TGE Aggression

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

I have been reading this on and off for most of the day, as and when updated. Considering Kfred to be a friend of long standing, i am pained to say this. TGE members, your display here has been subpar. The way you have gone after GraniteKnight on a personal level, calling him a Lunatic and other such drivel, is not becoming of those that belong to what i remember the TGE to be. If anything you ought to have taken a cue from your Kaiser in the decency of his words.

Whether what GraniteKnight has to say is correct or not, there is simply no excuse for your loss of composure. The veracity or otherwise of the claims made here and the allegations leveled is something which may or may not come to light either here or in other settings. Your behavior makes me a little less proud of having been a part of the empire back in the day, something i did not wish for.

[Captain Flinders]

lol, this is great. Of course this guy, this complete and utter clown prancing about the forums spewing verbal diarrhea from every orifice, is suddenly great friends with every seedy & underhanded character on Planet Bob.

Hold the phone. Who are you calling seedy and underhanded? I should hope you're not referring to myself or my allies and friends or we're likely to have an issue. That is, beyond the issues TGE already has.

Yeah, TGE shouldn't have suggested EU join us in the blackout. I don't understand why it was suggested but apparently it was, and meddling in other people's business is always bad practice imo... but we'll own up to it.

And hypothetically, what would TGE have done should they not follow suit with the blackout? We all know TGE to be of a rather vindictive and volatile nature especially against those who they may be statistically or politically above.

[Sigurd Odinnson]

lol, this is great. Of course this guy, this complete and utter clown prancing about the forums spewing verbal diarrhea from every orifice, is suddenly great friends with every seedy & underhanded character on Planet Bob.

I would expect better of my successor. When I was Minister of Propaganda I tried to remain positive, and when on the attack focused myself on the individual in question, not those around him-- your art is good (better than mine, in many cases), but your propaganda needs some work. PM me some time maybe we can share some ideas and I can give you some pointers. Remember: the goal of Propaganda is to appeal to the pathos of the crowd and turn them in favour of your alliance. This is key: know the pathos.

-----------------------------------

As for this whole mess, I suppose I ought to throw my two cents in as a former TGE member. Further, I have been asked to comment by a friend.

I have no love for Frederick; he was someone I regarded as a friend who betrayed me out of paranoia-- I honestly felt some empathy for [ooc] Ernst Röhm [/ooc]after the whole affair. Nor have I any especial regard for many of the present members of the TGE government. I say this not to stir emotion but rather because I feel I should be honest and forthright.

Nevertheless, from what I have read, it seems to me that this is a situation better left to sit, unless TGE wants to pursue it more. I have seen quite a number of "post deleted" edits in the course of all of this-- I would hope that cooler heads will prevail in this situation ultimately and TGE and EU be left to make their own bad decisions. Everyone will reap the consequences of their decisions, and if EU truly are throwing themselves to the wolves, then let them be devoured. I believe firmly that they are being foolish by siding so vigourously with TGE-- but that is my personal opinion, and I, along with everyone else who has taken the anti-TGE side here, may end up being wrong. I don't think we will, but we might be.

My advice to Michigans Own is to do what he seems best, he's been sorely mistreated by TGE now and in the past. It is his business to be upset with the situation as much as it is EU's business if they want to throw in with TGE.

I think it goes without saying, of course, that everything I and Flinders have said is spoken as private individuals with pasts tied to TGE-- we do not speak on behalf of Nordreich, which has no opinion of the situation.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Sigurd Odhinnson

[Augustus Autumn]

...I have seen quite a number of "post deleted" edits in the course of all of this..

Ivan III decided to act foolishly, then withdrew it. I won't punish someone when they've recognized their error and have made corrections.

Edit: Grammar

Edited August 25, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[kingzog]

Baron is not calling Fritz a "Lunatic". He is calling graniteknight (or whatever his lousy name is) a "lunatic".

No way. Really?

Hey, I also hear that in TGE sarcasm is outlawed because nobody can recognize it. Is this true?

Hold the phone. Who are you calling seedy and underhanded?

You, me, a bunch of others. I thought it was fairly clear. Stupid, but clear.

Edited August 25, 2009 by kingzog

[lordliam]

Only thing I can say is, not good.

[Captain Flinders]

You, me, a bunch of others. I thought it was fairly clear. Stupid, but clear.

I figured as much. I was just taken aback at how up to that point the name calling and insults had been to a bare minimum and all he felt he could offer was crudity. I thought better of him unfortunately.

