Fort Pitt

[Veneke]

Just . . . lol, Veneke. If that's your best "factual hole" then 57th's perspective has bigger problems than losing their monopoly on Firefly.

No, its not the best factual hole I can point out in your skewed recollection of events. Its merely one of quite a few, which I've detailed earlier. I think Mech and CH pointed a few out as well.

It's quite obvious you weren't there. There was never anything equal about me and Schatt when it came to order of command. I remember the specific conversation somewhat. We were all a bit upset, because we knew Hallow Eyes would be away for a bit. We all looked at the charter and realized Hung Lo wasn't there, and so the authority then fell to Schattenmann. If he was unable to perform said duties for some odd reason, I was suppose to take over. I remember the conversation, we were all three there. Obviously, you were not. There were never any orders about fighting by IAA. In fact, HE was kinda busy in RL at the time. So busy he barely knew what was going on. I remember him asking quite a few questions along the way, which is how I know this. He told us to handle it and told me and Schattenmann both that Schattenmann was in charge.

And the majority, as I said before, didn't even know what the hell was going on. Of course they disapproved, they were losing pixels. They would have disapproved had we gone to war for IAA too. Most of Browncoats were mindless inactive drones, who checked in the forums once and a while when they were told to and that's about all they did besides build infrastructure. I attempted to get them more active with my academy, but that was a giant flop since nobody felt like reading the damn rules of the thing. Then when I tried to go to you or anyone else about our activity problems, you were all too damn busy arguing among yourselves.

I'm looking at the old BC boards right now, and, HE was quite clear that he left the two of ye equally in charge. He also told ye to prepare for war in the same post. If you wish, I'll pm you a screenshot.

Again, the posts on the BC boards tell a different story. Aye, there were annoyed for their pixels, but they were also seriously ticked off at what ye had done after Cybernations101 released those logs and it came to their attention. I can send you screenshots of that as well. You never once came to me about any activity problem, at any stage. Though what you expected for me to do about it (as I had left for HPS at that stage) I truly don't know. Before I left for HPS, the people were fairly active, as alliances go at any rate. At that stage I think we had close on 50 people, of which roughly 15 were active, and another 10-15 would be easily contactable. We had surprisingly few simmers in BC before HPS splintered.

[ChairmanHal]

Let me get this straight. You're saying that the sum total of your fault in the whole disaster that was BC (prior to HPS leaving) was that you couldn't get us to work together? That's fair enough, but those actions had consequences, consequences which led to the splintering of BC, and the subsequent election of HE, Ninten, Hung Lo and Schatt to the BC .gov, which culminated in the Bubblegum War. Your job, as you once told me, was to keep our disparate bunch of personalities in check and functioning (I'm paraphrasing, but I couldn't be arsed looking up the actual line). You clearly failed in that, and its not like we jumped this on you. You were told many times of the situation, and nothing was done to rectify it. If there's fault to be laid on your doorstep, its that you tried to get four highly active and opinionated people to work together, failed and seemed unable to propose any alternative. At which point you left.

Then you have conveniently forgotten at least one IRC conversation (actually I believe it was multiple) and at least one private forum rant in which I said I was flat tired of bullshiat, I expected better and I wanted an end to all farking drama. Evidently my words were lost on you and the others.

No, never accuse me of sitting on my hands while BC burned. I have owned my mistakes from those days and I'll be damned if I'll have a lack of personal responsibility or loyalty to BC on the part of others blamed on me.

I was not the reason you and the others that ended up in HPS left. That was your choice. Not Schatt's, not Durim's, not Holloweyes, no one but yours. If I point out your departure had consequences and that had things happened differently the timeline would have been altered, that's not an opinion regarding on how to assign of blame, it is a fact. If that makes you uncomfortable and wanting to point fingers, tough.

OOC: I left BC tired, looking at RL issues dealing with school and work and wanting to find a larger alliance just to hole up in until I made a decision whether I wanted to just "sim" my nation and otherwise retire permanently. You can talk about what would have happened if I had stayed and I'll tell you we wouldn't be having this conversation right now because I wouldn't be playing.

