Athens Announcement

[TehChron]

The only thing that your logs show, is that someone in NPO heard it, and told whoever informed you. Which doesn't look sneaky at all.

Other than that, your logs posted before then absolutely disgust me. Never have I ever had a treaty partner treat my alliance with such disrespect. I was never spoken to about any issues, just slandered in back channels. I see what kind of allies Athens is now. All I can say is, thank you, you did us one hell of a favor.

Londo scores points whenever possible. It doesnt matter what the audience may be, but he'll try and score them.

Seriously, stop while you're still swimming. You're hammering a hole in the bottom of your own boat. When it comes down to it, you have no proof of what you've said, and 'Well we thought it!' isn't a good excuse. If you want to go that way, then I'll believe the rumor that you ordered LSF to attack us in the war. I heard it, so it's true, right?

Actually...No, the thing is, Londo is going to reply that he was right to treat you like dirt simply because a "trusted source" told him about those whatever reasons, and was justified in doing so in order to protect his alliance's soveriegnty. Or whatever. No one cares enough about this for it to really act as a net minus for him.

This thread disgusts me.

Crass opportunism at it's finest. I feel the same way.

[Hyperion321]

I acted on nothing. I duly noted your statement. Feel free to reference the military preparedness of my forces for this Spartan attack I am so fearful of receiving here.

While this digression is amusing, I stand by my point until convinced otherwise by evidence. Athens has brought the charges - the burden of proof lies with them.

I made a statement about Spartans defending our friends against character attacks. You interpreted it as a military threat, wrongfully I might add, and responded as such. You responded based on interpretation and belief that I was threatening you. The principle of your response is no different than Athens responding with a treaty cancellation to information that TSI passed things on to Athens' enemies.

I stand by my point as well: You are just as every other player in this [ooc]game[/ooc] in the sense that you are acting on interpretations and beliefs.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Hyperion321

[Londo Mollari]

The only thing that your logs show, is that someone in NPO heard it, and told whoever informed you. Which doesn't look sneaky at all.

Other than that, your logs posted before then absolutely disgust me. Never have I ever had a treaty partner treat my alliance with such disrespect.

And never before has a treaty partner blatantly compromised my trust in such a fashion.

I've provided logs that have proved both your accusations absolutely incorrect

No you haven't.

and all you've managed to do is make yourself look like you insult your allies behind their back

Insult "allies" who work against us while being treatied to us? Can such "allies" even be insulted?

and possibly spy on the NPO. Unless Athens and NPO normally talk like good old friends, which I doubt.

What?

[Augustus Autumn]

I stand by my point as well: You are just as every other player in this [ooc]game[/ooc] in the sense that you are acting on interpretations and beliefs.

You seem to have missed what I said so I'll spell it out - had I interpreted your words as a clear and present threat against my citizenry I would have taken the appropriate precautions. I did not, therefore I did not act on a perception. What I did do was note your tone and the implicit threat therein - I did not act on it. I've never claimed to be better but I won't fall into the neat round little hole you're attempting to press me into. I'm a square peg in this world.

Digression aside once more, my earlier statement stands - the burden of proof rests with Athens to back up their statements. Thus far they've twisted and rolled to avoid doing so. Jgoods did the right thing in attempting to put this matter to rest. Londo has once more returned to the old ways of slinging mud and thus this play continues.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[TehChron]

And never before has a treaty partner blatantly compromised my trust in such a fashion.

Oh, PLEASE, Londo.

Quit trying so hard to prove me right!

[Poobah]

you guys will never be happy with anything

I'd be happy if there was any sort of evidence provided instead of conversations that prove nothing. But no, this is far too much to ask for.

[Hyperion321]

What I did do was note your tone and the implicit threat therein

Except I didn't threaten you.

[Poobah]

No you haven't.

She's not the one accusing you of betraying TSI's trust and trying to slander them on the OWF.

[Bob Janova]

Funny, I was sure Tokugawa had left TSI and didn't need to paddle furiously to make them come out on top in a pointless debate. The issue is about Shurukian, it seems, and you have no more knowledge of whether that information was passed than anyone else.

It seems the NPO smear squad have targeted Athens for their next character demolition. Sorry guys, you don't control public opinion any more. Also, Bilrow using 'GGA' as an insult is the funniest thing I've heard all day, thanks for that (and yeah I know that was a while back, I've only just caught up with this mess).

