Issues Surrounding Browncoats

[Schattenmann]

If I may inquire one thing. You continue to claim that Veneke and myself were the ones holding the axe on the neck of Browncoats yet Asriel and Straightupnobull, two of the reforming members of Browncoats, left BC the same time that we did for the exact same reasons. So how is it that they bare hands clean of blood yet Veneke and myself are sullied by such gore? Surely they have some blood on their own hands, no?

As I said early in this thread, I have tried to move beyond the old grudges over and over. If we had not been in such a precarious position, and if IAA had not been so staunchly entrenched in defending HPS, Browncoats would have told you what we thought of your shenanigans via messages on bullets. I wanted to blitz the piss out of HPS.

But for me, that was a long time ago. Asriel was hopeful and happy when he left along with you. His resignation thread was almost ignorant in its upbeatness. Time has tempered my rage about it--Browncoats was gone, so why hold onto it? Asriel equally hated me for what I did. Like every other Browncoat or former Browncoat, he knew the same 1% that you linked. Time and knowledge have empered his rage, too.

57th stands here tonight and takes a squat on genuine men who want to continue--continue, not resurrect--everything that was good about Browncoats. Just as I know how vile I was even in my good intentions, Asriel has recognized the faults in his good intentions. He doens't deny history. He's legit.

We all had hands on the axe, we haven't all owned up to it.

[Veneke]

As I said early in this thread, I have tried to move beyond the old grudges over and over. If we had not been in such a precarious position, and if IAA had not been so staunchly entrenched in defending HPS, Browncoats would have told you what we thought of your shenanigans via messages on bullets. I wanted to blitz the piss out of HPS.

But for me, that was a long time ago. Asriel was hopeful and happy when he left along with you. His resignation thread was almost ignorant in its upbeatness. Time has tempered my rage about it--Browncoats was gone, so why hold onto it? Asriel equally hated me for what I did. Like every other Browncoat or former Browncoat, he knew the same 1% that you linked. Time and knowledge have empered his rage, too.

57th stands here tonight and takes a squat on genuine men who want to continue--continue, not resurrect--everything that was good about Browncoats. Just as I know how vile I was even in my good intentions, Asriel has recognized the faults in his good intentions. He doens't deny history. He's legit.

We all had hands on the axe, we haven't all owned up to it.

Ah, political point-scoring... nothing quite like it. Reeks of Schatt really.

You can't continue something that died, and the Browncoat AA well and truly died. I'm sure there's a screenshot somewhere of there being no one in the AA. There's a post on the 6th of October saying that BC has died, but no screenshot, I'll see if I can scrounge it up for you. No matter what way you play it, the Browncoat AA died, and you're here resurrecting it.

If you're referring to the Firefly ideals, then the 57th is what continued those (you'll note that we moved away from the Firefly theme during our time as HPS - out of courtesy to the then surviving BC). Once that passed on, we took up the reigns.

Please get your facts right and straight before you come 'round here trying to tell what happened to people who were there. You might fool one or two of these people reading who have no idea what it was like to live in those times, but to anyone who has a lick of sense, you're talking garbage.

[Schattenmann]

To summarize what I stated above, Zzzptm has indeed been punished; anyone who believe otherwise needs to look at the devil in the details beyond in-game punishments which only go so far and would have long been over.

I myself even got pretty frustrated/pissed with the Zzzptm situation. We were equal partners, but we weren't equal offenders. That is just politics. I got ZIed by Browncoats, and Dark Confederate, PZIed by Polar/BDC. I got sanctioned on the Black team, and had no alliance to go to. Meanwhile Zzzptm was hanging out on "Peace Mode Island" where he'd managed to escape to, since he found out that the logs were dumped before me.

In the end, the most upset I could get was this parody/contrast of Peace Mode Island:

Zzzptm and I havent' talked much at all in the past year.. Not because I got bitter, I didn't, he's a really cool guy. But just because he's been forced to take a back seat on Bob for a long time.

We paid differently, but we both paid.

[Lord Panda]

Your issues, as outlined by you in the post quoted above, are:

In your year of existence on Bob, you've never seen something as galling as this reformation of Browncoats. It's heartless and disrespectful to reform Browncoats because it was put through Hell before it disbanded. It's "morally and ethically wrong" to reform Browncoats because of the feelings of the former members of Browncoats that reside in 57th Overlanders.