[AironthFlamewing]

Claims have been made that The German Empire has changed its behavior over the course of the past year in regards to protectorates. Let's take a look at the treatment of protectorates then and how they've not been using them as member farms. I'll be addressing the points in numerical order so feel free to follow along using documents 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Articles 1-4: Standard protectorate stuff. A good start. Very well reasoned despite some flowery language.

Article 5: Colony? I thought this was a protectorate agreement.

Articles 6-7: Again, standard stuff about keeping up the protectorate agreement.

Article 8: A provision for if the colony fails outlining that its membership can be shipped into the protector alliance.

Article 9: The colony is expected to engage in tech deals on demand as well as send military assistance to the protector? Sounds rather like a farm to me.

Article 10: Here are all the ways a colony can be kicked to the curb. The bit about "stagnation" being a condition for losing protection, such as it were, from The German Empire is especially amusing.

Article 11: The wording on this is a little tricky - it implies that a colony can be removed for not informing the The German Empire of an attack they execute, but also implies that they can be expelled for not promptly reporting being attacked.

Article 12: Something about appealing decisions and supposed independence of a chairperson.

Article 13: This is the fun one. Should a colony actually survive on its own for six weeks with no promised protection and, in fact, being obligated to come running should The German Empire get attacked, THEN they can apply to be optionally protected by the alliance. So, in effect, this entire document is basically a setup for a farm alliance which can be turned into an actual alliance later if the Germans find themselves to be so gracious. So, in effect, the entire document is basically not worth the text in it.

Article 14-15: Standard stuff.

This document is from two months ago. The German Empire has been engaging in the funding of projects like this since June of 2008. How does this demonstrate changed behavior?

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Edited August 26, 2009 by graniteknight

[tyerial]

So the plot thinkens....

[Reinhard Scheer]

I get word about this and on first glace, I'm utterly appalled. Jordan/GK - you misunderstand or you are simply twisting my words (more likely) - I didnt want any of you guys as "farms." That's what actually rankles the most from your post. I actually knew most of the leaders and that wasn't my intention - but we had 5 colonies/whatever on the books and you yourself would admit that TKP was a failed entity.

The whole thing was a error of judgment and the whole purpose of this document you posted was to try to curb any further expansion. In a way it worked and my last act as Minister of Colonial Affairs was to bring down the curtain on the whole thing.The surviving members were granted PIAT's (TRE & tCoC) and that is the current protection policy of TGE. Not this document. It is redundant because Mitteleuropa no longer exists.

I have dragged this off topic - on the matter of blackouts and the like I will say that I disagree with that. My judgment is often shaky and things are not always as clear-cut as they might seem - propaganda exists for a reason and I have used it many times but propaganda is only ever my truth and not always an absolute truth such as death and taxes.

I had a part to play in many of these events and I think it imperative for people to come to some form of detente now. There is no cause for banning and slandering people you dont know or for RL friends falling out. End this ludicrous ban and the cold-war because its not worth it - its utterly redundant.

There have been many times when I did some stupid things myself because I thought it was the right thing to do at the time but it turned the game into a miserable chore. Much of invective against TGE should be aimed towards me as I acted as head of security and, for a time, Minister for the Colonies there on and off over the course of fourteen months. I own up fully to mistakes made and apologize unreservedly for serious errors of judgment on my part.

Reinhard Scheer/ Col. Kurtz, etc.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Reinhard Scheer

[Augustus Autumn]

Scheer / Kurtz / Carrigy / Whatever other name you'll exist under,

Don't even attempt, for a second, to play the part of some wounded hero. It won't do well for you. You are, after all, the Kaiser's agent. Perhaps you help him from time to time?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Reinhard Scheer]

Scheer / Kurtz / Carrigy / Whatever other name you'll exist under,

Don't even attempt, for a second, to play the part of some wounded hero. It won't do well for you. You are, after all, the Kaiser's agent. Perhaps you help him from time to time?

Which I accept as mentioned in my post - I was head of security there and I am owning up to the fact. I simply offer my apologies to those I unjustly offended but am not expecting a round of applause from the gallery. I see some of the stuff being said here and the criticism should be properly placed - partly towards me certainly. Its not right I avoid the blame and I own up to that but its up to others to judge whether I'm being sincere. I am but its your right to disagree and you have your own reasons to do so. You can email me for a chat if you so wish.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Reinhard Scheer

[Captain Flinders]

When people run down people like Capt. Flinder's they do so without realizing he was perhaps one of the best member I've seen in the Empire. And the same goes with RoA.

And yet I can still feel the scar from the knife you placed so nicely in my back. Nice wall of text though. Doesn't change the fact that what TGE has been doing to small alliances with leaders that may not know better is terribly unbalanced and plain out wrong.