[Jgoods45]

The only thing that your logs show, is that someone in NPO heard it, and told whoever informed you. Which doesn't look sneaky at all.

Other than that, your logs posted before then absolutely disgust me. Never have I ever had a treaty partner treat my alliance with such disrespect. I was never spoken to about any issues, just slandered in back channels. I see what kind of allies Athens is now. All I can say is, thank you, you did us one hell of a favor.

Do you treat all your treaty partners like this, Londo? I remember coming to you and talking to you about issues I had heard, and you didn't have the decent respect to do the same for me. Why wasn't I spoken to about such issues? I've provided logs that have proved both your accusations absolutely incorrect, and all you've managed to do is make yourself look like you insult your allies behind their back, make accusations with no proof, and possibly spy on the NPO. Unless Athens and NPO normally talk like good old friends, which I doubt.

Seriously, stop while you're still swimming. You're hammering a hole in the bottom of your own boat. When it comes down to it, you have no proof of what you've said, and 'Well we thought it!' isn't a good excuse. If you want to go that way, then I'll believe the rumor that you ordered LSF to attack us in the war. I heard it, so it's true, right?

This thread disgusts me.

EDIT::

So tell me Jgoods...

Is that what you approve of as official 'review' of an alliance treaty? I've already showed that I recieved no information from Londo about the Menatoah incident, and if anything, he lied to you, and the rest of the government about spreading information. I also told Londo that I wasn't the one referenced in mhawk's post, which it seems he also conveniently forgot to mention. So instead, we get called 'pricks' for something that we didn't even do. I love how Athens' government came to talk to me about these allegations.

And Londo knows very well that us talking about my relationship issues and his love of guns, which was our normal conversation, would not be something that TPF would be horribly interested in. And the only reason that I went to speak with him, is because he simply became too important to spend any time querying me.

I dumped nothing. I shared nothing. Any information getting passed around is your own faults, and it's time you live up to it.

We took that convo into account while doing our treaty review which has been an ongoing process since the end of the Karma War. The final decisions on the treaty reviews where made just in the past week or so after I became more active.

[Augustus Autumn]

Funny, I was sure Tokugawa had left TSI and didn't need to paddle furiously to make them come out on top in a pointless debate. The issue is about Shurukian, it seems, and you have no more knowledge of whether that information was passed than anyone else.

As someone who was a member of The Sasori Initiative at the time, I beg to differ. Next time I comment on something, Bob, I'll make sure to get your dispensation beforehand. My most sincere apologies.

[TehChron]

Funny, I was sure Tokugawa had left TSI and didn't need to paddle furiously to make them come out on top in a pointless debate. The issue is about Shurukian, it seems, and you have no more knowledge of whether that information was passed than anyone else.

Slander is Slander until proof is shown of the deed, not a bunch of guys discussing a mistaken interpretation and treating it as if it were fact on IRC.

It seems the NPO smear squad have targeted Athens for their next character demolition. Sorry guys, you don't control public opinion any more. Also, Bilrow using 'GGA' as an insult is the funniest thing I've heard all day, thanks for that (and yeah I know that was a while back, I've only just caught up with this mess).

Well, there's still the highly reasonable issues I just recently brought up. Im no Pacifican lackey, and Im as willing to laugh at Bilrow as anyone else...But to be frankly honest, this is a particularly reprehensible bit of attention whoring on Londo's part.

Edit:

We took that convo into account while doing our treaty review which has been an ongoing process since the end of the Karma War. ][The final decisions on the treaty reviews where made just in the past week or so after I became more active.

So do you know anything about that situation, or do you not? In the one hand you say something that seems to imply you know about what went down, and the next sentence you absolve yourself of any responsibility in knowing what occurred.

So, which is it? Do you know, or dont you?

Edited September 3, 2009 by Chron

[Jgoods45]

jgoods your seriously the only guy in Athens I like

awwww, your not so bad yourself. Kiss an make up?

[Bob Janova]

The funniest thing of all is that all this argument is completely pointless. TSI and Athens obviously aren't friends, and have been suspicious of each other for a couple of months – the treaty being cancelled is in the best interests of both and both should be happy about it. Really, all this arguing does is make both sides look bad ... and those in neither alliance who are trying to drive into one side or the other based on their own agendas look even worse.