Edited September 2, 2009 by ChairmanHal

[Veneke]

Then you have conveniently forgotten at least one IRC conversation (actually I believe it was multiple) and at least one private forum rant in which I said I was flat tired of bullshiat, I expected better and I wanted an end to all farking drama. Evidently my words were lost on you and the others.

No, never accuse me of sitting on my hands while BC burned. I have owned my mistakes from those days and I'll be damned if I'll have a lack of personal responsibility or loyalty to BC on the part of others blamed on me.

I was not the reason you and the others that ended up in HPS left. That was your choice. Not Schatt's, not Durim's, not Holloweyes, no one but yours. If I point out your departure had consequences and that had things happened differently the timeline would have been altered, that's not an opinion regarding on how to assign of blame, it is a fact. If that makes you uncomfortable and wanting to point fingers, tough.

OOC: I left BC tired, looking at RL issues dealing with school and work and wanting to find a larger alliance just to hole up in until I made a decision whether I wanted to just "sim" my nation and otherwise retire permanently. You can talk about what would have happened if I had stayed and I'll tell you we wouldn't be having this conversation right now because I wouldn't be playing.

No, I don't believe I have. Aye, you said all of that. What was done though? Absolutely nothing. You could have ended all the drama very simply, throw out those who didn't fit in. Instead, you persevered with your style of government, which meant others had to take action.

No, you're right on that. You weren't the reason we left, at least, not in any direct fashion. HPS left BC because it too, wanted an end to the drama. It saw a way of doing it. Not one it liked, nor a route it particularly cared to go down, but what were the alternatives left to people who logged onto IRC or the forums every day and basically saw whining and in-fighting amongst everyone, with no clear leader willing, or able, to put things in check? A mutiny was something considered, but only briefly... it was never a seriously discussed option. This was the best of a bad situation. The part of your post I've put in bold stands true for the reverse by the way.

OOC: It might have happened differently had you told us about that during the many conversations we had about things changing/us leaving. You didn't though, and I do remember getting the impression, perhaps the wrong one, that you would have stayed on as PM had we all stayed. Personally, I doubt it, but that's just an opinion and based on the facts I had to hand at the time, and reviewing those logs, I can't say that my opinion has changed much since then.

[Haflinger]

For clarification, just because Z and Hunter know each OOC other does not mean they are best buds and tell each other every last thing.

Even if Hunter was in the loop, he would not have had a substantial impact, at the time he was just a member like myself. And the logs released clearly show that he was not involved.

Yes, it was later that he started being used as a (rather unreliable) proxy. At the time Z still had an official position and could act directly.

Haflinger, you seem to be knowing that the war was engineered, yet you are treating it like it was not. If your goal is to save someones $@! from the chopping block, what can you really do with out forcing absorption?

Umm...

I'm trying to explain CDT's reaction to the terms before we knew it was a fake war.

When we saw those terms, the general reaction around CDT was "Who are we supporting here?" To all appearances, our allies had just hit someone for a forum post, and extorted a reasonably large sum of tech and/or members from them. If we hadn't found out the real story (which admittedly made us madder) I still really doubt that BDC would have lasted long in CDT, especially given the rather dicey way in which they were brought into the bloc.

The upside is that after BDC got booted, and we lost about a third of the bloc to the various dramas that Z created, we took the opportunity to revise the charter heavily so that nothing like that can happen again.

[zzzptm]

This is quite interesting, because it suggests that NV government (who I was talking to about you at the time) weren't giving you the full story.

Reps now would be quite difficult to arrange. However I'll talk to the rest of my government, we can hold this another month or so given how long it's been.

You were placed in NV by Myworld.

Curiously enough, the last time we talked (during one of the Hunter incidents) I found myself waiting for replies from you.

Responding, but not in order...

There was one point about whether or not Hunter was in the loop: he wasn't. He had a problem with leaking at the time. I told nobody else.

... but I did talk with you. I apologize for the waiting, but at least we were able to have a meeting. And I am glad for that chance.