You fail to recognize, even after the detailed account of 57th Overlanders hand in BRowncoats destruction, that your feelings fall in on themselves. If you're so mad at the people that had a hand in killing Browncoats, then what are you doing in an alliance that had its hand on "the axe?"

You're standing in an alliance whose foundation is Browncoat corpses, trying to condemn people with real dedication to Browncoats' memory and ideals.

Going forward?

-ChanServ- Information for channel #cnbrowncoats:

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-ChanServ- Founder: Veneke[57th]

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-ChanServ- Description: Public channel of CN's Browncoats

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-ChanServ- Registered: Sep 09 14:52:50 2008 EST

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-ChanServ- Last used: Sep 01 21:27:22 2009 EST

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-ChanServ- Last topic: Somebody put us down, I'm thinking we'll rise again | For all us Browncoats:

| A Browncoat anthem

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-ChanServ- Topic set by: Veneke[57th]

You and your "Captains" try to play the Nazarene every time Browncoats is mentioned. You also now say you're the vanguard of renewal, but at the same time you cling onto the BC channel, and dredge up ancient history to start trouble.

You're hypocritical jokes.

Let's go point by point again, shall we?

I'm going to disregard the entire first paragraph, because, honestly, you aren't saying anything.

As far as your second paragraph, you aren't getting anywhere by trying to pin the blame on Mechanus and Veneke. Them leaving has nothing to do with the disaster you brought upon BC by starting the Bubblegum War, and all the aftershocks from it rest solely on your head. Not to mention the fact that, you are also lumpng Asriel and Straightupnobull in with Mechanus and Veneke, since they left with them to go and found HPS. So, are you saying that Asriel is not a true Browncoat as well? Because that's what I'm saying, so you're basically agreeing with me.

I honestly have never been to the BC Channel, and if Veneke goes there due to feelings of nostalgia, that's his problem and not mine. As far as I'm concerned BC and HPS was the past; The 57th is the future.

I'm not dredging up ancient history to cause trouble; I'm using fact to argue my point, which is something that you have failed utterly to do in each and every post you have made towards me.

For your benefit, I'll disregard the 'hypocritical jokes' comment, because it's painfully obvious reading what you say and the bare bones facts of the fall of BC, that the only hypocrite here is you. So if I were you, I'd save myself the embarrassment and pick a new angle, because your arguments are not supported by fact. All they are comprised of are personal attacks against myself and the government of my alliance. Until you can do better, there's nothing I can do but let your writing speak for itself, which it does in spades.

So please, for all our sakes, either bring me an argument supported by fact, or just stop talking. Or you know what, don't. Just point your delusional ranting towards someone who cares for it.

In case you missed it, that wouldn't be me.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Lord Panda

[ChairmanHal]

Nonsense, ChairmanHal had little to no work in FA. That was handled by myself, Asriel and Gnarsh.

Explains the hours we spent on IRC plotting strategy...

Also explains the IRC convos with Bilrow, VanHooIII, chefjoe, reps from CIS, NPO, ArGo, and probably a few others I'm missing where I talked us out of trouble. I pulled my weight...and then some.

I did give you wide latitude. Leaders empower good people, or at least they should. As a result, we had a number of treaties and were well protected from all but a major alliance assault. Had things worked out as we discussed, UPS would have been a major player in Planet Bob politics and BC would have dominated Brown Team. It was a major change from when I first arrived and we had a simple ArGo protectorate.

It didn't "come to Hal's attention,". He was told, several times, that that was our plan unless some changes happened. They didn't, and we left. If by "business cards" you mean contacts and friends we made, then that would be reasonably correct. They were aware that Hal knew about it though, in fact, everyone in .gov knew about it. Go and ask Durim, or even Chief Stubbs (if he's still about).

In point of fact I spent a considerable amount of time talking you out of leaving and not just once. I felt like you had a natural flair for FA, even if you had the interpersonal relations skills with some of your own alliance mates of a king cobra. Yes, Schatt was more concerned about Black Team than his own alliance. Yes, he would say and do things that as someone in charge of FA would leave you feeling more like the guy that cleans up after the elephants while the circus is on parade than a FA person. Rather than leaving Schatt to finish hanging himself however, you decided that he needed disciplined--which was carried out. I'd like to say it accomplished something, but it didn't. Same for Durim and his antics, which, whether you want to believe it or not, actually placed us in far *more* jeopardy than Schatt did while I was still with BC.