[Augustus Autumn]

The funniest thing of all is that all this argument is completely pointless. TSI and Athens obviously aren't friends, and have been suspicious of each other for a couple of months – the treaty being cancelled is in the best interests of both and both should be happy about it. Really, all this arguing does is make both sides look bad ... and those in neither alliance who are trying to drive into one side or the other based on their own agendas look even worse.

Except for the piece where Londo has accused The Sasori Initiative and Shurukian of being untrustworthy. For what it's worth, Bob, you have said what ever other reasonable person in this discussion has said - had Athens simply acknowledged that the treaty was effectively dead and moved along nicely then there would be no problem. They chose to make an issue of it and, thus, issue delivered.

We're still waiting on that damning evidence, by the by.

[Bilrow]

The funniest thing of all is that all this argument is completely pointless. TSI and Athens obviously aren't friends, and have been suspicious of each other for a couple of months – the treaty being cancelled is in the best interests of both and both should be happy about it. Really, all this arguing does is make both sides look bad ... and those in neither alliance who are trying to drive into one side or the other based on their own agendas look even worse.

Then maybe Athens shouldn't have told the whole world and kept it between TSI and Athens. Last I looked every leader from the planet was allowed to give their opinion on things brought to the world stage.

[OOC]No agenda on my part, just bored.[/OOC]

Edited September 3, 2009 by Bilrow

[Vilien]

The funniest thing of all is that all this argument is completely pointless. TSI and Athens obviously aren't friends, and have been suspicious of each other for a couple of months – the treaty being cancelled is in the best interests of both and both should be happy about it. Really, all this arguing does is make both sides look bad ... and those in neither alliance who are trying to drive into one side or the other based on their own agendas look even worse.

The voice of reason speaks again.

[TehChron]

The funniest thing of all is that all this argument is completely pointless. TSI and Athens obviously aren't friends, and have been suspicious of each other for a couple of months – the treaty being cancelled is in the best interests of both and both should be happy about it. Really, all this arguing does is make both sides look bad ... and those in neither alliance who are trying to drive into one side or the other based on their own agendas look even worse.

It doesnt make Athens look bad at all, Janova, as Athens has that lovely little plausible deniability defense which allows them to further play the victim card if it were to be proven that Athen's accusations really were a load of nonsense.

And dont try and dismiss individuals who legitimately call out this situation for what it is as mere...manipulators, I guess? Because that kind of blanket accusation is just weak on your part.

[Shurukian]

And never before has a treaty partner blatantly compromised my trust in such a fashion.

You wrongly accuse me, and don't even think to ask me about it? Yes, I must believe EVERYTHING I hear from outside sources about my treaty partners. Especially nothing with evidence.

No you haven't.

Lets see. First we'll go with Menatoah:

23:32… Shurukian[TSI]: Soooooooooooooooooooo, heard you're going to war tonight.

23:32… × Shurukian[TSI] points to the PIAT

23:32… Londo|away: oh my

23:32… × Shurukian[TSI] brushes the dust off of it

23:32… Londo|away: hey Shuru

23:32… Londo|away: yeah we may

23:32… Shurukian[TSI]: Hmmm, any reason why?

23:38… × Shurukian[TSI] crawls back into the corner

23:38… Shurukian[TSI]: I can wait.

23:46… Londo|away: hey

23:46… Londo|away: yeah, recruiting

23:47… Londo|away: also I have to go to bed soon

23:47… Londo|away: D:

23:47… Shurukian[TSI]: recruiting?

23:47… Londo|away: from us

23:48… Shurukian[TSI]: Hmmm, that's odd

23:48… Shurukian[TSI]: Who's recruiting?

00:00… Day changed to Friday, July 17th 2009.

Session Time: Fri Jul 17 00:00:01 2009

00:00… Londo|away has quit IRC (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference)

So according to you, you told me nothing, I then read your mind, and then proceeded to go tell TPF all about your evil plan. Because there is no way on this planet that TOOL would have informed their MDoAP partner that Athens was acting aggressively and threatening war.

Now, we will move on to the allegations of me telling TPF that you were 'bragging'.

07:59… Shurukian[TSI]: Hello, you around?

07:59… Londo: Yeah.

07:59… Shurukian[TSI]: [rescinded] told me we need to talk.

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: Okay, I just woke up, it's 8AM here, so I have no idea what's going on.

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: Let me find this thread.