As for the ZI, that was long before the NV offer ever appeared to me. If it did not originate with you or another CDT alliance, it was coming from somewhere else. And, no, the reps never were mentioned. But I can talk with my alliance and Myworld about these things, as they're really not a matter of contention for me.

And, yes, in retrospect, it was a poor plan, born of desperation. Emotion did hinder my judgment - and whatever capacity you may judge my judgment, strong emotion at the time clouded it. But the Browncoats (outside of Schatt, then Durim and Nintenderek) and BDC knew nothing of the plan.

But absolutely I would pay reps. You all know where to find me.

[Kevanovia]

It was fun being IAA's MoFA at the time. Browncoats were always on the verge of a war and I got to meet a lot of cool people when trying to prevent these wars.

Although it didn't end well for Browncoats last time around, I hope they do great this time around.

[Felix von Agnu]

Wow, I thought I remember this plan being sold as a way to save the black sphere from being destroyed or something like that. Anyways, interesting read Schatt.

[Lusitan]

I'm trying to explain CDT's reaction to the terms before we knew it was a fake war.

When we saw those terms, the general reaction around CDT was "Who are we supporting here?" To all appearances, our allies had just hit someone for a forum post, and extorted a reasonably large sum of tech and/or members from them. If we hadn't found out the real story (which admittedly made us madder) I still really doubt that BDC would have lasted long in CDT, especially given the rather dicey way in which they were brought into the bloc.

The upside is that after BDC got booted, and we lost about a third of the bloc to the various dramas that Z created, we took the opportunity to revise the charter heavily so that nothing like that can happen again.

Well, I wouldn't say it was the dramas zzzptm created that caused that internal problem.. rather the children and the grandchildren of those dramas.

[ChairmanHal]

OOC: It might have happened differently had you told us about that during the many conversations we had about things changing/us leaving. You didn't though, and I do remember getting the impression, perhaps the wrong one, that you would have stayed on as PM had we all stayed. Personally, I doubt it, but that's just an opinion and based on the facts I had to hand at the time, and reviewing those logs, I can't say that my opinion has changed much since then.

I kept my OOC problem out of my IC interactions as much as possible and still do. However, after you left things got worse for me OOC. There was however a time I would have liked to stay PM of Browncoats so long as I got re-elected--and that brings up my final point.

All the Minster positions were elected positions. There was no need for a coup, no need for anything but stay and take decisive action to bring about the changes you felt were necessary. Instead you walked. Paint me as you will (you still have me wrong, but I can see I'll not convince you), and this very public conversation has revealed more about you and just how bitter you have stayed over the many months than I cared to know, but the fact remains you lost the faith. Now you and your alliance are denouncing people who thought perhaps it might be a good idea to bring back some pleasant memories and build something new.

I entered this conversation hoping to make peace. Then simply to set the record straight. Now...I find myself wondering if my endorsements of your alliance and well wishes to the 57th since its founding were worth it. That's rather sad. I will take my leave of this thread.

[Haflinger]

Well, I wouldn't say it was the dramas zzzptm created that caused that internal problem.. rather the children and the grandchildren of those dramas.

As is usual in these situations, the drama llama feeds upon itself and tends to grow.

[Schattenmann]

at the time, I was utterly furious about the browncoats incident. A year and a bit later, it just makes me sad.

Pretty much how I feel.

Indeed, I'm still grateful to whoever it was in Browncoats who leaked them though. Browncoats paid a terrible price, but at least BDC wasn't able to extort any more alliances.

Which is what was going on: BDC was arranging for tech in return for stopping the rolling of Browncoats. Once the blood tech got cancelled, Browncoats got rolled and disbanded. It's about as clear-cut a case of blackmail as you can find anywhere in Bob's history.

. . . No. It can't be extortion if as a co=conspirator I agreed to it. I had enough cash/tech on hand to handle at least 1,000 of the 5,000 all by myself. Admittedly, I got panicked that night and agreed to the cancellation of all treaties against my better judgement. But, as far as extortion, no. Reps were simply one more nasty part of a nasty plan.