Durim was Home Minister, not HollowEyes by the way. The government under ChairmanHal was Durim, myself and Mechanus. Not Holloweyes, myself and Mechanus.

True, but not completely. Durim was pretty much an empty suit (when he wasn't shooting his mouth off and nearly getting us killed by Ragnarok or CIS), which was a shame because he did so well as a recruiter. Holloweyes I think technically had some sort of adviser title, but played no role in government (RL kept him away and he didn't do IRC) until after I left, then he assumed the mantle of Prime Minister again. There were also people who had the title of Deputy Minister in various areas. It wasn't much of a government in terms of size, but seemed to work.

Side Note: HPS was a BC splinter group that really never should have existed. No, things weren't being run exactly the old "BC way" (you cannot simultaneously "fly under the radar" and be a major player in world politics), but that was no reason to leave. It *was* a reason to take the reigns of government at BC and that would have happened had you been patient. Had you and those you took with you stayed the Bubblegum War never happens and BC fights honorably along side IAA. There would be no arguing over a "revival" because BC would still be around.

All of that however is water under the bridge. Whatever our differences then, I see no point in fighting about them now. BC then was what it was...the best and the worst of times in a smallish alliance that wanted to be a medium-sized alliance with influence beyond its size. Whatever BC is now, it isn't the same alliance. Thank God for that.

[Haflinger]

Meanwhile, I surrendered Browncoats to BDC. We had planned to keep the war going for like 3 or 4 days so it looked serious, but BDC's bloodthirsty allies were chomping at the bit to attack Browncoats and Zzzptm felt he couldn't keep them at bay any longer. If they had attacked us, then MASH was going to defend us against them, and that would have made the whole thing useless. So, we ended it prematurely. I signed terms for like 5,000 tech, to cancel all Browncoats' treaties, I had to leave Browncoats and join BDC to learn a lesson about trolling, I had to write a history of the Bubblegum War RP thread, and Browncoats was to become a protectorate of BDC.

People went apecrap about the tech, but I had enough money all by myself to pay for like half of it so I didnt' think it was a big deal.

Bloodthirsty allies?

Heh. That's not CDT. Who do you mean?

VIII. External Backlash The plot revealed, all of BDC's thug allies got involved and it got messy fast. Zzzptm resigned from BDC as soon as the logs hit the OWF. NpO made BDC accept Myworld (their MoFA at the time) as a Viceroy and placed BDC under NpO protection. BDC was suspended from all of its blocs (CDT never reinstated them and I've learned they wanted to actually attack them). Myworld then repealed all of the surrender terms that Browncoats had accepted and sentenced me to PZI.

At that point, I had already left Browncoats per the terms of surrender, and then I left BDC for obvious reasons, and was simply unaligned.

The Dark Confederate Pact bloc sized up the field, and they declared war on Browncoats the next update.

At the time that Myworld protected BDC, NpO hadn't talked to CDT at all. Which was especially bad given how many of us had treaties with them at the time. If I had to put a date on the breakdown of the NpO-CDT relationship, that would be the start of it.

To his credit, I think Myworld now realizes what he did then was a mistake. You were the henchman, not the architect.

[Haflinger]

I know you mean Zzzptm and BDC, but even though Zzzptm was never PZIed or sanctioned like me, he took his licks, too. He lost all position and has never gone on from it, and his creation BDC was used as an easy target by NPO when they decided to test NpO's resolve. Even the malicious opportunist Myworld was abandoned in the aftermath, getting ZIed by NPO as BDC's Viceroy even though he was also a NpO IO at the same time.

Zzzptm learned a fast lesson, Myworld's perspective was 180ed, and I've been over my remorse a million times.

I notice he's posting NV announcements nowadays. Somehow I don't agree with this assessment of his position.

[Nintenderek]

I notice he's posting NV announcements nowadays. Somehow I don't agree with this assessment of his position.

That's something I've only noticed recently, almost a year and a half after all these events took place. Granted, I believe he was a bit inactive for other wordly reasons for part of it, but the point still stands.