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: I'm told that I'm accused of sharing information?

08:00… Londo: mhawk seemed to indicate that

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: Yeah, well mhawk's a dumb*** sometimes.

08:00… Shurukian[TSI]: Okay, let me find this.

08:02… Shurukian[TSI]: You don't happen to have a link or a knowledge of what page his post was on?

08:02… Londo: kk

08:02… Londo: haha

08:02… Londo: that thread moved so fast

08:02… Londo: I'm afraid I don't

08:02… Londo: maybe

08:02… Londo: page 28 or 29

08:02… Londo: as a guess

08:08… Shurukian[TSI]: Well, that was a nice rebuttal.

08:08… Londo: which?

08:08… Shurukian[TSI]: First of all, he has no logs. If he did, he would have posted them, because he's retarted like that. Second, I didn't tell him anything.

08:08… Londo: lol

08:09… Londo: he acted like you did

08:09… Shurukian[TSI]: Sadly, I refuse to talk to mhawk on IRC, so I have no logs. We simply talk on skype. I'll tell you what happened.

08:09… Londo: and the content was sort of there

08:10… Shurukian[TSI]: Two days ago after work, I talked to him, mainly about OOC stuff. I asked him what's been up with TPF, and we got on to allies. I told him that we'd be working with you guys to get our concerns out, and that we'd be dropping GRAN.

08:10… Shurukian[TSI]: when I mentioned you, he brought up the terms.

08:10… Shurukian[TSI]: And went on a 45 minute rant.

08:10… Shurukian[TSI]: At one point, he was talking about them, and I said, "Well, NPO didn't treat Athens too nice in the past." he responded with, "

08:11… Shurukian[TSI]: "So what, is this about revenge?" I said "Well, I'm just saying, I didn't say that."

08:11… Shurukian[TSI]: So he continued his rant.

08:11… Londo: lol

08:11… Shurukian[TSI]: i fell asleep, so he let me go to bed.

08:11… Shurukian[TSI]: Last night, we were able to talk for a short amount before I called [rescinded].

08:12… Shurukian[TSI]: And he told me he was all excited, that they had all this proof that you had egineered the terms for revenge

08:12… Shurukian[TSI]: and that trotsky and him were working on a post

08:12… Londo: what a pack of retards.

08:12… Londo: I was the one working to get them terms

08:13… Londo: lol

08:13… Shurukian[TSI]: I was too upset wtih [recinded] and I's fight to bother with it, and just kind of told him not to do anything stupid, joked about rolling the hard six, and left

08:13… Londo: lolol

08:13… Shurukian[TSI]: I refuse to talk to him on IRC, cause it takes him an hour to respond to anything you say.

08:15… Shurukian[TSI]: I can tell you right now, if he had logs, 1. He would have posted them, and 2. He would have seen the part about you being the only one to get the reps started.

08:15… Shurukian[TSI]: I told you, I don't share logs.

08:15… Shurukian[TSI]: It was a passing mention in a conversation that I spent most of my time asleep during

08:15… Shurukian[TSI]: Though mhawk is close to a genius, he lacks common sense sometimes. tongue.gif

08:16… Shurukian[TSI]: So that's probably what his "it came out" reference was.

08:18… Shurukian[TSI]: Londo,everyone has thought this would be a revenge thing.

Later:

08:35… Shurukian[TSI]: I'll try to figure out where mhawk got all this stuff from.

08:35… Londo: lol

08:35… Londo: I'd really appreciate that.

08:35… Shurukian[TSI]: cause when I told [rescinded] last night, that was his big question too

08:36… Shurukian[TSI]: And I had to tell him I didn't know

08:36… Londo: Because I can't imagine having said anything like that.

08:36… Shurukian[TSI]: You can ask [rescinded], I told him all about mhawk's big thing last night

08:36… Londo: And hell even if I did.

08:36… Londo: So what?

08:36… Londo: I'm still the one trying to get them terms

08:36… Londo: and better ones at that.

08:36… Shurukian[TSI]: mhm

08:36… Londo: :-p

08:36… Londo: But no I don't remember saying anything like that

08:37… Shurukian[TSI]: Well, I say stupid !@#$ and don't expect it to get anywhere.

08:37… Shurukian[TSI]: Everyone does.

08:37… Shurukian[TSI]: I'll ask.