[Augustus Autumn]

Which I accept as mentioned in my post - I was head of security there and I am owning up to the fact that many of my actions were unjustified and totally out of order. I simply offer my apologies to those I offended but am not expecting a round of applause from the gallery. I see some of the stuff being said here and the criticism should be properly placed - partly towards me certainly. Its not right I avoid the blame and I own up to that but its up to others to judge whether I'm being sincere. I am but its your right to disagree and you have justifiable reasons to do so. You can email me for a chat if you so wish.

I'm referencing claims made recently by Frederick II about you - in light of your "rogue" action against a member of RoA it thickens the plot a tad more. The fact that I personally vouched for you at one point certainly does stick a bit but that's hardly relevant here - what is relevant is that you've effectively served as an agent provocateur for your Kaiser and are attempting to pass off some bland apology without actually owning up to anything. I'm seeing your name on a set of documents which effectively bend alliances over the proverbial desk for the purposes of them being ransacked by your alliance. I'm seeing you launching "rogue" attacks on former members of your alliance. When precisely does your apology become sincere?

[Reinhard Scheer]

And yet I can still feel the scar from the knife you placed so nicely in my back.

I should have said straight to your face I was in opposition to you but I fell back on convention. C'est la vie.

I was Minister for Colonial Affairs during the whole Mitteleuropa disaster and it was a shambles. Poorly thought out and left to me to try and turn into a functioning entity. We were utterly incapable of taking on half-a-dozen protectorates or colonies or whatever but I should have been upfront about what was going on -it was my responsibility and I handled it badly.

I'm referencing claims made recently by Frederick II...

Accepted. The attack on Mao/Admiral Band was a stupid stunt but I thought he was deleting his nation in accordance with his nation bio. I always got on well with the guy but in this instance, I had no malicious intent and hope my reparations to RoA goes some way to making up for that. I have apologized through their MoFA for the act.

As for Fred's claim I was his 'agent' - that is a gross distortion of my role in TGE and overlooks much of my other work in Empire. I'm not going to whine about it and glibly say I was following orders. If that's what he and others think - than so be it. I acted in accordance to the prevailing climate at the time and made human mistakes and errors of judgment. Its time I owned up to my actions - even at the end when it should have been done much earlier and offer apologies where they are due. If you vouched for me then I believe I repaid TSI - when some of their nations turned tail on the eve of battle I was first into the trenches and then kept going with TPF afterwards until my nation was obliterated. A small thing perhaps but worth remembering.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Reinhard Scheer

[nosoup4you]

Reps have been made and damages forgotten. Your apology is appreciated and I am sure heartfelt. We only wish to put all of this behind us and exist in peace. I hope that this silly blackout does not extend to your current alliance, Herr Scheer, as I do enjoy speaking with you.

Edited August 26, 2009 by nosoup4you

[Penkala]

Is there any way we can work RAD, IS or PC into this story?

Bob needs its villians.

You left out TPF, fine sir.

[Ivan III]

Ivan III decided to act foolishly, then withdrew it. I won't punish someone when they've recognized their error and have made corrections.

Edit: Grammar

The only reason I withdrew it was because I worded it wrong and i didn't know as much as you did. Also, there where some hurtful things I said in there and so I didn't want that up there any longer.

No way. Really?

Hey, I also hear that in TGE sarcasm is outlawed because nobody can recognize it. Is this true?

You, me, a bunch of others. I thought it was fairly clear. Stupid, but clear.

What are you talking about? I use sarcasm all the time and nothing happens. heck, Practically 30-38% of the people in TGE use sarcasm, nothing happens to them.

But the part I love here is that TGE has been on the defencive and we chose to be the bigger person and stop attacking.

I have done some (More) research into this matter from both sides of the argument and found that the reason for the black out was because RoA was trying to bait us. Why? I have absolutely no clue. That's why this is happening and that's the end of it. I'm also a little shocked as to why people hate TGE so much. Oh wait now i remember, thing is I can't say it here (I may make it a bit rude so i don't want the Mods to get me )

Listen, many people don't like Fred; if that is why you hate TGE, you don't have a sense of good judgement. As everyone knows every person is different. heck, if I was in Fred's position, I would be doing a lot of things differently. It's all on a person's views. So, if you wish to attack Fred (Verbally) fine, but don't generalize TGE. We are a bunch of good, hardworking people. I would also like to point out that TGE has mostly remain silent during this debate. Why? because this is the same debate as when TGE announced the new charter. Same thing. I leave now hopping that this doesn't become more violent.