[Fort Pitt]

NpO made BDC accept Myworld (their MoFA at the time) as a Viceroy and placed BDC under NpO protection.

Actually we asked NpO for protection and we even offered to take up a Viceroy. But other then that I think your 100% correct about the events.

From an active member of the former BDC, standing point, yes Z did violate a key part of being a leader, he lied to his membership and government, and he did go against allies wishes. However I do not agree with the fact that many alliances still have problems with him.

[Schattenmann]

Bloodthirsty allies?

Heh. That's not CDT. Who do you mean?.

Dark Confederate Pact. Bad mamma-jammas.

[Fort Pitt]

To his credit, I think Myworld now realizes what he did then was a mistake. You were the henchman, not the architect.

Actually after being back stabbed by NPO and allies during the start of the NPO-BDC war, he did not make a mistake.

Somehow I don't agree with this assessment of his position.

I have posted a few announcements in different alliance with out a government position. I do not believe NV has a policy about who posts the announcements, I believe that is up to the leadership.

Even if he was in a government position, I fail to see how that matters. He served his time (over a year being forced into the back seat of Bob)

Edited September 2, 2009 by Fort Pitt

[Schattenmann]

Meanwhile, how about you reply to some of the more critical questions posed instead of aptly demonstrating, once again, that you have no concept of how to honour what's gone.

What are the critical questions? I just see 57th trying to keep their racket on the Firefly game by flinging insults at Browncoats founders who have decided to bring somethig good back to Bob.

As far as your second paragraph, you aren't getting anywhere by trying to pin the blame on Mechanus and Veneke. Them leaving has nothing to do with the disaster you brought upon BC by starting the Bubblegum War, and all the aftershocks from it rest solely on your head.

I've tried to present it as logically as I could, but it's not working, so I'll let someone else do the talking:

Side Note: HPS was a BC splinter group that really never should have existed. No, things weren't being run exactly the old "BC way" (you cannot simultaneously "fly under the radar" and be a major player in world politics), but that was no reason to leave. It *was* a reason to take the reigns of government at BC and that would have happened had you been patient. Had you and those you took with you stayed the Bubblegum War never happens and BC fights honorably along side IAA. There would be no arguing over a "revival" because BC would still be around.

I clearly took the actions in Bubblegum, but it was a situation created by HPS mass-member-stripping from Browncoats.

All of that however is water under the bridge. Whatever our differences then, I see no point in fighting about them now. BC then was what it was...the best and the worst of times in a smallish alliance that wanted to be a medium-sized alliance with influence beyond its size. Whatever BC is now, it isn't the same alliance. Thank God for that.

And that's what I hope. I hope BC is not what it was before: hounded around Bob, incapacitated by inactivity, racked by internal disunity. I'm glad to see Browncoats walking Bob again because I want to see them become what they were capable of being before they were wrecked.

[ChairmanHal]

I can confirm this, anyone who believe Zzzptm has not had to deal with any consequences for his actions is completely oblivious as to what his situation was like and continues to be. Being a member of Nueva Vida's government at the time, I was extremely pissed at the antics he played; I was ready to rip his head off, eat it, then desecrate the body for good measure. I recall privately having a strongly worded conversation with Zzzptm about the ordeal, I had considered him a friend and he had completely betrayed my trust as well as countless others. Zzzptm did not try to weasel his way or explain his reasons, he simply listened and took it all in. After he listened he did something which illustrated the nature of this man; he asked for forgiveness, and I forgave him.

Upon this happening, I approached my fellow government members about trying to give Zzzptm amongst our Vidia. Our name, Nueva Vida means New Life and was founded to give the troubled lost souls of Bob a second chance. Therefore, I dug in my heels and pleaded my case with our government. From there we eventually came to a consensus, Zzzptm would be allowed to join but he would first off be admitted but watched closely. He was not permitted to partake in any alliance functions or programs nor do much for quite some time. Furthermore, he was not to be permitted into government at any point without the express consent to the parties involved in his release under our banner. And if at any moment should he slip up and cause a public escapade or issue; would be thrown out to the dogs. Even then, it took weeks or discussion with many parties whom wanted his head, our diplomatic efforts ultimately paid off. He was admitted entrance into Nueva Vida and has serve Vidia faithfully for well over a year, he has been a model Vidian and community member. Now to those whom believe Zzzptm has not been punished; there is a reason Zzzptm has not been a member of our government nor been active in the community for over a year. He still is bound by these regulations and restrictions and continues to walk this thin line as opposed to the other individuals whom have since moved on and gone on to do productive things with there careers. (Schattenmann, TWIP was magnificant; Myworld, You've turned DT into a mini-powerhouse and taken the wild Black and began to settle it with...trade rings..On black?? Inconceivable!)