08:38… Londo: thanks

The next day:

18:27… Londo: Back

18:27… Londo: Shurukian[TSI]

18:37… Shurukian[TSI] is now known as Shurukian[bRB]

19:18… Shurukian[bRB]: hey

19:18… Shurukian[bRB]: sorry

19:18… Shurukian[bRB]: I found out who that post was referencing

19:18… Shurukian[bRB] is now known as Shurukian[TSI]

19:18… Shurukian[TSI]: You here?

19:18… Londo: yes

19:18… Shurukian[TSI]: It wasn't referencing me

19:18… Shurukian[TSI]: the mutual friend post

19:19… Shurukian[TSI]: it was referencing mary

19:21… Londo: Very odd.

19:21… Londo: But ah well.

19:21… Londo: @_@

When I later reviewed the post, the information in question wasn't the revenge aspect, but that I had supposedly said that Londo was 'bragging' about the NPO terms. The story? Mary got upset about how Londo was throwing around that he was the only one working on terms, and that he was doing so good to them, and took it as bragging, and him trying to shove it in their face. She got mad, and talked about it. End of story.

What strikes me as funny, is that even though I informed you that it was supposedly Mary that told mhawk this, you neglected to tell your government about this, and kept it to yourself. Was I just a convenient target? Or did you simply lie to me in your trust?

Insult "allies" who work against us while being treatied to us? Can such "allies" even be insulted?

There's one thing I have to say to this.

Prove it.

I'm sick of offering proof and have you offer nothing but avoidance and your honorable word.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Shurukian

[Hyperion321]

Well, there's still the highly reasonable issues I just recently brought up. Im no Pacifican lackey, and Im as willing to laugh at Bilrow as anyone else...But to be frankly honest, this is a particularly reprehensible bit of attention whoring on Londo's part.

Usually I'm not one who likes to respond to people with pointless quips, but a member of NSO accusing somebody of attention whoring is laughable.

[Tobirama Senju]

And never before has a treaty partner blatantly compromised my trust in such a fashion.

ooc/ And never before have I seen a treaty partner speak soooo poorly of an ally while they were still treatied. The disrespectful attitude displayed towards TSI in those logs between Athens gov were while Athens and TSI still had an active treaty. Also this disrespectul back channel discussion about TSI began in JUNE, two months before the actual cancellation of the treaty took place. /ooc

[Haflinger]

Funny, I was sure Tokugawa had left TSI and didn't need to paddle furiously to make them come out on top in a pointless debate. The issue is about Shurukian, it seems, and you have no more knowledge of whether that information was passed than anyone else.

The reasons given for the cancellation are based on events which allegedly took place while Tokugawa was in government there.

[Jgoods45]

Slander is Slander until proof is shown of the deed, not a bunch of guys discussing a mistaken interpretation and treating it as if it were fact on IRC.

Well, there's still the highly reasonable issues I just recently brought up. Im no Pacifican lackey, and Im as willing to laugh at Bilrow as anyone else...But to be frankly honest, this is a particularly reprehensible bit of attention whoring on Londo's part.

Edit:

So do you know anything about that situation, or do you not? In the one hand you say something that seems to imply you know about what went down, and the next sentence you absolve yourself of any responsibility in knowing what occurred.

So, which is it? Do you know, or dont you?

I know everything that went down. That convo took place in late July to early August in our government channel. I dont have the exact date because I dont have the logs on this computer. The decision to cancel the treaty was made a within the past week or so. It expires at update on September 3rd.

[Augustus Autumn]

I know everything that went down. That convo took place in late July to early August in our government channel. I dont have the exact date because I dont have the logs on this computer. The decision to cancel the treaty was made a within the past week or so. It expires at update on September 3rd.

Jgoods, I like you a lot (). You're one of the few people left in Athens after this disaster that I still respect. Still, it comes down to proof. Enough people have called out Athens on this. Provide it and back up the allegations or apologize for making them and walk away. This really is one of those times when saying "I'm sorry, it wasn't meant that way, we apologize" will end a lot of issues.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[TehChron]

Usually I'm not one who likes to respond to people with pointless quips, but a member of NSO accusing somebody of attention whoring is laughable.

Unlike you lot, we're pretty open about our intentions, and dont try hide behind petty excuses like "How was I supposed to know my anonymous source was wrong without fact-checking beforehand?"

Please. And don't even try and drag my alliance into this, that's just petty of you.