Ivan

[Captain Flinders]

Listen, many people don't like Fred; if that is why you hate TGE, you don't have a sense of good judgement. As everyone knows every person is different. heck, if I was in Fred's position, I would be doing a lot of things differently. It's all on a person's views. So, if you wish to attack Fred (Verbally) fine, but don't generalize TGE. We are a bunch of good, hardworking people. I would also like to point out that TGE has mostly remain silent during this debate. Why? because this is the same debate as when TGE announced the new charter. Same thing. I leave now hopping that this doesn't become more violent.

The day TGE becomes a hardworking group of good people is the day you all realize that the flawed Kaiser only holds you back and remove him from office.

[Ivan III]

The day TGE becomes a hardworking group of good people is the day you all realize that the flawed Kaiser only holds you back and remove him from office.

Ok see, that's what I am talking about!

You generalize us (I am an Imperial Citizen) and I am hard working with TGE's newspaper.

I think the reason why every is at each other's throats is because people on both sides are geralizing both parties here. and we can't get rid of Fred, not until I become popular in TGE for me to take over

[Captain Flinders]

Ok see, that's what I am talking about!

You generalize us (I am an Imperial Citizen) and I am hard working with TGE's newspaper.

I think the reason why every is at each other's throats is because people on both sides are geralizing both parties here. and we can't get rid of Fred, not until I become popular in TGE for me to take over

You can laugh it off if you want but many, many more powerful and informed people have realized the fatal flaw of TGE. They have either tried to remedy it or left knowing it is futile while the core membership is so apathetic.

[Ivan III]

You can laugh it off if you want but many, many more powerful and informed people have realized the fatal flaw of TGE. They have either tried to remedy it or left knowing it is futile while the core membership is so apathetic.

OK, so lets say TGE's membership wanted to get rid of Fritz. How can we do that? we cant! he has all the power, if we couped him (Tried at least) WAPA would get involved and help out Fritz. We can't do that, and frankly, most of us like Fritz. He's funny, and a strong leader. I don't know what he was like before I joined but everything you are saying is false to this day. People can change, just as how you changed. From you being (Most likely) a happy person, to a twisted sour person who hates TGE and generalizes alliances.

I have changed too. I was once a hot headed person who blew up on anything people didn't agree with me on. I saw that that was wrong and changed. I know have a different policies here.

1) If you don't know the person, don't judge them.

2) If you don't know the alliance, judge the leaders and not the people.

3) generalizing can lead to bad things down the road. (War, black outs etc.)

4) The only way you get respect is if you respect someone else

5) someone does not give you respect, you don't give it back but try to be civil.

Those are my guild lines here and i try to follow them. And that's how I changed.

[Captain Flinders]

OK, so lets say TGE's membership wanted to get rid of Fritz. How can we do that? we cant! he has all the power, if we couped him (Tried at least) WAPA would get involved and help out Fritz.

If you really want me to walk you through it I can. Though if you joined #tsi or #roa you could probably get about one hundred different ways of doing it since that's where all the evil saboteurs and coup planners lurk (as labeled by your government mind you). Hell, you could even ask Scheer or whatever he's calling himself these days. He was almost the military portion of a coup until he misplaced his balls. I'm honestly surprised he's back in there again considering his tenancy to waffle so frequently and violently.

I don't know what he was like before I joined but everything you are saying is false to this day. People can change, just as how you changed. From you being (Most likely) a happy person, to a twisted sour person who hates TGE and generalizes alliances.

Let's be realistic here. Unless you are a re roll, you have been here for a few months. You cannot possibly have a rounded understanding of who I am or what TGE has done under the flawed Kaiser's leadership. I've been in TGE twice and both times worked for the betterment of the alliance. Please, please do not speak of things you have no knowledge of. And you should know that nothing makes me happier than dealing with the next batch of TGE's yes-men. You complete me.

[Reinhard Scheer]

From you being (Most likely) a happy person, to a twisted sour person who hates TGE and generalizes alliances.

When speaking on the OWF and answering criticism, whether constructive or otherwise, you need to use a certain amount of decorum as you represent your alliance here. OOC attacks on people don't win you brownie point nor does perambulating around the idea of how to coup your leader. As I wrote swathes of the current constitution myself, the reality is that TGE role-play an actual Empire where the monarch holds power until such time as he dies or abdicates. As he has always been the forum moderator you could set up your own and call yourself TGE mark II if you wish. Thats the reality. Simply put, you can't coup him because it then stops being TGE (which is more or less copyrighted to Fred) and I doubt very much WAPA will get involved in a civil war. The only other option is forming your own Alliance.

And no, I'm not back in TGE. I have my own little alliance in accordance to what I said above. Excuse the waffle.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Reinhard Scheer

[AironthFlamewing]

When I looked at your nation last night Mr Scheer your alliance was TGE