To summarize what I stated above, Zzzptm has indeed been punished; anyone who believe otherwise needs to look at the devil in the details beyond in-game punishments which only go so far and would have long been over.

You say that as though Zzzptm not being in NV's government (or any government) is somehow this tremendous loss to Planet Bob. I'm sorry, but it isn't.

Also, if you continue to hold him under some sort of "house confinement" for the rest of his life that's your call. You should know that those who were serious about ZIing him (and I was one) long ago gave up on the project. Zzzptm is now ancient history to me.

[Haflinger]

Actually after being back stabbed by NPO and allies during the start of the NPO-BDC war, he did not make a mistake.

I have posted a few announcements in different alliance with out a government position. I do not believe NV has a policy about who posts the announcements, I believe that is up to the leadership.

Even if he was in a government position, I fail to see how that matters. He served his time (over a year being forced into the back seat of Bob)

You haven't had to deal with zzzptm at the backroom level. He didn't. This myth that he was cut out of the loop just because he didn't have an official title is simply a myth.

NPO was after BDC for good reasons; not quite as good as what we had, but definitely good enough. If Myworld hadn't taken on the viceroyalty and protected BDC, the NPO-BDC war would very likely have never happened.

And for the life of me, I don't know why he did it. NpO does not in general make a habit of protecting alliances that are deliberately antagonizing people that they're allied to, NpO is as well and NpO actually likes. But - nobody ever makes decisions with full knowledge of all facts of the situation, I guess.

To summarize what I stated above, Zzzptm has indeed been punished; anyone who believe otherwise needs to look at the devil in the details beyond in-game punishments which only go so far and would have long been over.

The devil in the details here would be the discussions that were opened quite some time ago about reconciling your alliance with the CDT members who were lied to, which when you discovered that we wanted more than "Oh well, he can go wherever and do whatever" led to us getting stonewalled with a more or less "do something about it" attitude and have never been reopened.

We didn't even want to ZI him. Jeez.

[Lord Panda]

I clearly took the actions in Bubblegum, but it was a situation created by HPS mass-member-stripping from Browncoats.

So, let me get this straight. You blame Mechanus and Veneke for your decision to orchestrate a war that would tear BC apart, simply because they left, and took a few people with similar ideals with them?I call shenanigans, sir, and I tire of you trying to spin everything your way and utterly failing to do so. You leaving gaping holes in your argument, and the very words you use to try and discredit me are punching them in.

I'm going to assume the obvious here, and clarify that the fact that you refused to even attempt to rebut any of my other points you either agree or can't think of a way to contradict it.

*Edited the Quote to leave the only relevant thing he said.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Lord Panda

[Fort Pitt]

You haven't had to deal with zzzptm at the backroom level. He didn't. This myth that he was cut out of the loop just because he didn't have an official title is simply a myth.

NPO was after BDC for good reasons; not quite as good as what we had, but definitely good enough. If Myworld hadn't taken on the viceroyalty and protected BDC, the NPO-BDC war would very likely have never happened.

You haven't had to deal with NPO at the backroom level. Zzzptm is a good person, he has no faults in his personality or anything of the matter. The only fault that you would see is that he does not agree with you and your allies most of the time. And at the time, you and your allies controlled the world.

You mean that if NpO hadn't protected BDC, then BDC would have been curb stomped and forced into almost disbandment and forced to pay outrageous reparations while trying to rebuild its whopping 3 or 4 nuclear nations at the time? If NPO was really after BDC because of the bubblegum war, then why did they take the time to fabricate a case that framed us for spying? I thought that CB's weren't really needed for your side of the political sphere. I guess I am wrong. The most realistic answer I can think of is that BDC stood up for NpO during the times that NPO was forcing it to change.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Fort Pitt

[Haflinger]

You haven't had to deal with NPO at the backroom level. Zzzptm is a good person, he has no faults in his personality or anything of the matter. The only fault that you would see is that he does not agree with you and your allies most of the time. And at the time, you and your allies controlled the world.