So to summarize, you made an overcomplicated plan to avoid fulfilling your treaty obligations, it didn't work, and you and your alliance was destroyed. Yeah.

Still, an interesting read.

From day 1 there have been people that try to play this as a black-and-white treaty thing. Nothing on Bob is ever that simple.

Wow, I thought I remember this plan being sold as a way to save the black sphere from being destroyed or something like that. Anyways, interesting read Schatt.

There were lots of "benefits." I wanted to keep Browncoats out, keep our allies out, etc. Zzzptm wanted to keep BDC out. We both realized that if we took each other out of th eequation, then our Black ties would not be activated, and, yes, "black civil war" would be avoided.

You have to remember, at this point in history, GOONS still had one senator. Her name is filtered so I just have to say it was the Optimus Prime Minister, she was a girl, she had been a Senator before the UjW. NpO had CIS sanction her, Dark Confederate Pact had one senator and was trying for a second one, and the third seat was held by a member of TOP, then a member from the Dark Vows. As a Hidden Goon, I was also acting to keep Sara where she was.

[Haflinger]

. . . No. It can't be extortion if as a co=conspirator I agreed to it. I had enough cash/tech on hand to handle at least 1,000 of the 5,000 all by myself. Admittedly, I got panicked that night and agreed to the cancellation of all treaties against my better judgement. But, as far as extortion, no. Reps were simply one more nasty part of a nasty plan.

Umm... Successful extortion requires that the person being extorted agrees to the plan. The plan amounted to BDC saying to BC "Pay us or die"; Browncoats didn't pay them and subsequently died.

[Schattenmann]

Umm... Successful extortion requires that the person being extorted agrees to the plan. The plan amounted to BDC saying to BC "Pay us or die"; Browncoats didn't pay them and subsequently died.

Umm... Successful extortion requires that the person being extorted agrees to the plan under threat. While BC was eye-deep in the fake war by the time terms were written, it was still under Zzzptm and I's control.

The assertion that Browncaots died because the tech wasn't paid is absurd. Browncoats was killed by Dark Confederate before it had the chance to pay. The only reps that were paid were 50 tech I sent to Zzzptm. The same day the logs were dumped, and that night Browncoats was attacked.

Lamuella began working vigorously on reps payment and payment strategy the minute terms were signed even though he wanted to pull my tongue out and set my corpse on fire. They would have been paid quickly.

[TheEraser]

Umm... Successful extortion requires that the person being extorted agrees to the plan under threat. While BC was eye-deep in the fake war by the time terms were written, it was still under Zzzptm and I's control.

The assertion that Browncaots died because the tech wasn't paid is absurd. Browncoats was killed by Dark Confederate before it had the chance to pay. The only reps that were paid were 50 tech I sent to Zzzptm. The same day the logs were dumped, and that night Browncoats was attacked.

Lamuella began working vigorously on reps payment and payment strategy the minute terms were signed even though he wanted to pull my tongue out and set my corpse on fire. They would have been paid quickly.

i have to.....

hmmm.... i don't think i've been here before...

but, Schattenman is right. DCP already wanted BCs dead and when they found that they were being hoodwinked all hell broke loose. It wasn't about reps at that point, it was vengeance.

[Schattenmann]

i have to.....

hmmm.... i don't think i've been here before...

but, Schattenman is right. DCP already wanted BCs dead and when they found that they were being hoodwinked all hell broke loose. It wasn't about reps at that point, it was vengeance.

The night of the war Xeneth (former MoFA of DCP signatory ODK, and D-MoFA of CIS at the time) took lavish pleasure in rubbing the planned attack in my face an hour or so before update. When Myworld cancelled the terms between BDC and Browncoats, it left Browncoats absolutely bareassed, because one of the terms was cancellation of all Browncoats treaties. Even though I was gone from Browncoats and clearly more hated by Browncoats than any organization around, DCP declared war based on my constant thwarting of their imperialist agenda on Black, saying that they were "defending" BDC. It was all just bloodlust on their part. I still smirk knowing that even if the plan failed to secure Browncoats, every alliance in DCP managed to die within a few months of their treacherous war.