Yes, I have had to deal with NPO at the backroom level. At the time of the NPO-BDC war, I was the MoFA of an NPO MDP partner.

Zzzptm has consistently run away from discussions. Your words would have some weight to them if there was any evidence; the reality is that every time he has sought to have other people make things good for him, not put himself on the line. His policy of avoidance is not what I would look for in a shining character.

You mean that if NpO hadn't protected BDC, then BDC would have been curb stomped and forced into almost disbandment and forced to pay outrageous reparations while trying to rebuild its whopping 3 or 4 nuclear nations at the time? If NPO was really after BDC because of the bubblegum war, then why did they take the time to fabricate a case that framed us for spying? I thought that CB's weren't really needed for your side of the political sphere. I guess I am wrong. The most realistic answer I can think of is that BDC stood up for NpO during the times that NPO was forcing it to change.

Yes, because CDT has a huge history of doing that. We even tried to keep Illuminati together.

NPO was not after BDC over the bubblegum war. NPO was after BDC over other events that took place after the bubblegum war, which would not have happened if we'd been able to teach BDC a lesson. Properly.

(And yes, I do actually know why, and no I'm not telling you my former allies' secrets here.)

[TehChron]

So, let me get this straight. You blame Mechanus and Veneke for your decision to orchestrate a war that would tear BC apart, simply because they left, and took a few people with similar ideals with them?I call shenanigans, sir, and I tire of you trying to spin everything your way and utterly failing to do so. You leaving gaping holes in your argument, and the very words you use to try and discredit me are punching them in.

I'm going to assume the obvious here, and clarify that the fact that you refused to even attempt to rebut any of my other points you either agree or can't think of a way to contradict it.

*Edited the Quote to leave the only relevant thing he said.

That is...an utterly absurd reply.

I mean, damn, that's a hell of an example of selective quoting, and twisting his words to set up a great strawman. Brav-ah.

(Regarding the Bolded Section) Actually, had you bothered to educate yourself on the happenings you were ignorant of, you would have noticed that Schatt actually said that Browncoats got in the war...To avoid a larger Curbstomp at the hands of 1V. Since he wasnt dishonorable enough to cancel on IAA, but didnt want to have Browncoats destroyed simply for the sake of honoring what IAA was making into a suicide pact.

The irony is that Schatt points out that it was due to IAA's determination to defend the splinter alliance that they werent themselves wiped out for the poaching and betrayal that occurred. And after that slap to the face, IAA was more than willing to throw themselves, and their treaty partners, to the wolves for the sake of...Well...GATO calling down the whirlwind upon themselves. Unfair, yes.

Stupid? Most definitely.

Edit: Seriously, this entire situation reeks of folks who took leave of their senses getting their butts handed to them, and then some completely ignorant folks with victim complexes coming in and getting on some kind of delusional high horse about it.

You don't know what you're talking about. Empirical fact. Learn what you didnt know back then, and move on. Quit dwelling on this foolishness.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Chron

[Fort Pitt]

Yes, I have had to deal with NPO at the backroom level. At the time of the NPO-BDC war, I was the MoFA of an NPO MDP partner.

Zzzptm has consistently run away from discussions. Your words would have some weight to them if there was any evidence; the reality is that every time he has sought to have other people make things good for him, not put himself on the line. His policy of avoidance is not what I would look for in a shining character.

Yes, because CDT has a huge history of doing that. We even tried to keep Illuminati together.

NPO was not after BDC over the bubblegum war. NPO was after BDC over other events that took place after the bubblegum war, which would not have happened if we'd been able to teach BDC a lesson. Properly.

(And yes, I do actually know why, and no I'm not telling you my former allies' secrets here.)

I was putting my argument at the same level of yours, on opposite sides from the aggressor. Zzzptm in your case, NPO in mine.

I may not know Zzzptm well enough to tell you his age, or birthday, but I know him well enough on a level that he is not stupid. Many people just ignore discussions because nothing will benefit. It is like a religious debate, no matter what, you will end up still disagreeing on the same points.

I wasn't referring to CDT, but rather all of NPO and allies.

You should have worded your statement a bit better then. Curb stomping an alliance has proved to do just the opposite of what you claim it would have taught. Look at how many alliances have been curb stomped by NPO and allies, and what side they are on now, if anything they are more anti-NPO now than they were before they were stomped. You are also forgetting the fact that the truths of the Bubblegum war were not known by the government of BDC or its membership. Thus stomping BDC for something they didn't know was really happening is not going to teach us a lesson, but rather just make us dislike you and your allies.

[Lord Panda]

That is...an utterly absurd reply.

I mean, damn, that's a hell of an example of selective quoting, and twisting his words to set up a great strawman. Brav-ah.

(Regarding the Bolded Section) Actually, had you bothered to educate yourself on the happenings you were ignorant of, you would have noticed that Schatt actually said that Browncoats got in the war...To avoid a larger Curbstomp at the hands of 1V. Since he wasnt dishonorable enough to cancel on IAA, but didnt want to have Browncoats destroyed simply for the sake of honoring what IAA was making into a suicide pact.

The irony is that Schatt points out that it was due to IAA's determination to defend the splinter alliance that they werent themselves wiped out for the poaching and betrayal that occurred. And after that slap to the face, IAA was more than willing to throw themselves, and their treaty partners, to the wolves for the sake of...Well...GATO calling down the whirlwind upon themselves. Unfair, yes.

Stupid? Most definitely.

Edit: Seriously, this entire situation reeks of folks who took leave of their senses getting their butts handed to them, and then some completely ignorant folks with victim complexes coming in and getting on some kind of delusional high horse about it.

You don't know what you're talking about. Empirical fact. Learn what you didnt know back then, and move on. Quit dwelling on this foolishness.

Let's go point by point.

You called my reply absurd, but nowhere in your post do you state why it is absurd. Bravo sir, you've graduated from Political Maneuvering 101.

So let me get this straight, it's more honorable to betray your own alliance than to betray a treaty partner? Right, I'm sure Sith high command is loving this one. Oh, and by the way, getting yourself into a fake war to avoid helping out an MDP partner might be honorable for you, but it is by no means the standard by which most alliances go by. The majority tend to. You know. Help their friends, curbstomp or no. With a few notable exceptions.

Your last paragraph makes no sense after the second one is dissected and shown for the drivel it is.

Care to try again?

[Schattenmann]

So, let me get this straight. You blame Mechanus and Veneke for your decision to orchestrate a war that would tear BC apart, simply because they left, and took a few people with similar ideals with them?I call shenanigans, sir, and I tire of you trying to spin everything your way and utterly failing to do so. You leaving gaping holes in your argument, and the very words you use to try and discredit me are punching them in.

I've already said in every other post in this thread that I take full responsibility for my part in the fall of Browncoats. I have also said and maintain that I refuse to shoulder 100% of the burden, because it's not all mine to carry. That entire period was a succession of events that all influenced each other, not a bunch of isolated events that each took its own toll.

I'm going to assume the obvious here, and clarify that the fact that you refused to even attempt to rebut any of my other points you either agree or can't think of a way to contradict it.

I am basically sort of ignoring you at this point because you just aren't on the same page as everyone else in the room.

[Lord Panda]

I've already said in every other post in this thread that I take full responsibility for my part in the fall of Browncoats. I have also said and maintain that I refuse to shoulder 100% of the burden, because it's not all mine to carry. That entire period was a succession of events that all influenced each other, not a bunch of isolated events that each took its own toll.

Not particularly. The fact of the matter is that you made a bad call, which was not yours to make, and you let BC to take the fall. I swear, you have no grasp of how easy your reasoning is to deconstruct.

I am basically sort of ignoring you at this point because you just aren't on the same page as everyone else in the room.

Funny, that puts us on the same page.

[TehChron]

Let's go point by point.

You called my reply absurd, but nowhere in your post do you state why it is absurd. Bravo sir, you've graduated from Political Maneuvering 101.

Hrm.

That is...an utterly absurd reply.

I mean, damn, that's a hell of an example of selective quoting, and twisting his words to set up a great strawman. Brav-ah.

I do believe that more or less is a reason for why your post is absurd...In the second sentence of my post, no less. Of course, that was the shorthand version, the rest of my post actually goes into more detail about the logical absurdity of your conduct in this thread.

So let me get this straight, it's more honorable to betray your own alliance than to betray a treaty partner?

I used the word "honorable"? I thought I simply said that...

Since he wasnt dishonorable enough to cancel on IAA, but didnt want to have Browncoats destroyed simply for the sake of honoring what IAA was making into a suicide pact.

Here I point out that Schatt didnt meet a certain level of despicability. Hardly praising him. Moreover, as I also pointed out, the intent wasn't to betray his alliance, it was to save it from certain death. Had things gone according to plan, Browncoats would have been beaten and bruised, but a hell of a lot better off than IAA, who were the ones about to drag Browncoats into the grave with them, forcing Schatt's hand.

Right, I'm sure Sith high command is loving this one. Oh, and by the way, getting yourself into a fake war to avoid helping out an MDP partner might be honorable for you, but it is by no means the standard by which most alliances go by. The majority tend to. You know. Help their friends, curbstomp or no. With a few notable exceptions.

Hahahahaha, notable exceptions? God, you really are ignorant. So, let me guess, you'd have rather ended up like IAA, getting pounded into disbandment over a treaty chain into a situation you had nothing to do with with?

Well, if you'd rather have slit Browncoat's wrists in a less roundabout way, all the more power to ya, Mr. Martyr.

Your last paragraph makes no sense after the second one is dissected and shown for the drivel it is.

Care to try again?

Ah...Youth.

It's wasted on the hopeless.

[zzzptm]

Hello.

Just to clarify a point or two... I did not post an official NV announcement. I was being exuberant [ooc]and should have posted that in the RP forum, my bad...[/ooc]. I am an enthusiastic member of Nueva Vida, but not a member of government. I hold a minor bureaucratic role and get to gleefully soak up nukes on behalf of the alliance during wartime. Recently, some guys in NV government asked if I could take up a deputy role: the answer from on high was "no," and I abide by that decision of my own choosing.

I went to Peace Mode because I objected strongly to the notion of the ZI [ooc]and I refused to re-roll[/ooc]. I had a number of alliance leaders approach me and offer me MoFA or triumvirate positions if I would take the ZI [ooc]or re-roll[/ooc]. I was not going to go down any of those roads. I was not going to go nuke rogue. I waited for another path to take, and NV offered that path.

I'm ancient history for some that once despised me, continued to be hated by others, forgotten or forgiven by the rest. So be it. I continue to hold Schattenmann in high esteem and consider him a friend.

I am amused at how my attackers will excoriate me for actions their own allies have performed. BDC was small by world standards back then: it was too small to manufacture its own version of the truth. NPO and its allies, however, could churn away with manufactured wars far worse than anything I ever concocted with Schattenmann. Curse me and bemoan my lack of going to ZI? Hypocrisy if you don't beat the same drum for the leaders of NPO. Hate the NPO leadership and me equally? You're consistent in your standards, and I salute you for that.

All I have to say further is this: the culture of fear should not exist in this world. Revisiting the events of a year and a half ago for some seems to be an attempt to revive that culture of fear.

[ChairmanHal]

Seriously, this entire situation reeks of folks who took leave of their senses getting their butts handed to them, and then some completely ignorant folks with victim complexes coming in and getting on some kind of delusional high horse about it.

You don't know what you're talking about. Empirical fact. Learn what you didnt know back then, and move on. Quit dwelling on this foolishness.

People long ago used to ask me, "ChairmanHal, why did you retire from BC and go to Ragnarok?"

Imagine dealing with some of the contents of this thread on a daily basis. It ages a man...

One other thing that happened before the Bubblegum Crisis that hasn't been mentioned yet. Hoo got word that Browncoats had turned up on a list of alliances to be hit, along with IAA, at least a few nights before it happened (sorry don't recall the exact date). I stopped by the BC government channel (they hadn't changed the password yet) and Schatt and Durim were there.

I told them what I knew, which wasn't a whole lot, but enough for BC to get mobilized in plenty of time. I told Schatt and Durim that the best thing to do would be to put up a hell of a fight, but to surrender and not drag things out any longer than need be. BC would be seen as honorable and would almost certainly get rebuilding aid from other allies not affected by the war. I personally planned to throw my own cash into the effort.

My advise was not followed and the rest is history.